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post #91 of 661 Old 02-18-2009, 12:28 PM
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Mystery 12's eh?

Wouldn't happen to be those new Audio Pulse LMS 12's? Nah.. I can't picture you using those for some reason..
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post #92 of 661 Old 02-18-2009, 01:10 PM
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I'm gonna guess some AE AV12's... I'd say Shiva X's but I just don't think that's the case.
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post #93 of 661 Old 02-18-2009, 02:36 PM
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My suggestion for you to name the brown sub is The Oriole.

Haha, just kidding a little Baltimore joke there.

Seriously, it's hard to come up with a name that sounds as cool as "The Raven"
If you want to keep with the brid-color match theme you could use "The Hawk"
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post #94 of 661 Old 02-18-2009, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

How about "The Muse" or "The Scoria"?

Care to elaborate on the 7 month debacle with the AA V5001?

It goes something like this:

Sherv receives the amp which has no plug on the cord. He buys a 15A plug and installs it and runs a sweep or two and plays some movies etc.

He sits on it for a few months before handing it off to Chas, but leaves the 15A plug on it. I believe Chas thinks that the plug came with the amp (not positive about that) and begins testing using the installed plug.

Chas gets to 1650WPC into 2 ohms and something cooks. He sends it back for repair and waits however long to get it back.

When the repaired amp is shipped back, they again ship it to Sherv, who again sits on it (or is busy, or out of town, or whatever) for some time and then notifies Chas that he has it.

Chas gets the repaired amp and by now realizes that the 15A plug is a no-no for a 4500W amp, so he installs a 50A breaker and direct wires the cord. The amp sees no further testing as it craps out immediately (again, I have no idea what exactly is wrong with the amp).

Chas sends the amp back a second time. They repair the amp and ship it...yes, you guessed it...to Sherv again.

Chas says he doesn't want to mess with the amp and Sherv e-mails me to arrange to ship it to me, which I promptly do.

After this 5 months long saga, the amp arrives here. I open the box and see that one rack ear is bent, the front panel is kicked in and has abrasions in the aluminum front panel.

There is a 8 1/2" X 11" paper in with the amp that has a huge font printed note attached to a baggie that has the 15A plug in it (which Chas apparently left on the cord when he shipped it back for repair) that says: WARNING: THIS 15A PLUG IS NOT SUITABLE TO BE USED WITH THIS AMPLIFIER. A 50A TWIST LOCK PLUG IS REQUIRED FOR PROPER OPERATION!!

Balls.

I call them and let them know that the amp is damaged. I e-mail the proper person with all pertinent info and pictures of the damage. I never plugged the unit in, so I don't know if it ever was properly repaired.

They issue a call tag and I ship the amp back. After waiting a couple of weeks with no communication from the them, I send an e-mail with a letter attached, CC: to various agencies and basically let them know that I am now officially fuming out of every opening in my person, blah, blah.

3 days later, the new amp arrives in perfect condition.

I install a high quality 30A twist lock plug to mate with the twist lock 30A receptacle, install the amp in my rack, set all of the dip switches to their proper settings and now I'm set to let 'er rip.

As I've said, I've used 3 of the AA 4001 amps just before and during this ordeal, and all of them have worked without a hitch, so I don't anticipate any problems, but if there are, I'll report them here and book a flight to where it came from.

BTW, I'm using 30A juice/hardware because I bought the amp for its 3KW rating into 8 ohms, which is what my dual driver, each with 2 ohm DVC subs are wired to, so 30A should be more than enough for my needs.

Bosso
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post #95 of 661 Old 02-18-2009, 06:56 PM
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Bosso,
just a couple of corrections, not that it matters at this point:

the 15A plug, which I also thought would not be ideal, was suggested to me by the distributor when I called (when I got the amp originally). Eventually I was planning on putting the correct plug, but since my part of the testing was completed in 2 days, and Chasw was going to test it on the bench following my time, I left it on figuring we would eventually test it..... I assumed wrong I suppose.

The "sits on it" part is a bit misleading, to be fair: as most recall, the timing of when I got the amp and when chuck could test it was a little off, as he was in the middle of constructing his new mains and it would take a few weeks before he could clear his garage/setup to test it. I believe I mentioned this to all:
Here I received the amp on 8-14
Here I finished the testing and posted results on 8-16
Here I mentioned amp is packed and ready to go to chas, on 8-17
Chas I believe was able to clear some time about 3-4 weeks later (mid september), and thus commenced the delays between Chuck sending it back to them for repair, they taking a few weeks to fix and send back to me, and repeat.

I believe after the initial delay of allowing chuck to finish his previous work to start testing this amp, it never stood in my house for more than just a couple of days, and ditto on chuck's house. Most of the delays where done at the repair center end.


I want to publicly say that Bosso was very accomodating on this whole ordeal, and very patient. I think at the end it was a big miscommunication, but I'm glad to see You got a brand new amp, fully operational, after all this Bosso.

looking forward to the rest of this thread.
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post #96 of 661 Old 02-18-2009, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, no sweat here, Sherv. Like I said in the beginning of the post, it goes "something" like... I left some details out, but the general idea is there. It's just another power amp to me. In the end, it showed up just in time.

And, a beast it is! It ships with a label that warns that it's over 90 pounds, and it's built like a tank. I just decided to move to a single amp per sub vs the bridged-to-4 ohms times 2 amps per dual 15" sub I've used in the past. With 4 dual driver subs, that's 4 amps vs 8.

I have plenty of amps around here to make comparisons of headroom, noise, rack space, etc, so we'll see how it goes.

The Oak sub will be done Friday. I'll post pics and then move (er, I mean, have the boys move) the subs into position and set everything up.

Bosso
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post #97 of 661 Old 02-18-2009, 10:46 PM
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Yikes, that sure is a saga! So no idea what happened to it other than it died? Most amps have protection against undervoltage etc.

50 amp plug, what size of wire is coming out of the back of it, 8 ga? Kind of makes you wonder why they don't make more amps that operate on 240v.

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post #98 of 661 Old 02-19-2009, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

And, a beast it is! It ships with a label that warns that it's over 90 pounds, and it's built like a tank. I just decided to move to a single amp per sub vs the bridged-to-4 ohms times 2 amps per dual 15" sub I've used in the past. With 4 dual driver subs, that's 4 amps vs 8.

outstanding!

so I'm curious, how sealed is the rack where the amp(s) are located? I assume they are a)sound dampened to prevent the fan noise to come out, or b)located some distance away or in a different room, or both?

4 V5001 in one setup? 8 15" tumults in dual sealed mode alignment? where do I sign up?
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post #99 of 661 Old 02-19-2009, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

Yikes, that sure is a saga! So no idea what happened to it other than it died? Most amps have protection against undervoltage etc.

50 amp plug, what size of wire is coming out of the back of it, 8 ga? Kind of makes you wonder why they don't make more amps that operate on 240v.

No, no idea what actually was repaired the first two times. Maybe Chas can add some insight if he has any, but it's water under the bridge at this point.

Here's a side-by-side of the power cord/plug from a 1400W pro amp and the V5001 for comparison:



Bosso
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post #100 of 661 Old 02-19-2009, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

outstanding!

so I'm curious, how sealed is the rack where the amp(s) are located? I assume they are a)sound dampened to prevent the fan noise to come out, or b)located some distance away or in a different room, or both?

4 V5001 in one setup? 8 15" tumults in dual sealed mode alignment? where do I sign up?

When I had the V4001 in the rack I measured the fan noise against other amps in the rack and it went like this:

Loudest: Crown XLS series (ugh)
Next loudest: QSC RMX series
Next loudest: AA V4001
Quietest: Alesis Matica 500 and 900 (These are discontinued. I've had them for 15 years. They have wide BW, sound great and have truly variable speed fans so at idle they're very quiet. I wish all pro sound amps had variable speed fans because they really don't kick in unless you're playing some music very loudly.

The amps are in 2 racks that have glass fronts and sound traps, but I'm long overdue to build new ones since the hardware in them has evolved over the years. That's my next project as a matter of fact.

Truthfully, I'll probably end up with 2-2X15" subs and 2 V5001 (or some similarly capable amps) in the end because that's all I need in this room. For discrete redirected bass, I'm looking to the new 2X12 with a V4001 (2KW into 8 ohms bridged) with the MBM to handle all music duties.

I really like the V4001. I think it's close to rated output (probably around 1800W), it has good features (I love the volume controls on the back panel with a switch that disables the front panel controls. This saves a lot of potential problems when kids are in the mix) and I especially like the graduated signal LEDs vs signal/clip. It's built well for the money and has high dollar/watt value. The V series look pretty good in a rack too.

Bosso
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post #101 of 661 Old 02-19-2009, 10:22 AM
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Wow that was a saga wasn't it. I'm surprised that AA was so helpful and understanding. I can see where having the powercord modded might when it got back to them might have caused them to void the warranty. Looks like their customer service is alright.
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post #102 of 661 Old 02-19-2009, 04:19 PM
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Hmm, looks to be at least 10 gauge, but maybe a tad small for 8 gauge. In any way, a bit better offering than most for a connection. I assume that the cord is hardwired with a bushing on the rear of the chassis?

I am surprised something calfed in the amp, as most are designed to tolerate low voltage conditions.

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post #103 of 661 Old 02-20-2009, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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The Oak 2X12" sub is finished! I must say, it looks pretty good, especially on an oak floor. Here are some pics of the latest 3 subs and some close ups of the oak.

Again, I'm tired of referring to the wood-clad subs as 'The oak one' and 'The mahogany one', so let the names rip if you feel like it, and LMK which sub you like best of the 3, also if you feel like it.

Tomorrow, I'll get started on set up and calibration and see what they can do and post some graphs next week.

Group photo:

Group photo, different angle:

'The Oak One' by itself:


Bosso
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post #104 of 661 Old 02-20-2009, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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A close up of the base:

A close up of Driver-Vu/12" driver:

A close up of the black ostrich skin:


Bosso
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post #105 of 661 Old 02-20-2009, 04:29 PM
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Sweet lookin subs!

Trevor
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post #106 of 661 Old 02-20-2009, 05:13 PM
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post #107 of 661 Old 02-20-2009, 06:57 PM
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Sick subs Bosso, love the look very original! LOL Sherv my sediments exactly.
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post #108 of 661 Old 02-23-2009, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I've started the evaluation of the Oak 2X12" sub.

First, the enclosure is absolutely dead. Zero vibration on any part of it. I used the AA V5001 to power it, which gives 3KW (rated) into 8 ohms bridged. The amp is performing flawlessly so far and, due to the dedicated 30A home run, has more gas in the tank than the 2-QSC RMX 1450s, which are rated at 1400W each into 4 ohms bridged (rated), and are currently running a 2X15", one amp per driver.

I wanted to use this opportunity to pass on a tip to anyone who uses the Marchand Bassis. It's a great tool when using a driver with inductance-induced roll off at the top end.

Of course, one option is to lower the crossover point. I've done this with the Tumult MKI-based sub, and built a bridge sub (MBM is the current reference to such a thing, but mine is hardly a module) between mains and subwoofer. But, I've also used the L/T in the past to treat the Le hump as a high Q subwoofer.

The sub models to .7-.75 Q, but the Le roll off creates a hump that confuses the issue of anechoic system Q when close mic measured. This makes it nearly impossible to configure the L/T properly, causing you to fall back on the models prediction.

I measured the sub with a 4th order 120Hz LP filter in line (because I'm too lazy to connect to the mains out on the preamp, and then re-connect everything ).

Here's the anechoic response with the 120Hz 4th order LP:


Next is the anechoic response with the L/T configured as though the inductance hump is simply a very high Q subwoofer, which brings it to the target anechoic response:


Bosso
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post #109 of 661 Old 02-23-2009, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Next, I move the mic to the LP. You can see the room gain and add or subtract the L/T boost accordingly. I already knew what boost to use from hundreds of subs/placements in this room, which, in this case is 6dB:


Next, I leave the mic at the LP and kick on the rest of the subwoofer system and the mains to check for overall response:


After this, some phase adjustment tweaks should get me pretty darned flat without having to use any post EQ.

Bosso
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post #110 of 661 Old 02-23-2009, 05:03 PM
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Not bad, Bosso. I don't need to tell you how gorgeous your work is. The pictures speak for themselves.

Do these plots include the midbass module you made a few months back? I haven't heard anything about those in some time.

Also, I plan on getting a BASSIS as soon as I get my quad RLp18's installed. Should be soon. I'm sure I'll be asking for all sorts of help regarding that once I've started my build.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #111 of 661 Old 02-23-2009, 05:56 PM
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Names....


Oak=Tsumani
Black=Darth
Red=Tide

Music so high you can't get over it....music so low you can't get under it!
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post #112 of 661 Old 02-23-2009, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Not bad, Bosso. I don't need to tell you how gorgeous your work is. The pictures speak for themselves.

Do these plots include the midbass module you made a few months back? I haven't heard anything about those in some time.

Also, I plan on getting a BASSIS as soon as I get my quad RLp18's installed. Should be soon. I'm sure I'll be asking for all sorts of help regarding that once I've started my build.

Thanks Scott, I appreciate the compliment.

The last graph includes the 20X6.5 crossed over with a 2X15 sub at 60Hz.

I can't say enough good things about the Bassis. It makes integrating your subs with the room and different sources effortless and badda-bing fast.

The only other thing I feel is essential is separate phase control. The drawback in DIY multiple subs systems is that pro amps have no phase adjustment. Having only one control for a single SW output on the A/V pre or receiver just isn't enough, IMO.

That's why I designed a LFE/RB preamp years ago and had Phil build it. I've since redesigned it as the system evolved and it's always amazing to see how it brings the subs together to a flat response.

Anyway, I'll be glad to answer any Bassis questions. I've used them for years, so I'm very familiar with how they're designed to work as well as some apps it wasn't necessarily designed for.

Bosso
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post #113 of 661 Old 02-23-2009, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

Names....


Oak=Tsumani
Black=Darth
Red=Tide

I appreciate the entries. So far, we have:

Scoria (I admit I had to look that one up)
The Muse
The Hawk (and other raptors)
The Pendulum (in PM)
BB-1 (also in PM)
Tsunami
Darth (I love the earlier comment: "Lord Vader, your subwoofer is ready.")
Tide
Oriole (the bird theme is pretty cool. lots of choices here)
Sledge (one I came up with a couple of years ago, and still like)

Bosso
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post #114 of 661 Old 02-23-2009, 09:17 PM
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Oak = upheaval, Mahogany = executive.

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post #115 of 661 Old 02-23-2009, 10:04 PM
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"Black=Darth"

How about The Vaderi

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post #116 of 661 Old 02-23-2009, 11:57 PM
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Awesome subwoofers and very unique.

My suggestion for names:

The Kodiak
The Bolero

The Osmose: taken from osmosis. Kinda fits your venting idea a little bit anyway. I'm pronouncing it 'ozzmose', Okay, maybe not........hey, it's late.
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post #117 of 661 Old 02-24-2009, 01:20 AM
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How about calling it The Raven?

Available finishes:

Raven Oak

Raven Black

Raven Mahogany
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post #118 of 661 Old 02-24-2009, 09:11 AM
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Just ordered a Bassis yesterday now to get familiar with REW.
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post #119 of 661 Old 02-24-2009, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Man, you guys are awesome. I like all of these names.

I'll gather these names and run them past a panel of crazies on my end and list them in order of preference for final voting. Keep 'em coming...they're way good so far.

I put a summary of the 2x12" oak sub on a single graph for anyone who's interested.

First, I'll spill the beans on the driver. They're 12" Brahmas. They have a 1-1/4" pole vent, so I used a 1-1/4" aluminum heat conduction pipe. So far, no extraneous noises under extreme torture. I'll post some temperature measurements later in this thread which should be interesting.

Years back, in a conversation with Dan Wiggins regarding Brahma and L/T, in conclusion he said "Model to 75% of X-max, add 6dB of boost and call it a day."

Being the dense person I am, I of course didn't heed his advice and have experimented with all sorts of Vb and boost/Q/power schemes. This sub ends up modeled to 85% of X-max with 6dB of L/T boost when using the intended 1800W amp. Of course, using the 3KW amp, I have to be mindful of the potential problems when purposely torturing the sub (which I dislike doing, but I know Ricci wants to see PAIN.

I've pounded the oak 2x12" with The Hulk, WOTW, Transformers, AVP, Alan Parsons, Sting and Steely Dan. I've run the sub 6dB hot. I've also run the system dead flat with the 20x6.5 bridge sub and played the SACDs: Diana Krall's When I Look In Your Eyes (upright bass solos), JT's Hourglass, Spyro Gyra's In Modern Times, Satirani's Strange Beautiful Music, etc.

I've never been one to make exclamations like "OMG, my pants flapped, the earth changed rotation and it blends seemlessly [sic] !", but I'll just say this: If it gets any better than this, I wanna fly there today and hear it.

Graph:


Bosso
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post #120 of 661 Old 02-24-2009, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Man, you guys are awesome. I like all of these names.

I'll gather these names and run them past a panel of crazies on my end and list them in order of preference for final voting. Keep 'em coming...they're way good so far.

I put a summary of the 2x12" oak sub on a single graph for anyone who's interested.

First, I'll spill the beans on the driver. They're 12" Brahmas. They have a 1-1/4" pole vent, so I used a 1-1/4" aluminum heat conduction pipe. So far, no extraneous noises under extreme torture. I'll post some temperature measurements later in this thread which should be interesting.

Years back, in a conversation with Dan Wiggins regarding Brahma and L/T, in conclusion he said "Model to 75% of X-max, add 6dB of boost and call it a day."

Being the dense person I am, I of course didn't heed his advice and have experimented with all sorts of Vb and boost/Q/power schemes. This sub ends up modeled to 85% of X-max with 6dB of L/T boost when using the intended 1800W amp. Of course, using the 3KW amp, I have to be mindful of the potential problems when purposely torturing the sub (which I dislike doing, but I know Ricci wants to see PAIN.

I've pounded the oak 2x12" with The Hulk, WOTW, Transformers, AVP, Alan Parsons, Sting and Steely Dan. I've run the sub 6dB hot. I've also run the system dead flat with the 20x6.5 bridge sub and played the SACDs: Diana Krall's When I Look In Your Eyes (upright bass solos), JT's Hourglass, Spyro Gyra's In Modern Times, Satirani's Strange Beautiful Music, etc.

I've never been one to make exclamations like "OMG, my pants flapped, the earth changed rotation and it blends seemlessly [sic] !", but I'll just say this: If it gets any better than this, I wanna fly there today and hear it.

Graph:


Bosso


Are you planing on selling this thing? otherwise, I would just call it The Metropolis or M-212. You know... to spite the JL "Gotham"....anyone that reads comic books get that?

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