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post #271 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 09:33 PM
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At the risk of torquing someone, can someone comment on what they thought the least impressive sub was?

Lot's of low rent stuff stacked up into a medium rent pile.
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post #272 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digital desire View Post

At the risk of torquing someone, can someone comment on what they thought the least impressive sub was?

I don't think it's really fair to call one of them out as the least impressive. The GTG wasn't setup as a competition, the subs were placed all over the room and were not EQ'd flat before listening to them. I think it would have been interesting to do that sort of event at some time but it would have taken a LOT more preparation and probably wouldn't have been as much fun to attend. This was more like a subwoofer party.
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post #273 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 06:13 AM
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So my new subs should be 24" Cubes with the AV15H with 2500gram PR's at 16hz tuning

Set my mains to crossover at 200Hz and let 2 or 3 AV15H handle it all

John, you might be a busy guy

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post #274 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

I don't think it's really fair to call one of them out as the least impressive. The GTG wasn't setup as a competition, the subs were placed all over the room and were not EQ'd flat before listening to them. I think it would have been interesting to do that sort of event at some time but it would have taken a LOT more preparation and probably wouldn't have been as much fun to attend. This was more like a subwoofer party.

Thanks, I kinda knew that, and therefore prolly was a silly question.

Lot's of low rent stuff stacked up into a medium rent pile.
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post #275 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

So my new subs should be 24" Cubes with the AV15H with 2500gram PR's at 16hz tuning

Set my mains to crossover at 200Hz and let 2 or 3 AV15H handle it all

John, you might be a busy guy

Get in line!

Guys,

While it would have been cool to have this as a real competition, we would have needed a lot more preparation and probably would have needed to make it a two or three day event. A LOT of patience would have had to be endured, and that's something we all just didn't have.

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post #276 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digital desire View Post

At the risk of torquing someone, can someone comment on what they thought the least impressive sub was?

Hey, I'll jump on this one.....

IMO I don't think any one of the subs at the GTG this weekend caught a label of being "least impressive" here... they are all very respectable drivers in their own right. Of all the drivers there, I think the only ones the showed some less then desirable aspects to them would be my TC-Sounds 2000 and 3000. They just had a particular upper end roll off when compared to everything else in the room, but we all knew that going in, does that make them any less of a quality product, heck no - those things are very very clean and articulate subs, and if you had mains that would reach down to them that you could cross over at 50 or 60hz, they wouldn't be an issue, I just think they stood out a little more showing those attributes.

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Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

I don't think it's really fair to call one of them out as the least impressive. The GTG wasn't setup as a competition, the subs were placed all over the room and were not EQ'd flat before listening to them. I think it would have been interesting to do that sort of event at some time but it would have taken a LOT more preparation and probably wouldn't have been as much fun to attend. This was more like a subwoofer party.

+1, I think all in all, it was a gret learning experience for all that had the chance to get some time in with the different drivers.

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Originally Posted by digital desire View Post

Thanks, I kinda knew that, and therefore prolly was a silly question.

It was an honest question, but I didn't set this up to be a contest, just a chance for people to get familiar with the nature of subs in general. It was really great to have someone like John J there, who really really knows his audio theory, and being able to pick his brain as I know a number of people did was a great opportunity. Making connections like that is priceless. I again want to say thanks John, not alot of people would open themselves up like that to the public, that very admirable.

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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Get in line!

Guys,

While it would have been cool to have this as a real competition, we would have needed a lot more preparation and probably would have needed to make it a two or three day event. A LOT of patience would have had to be endured, and that's something we all just didn't have.

+1
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post #277 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey, how exciting..... My 3rd Mal-X comes in today... That will be nice getting that up and running.... Finally....
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post #278 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

I would like it if you could come over tomorrow night and help me move around a couple of subs, I think we should put the Passive in my small room and run some more listening tests on it.... He is looking to pick it up on Tuesday before he meets Mark Seaton in Milwaukee, another person I wouldn't mind meeting... how about I buy you guys lunch John...

Hi Warp',

That might be a possibility. We'll have to see how schedules work out as I know both John & I have been super busy.

BTW, we might have another opportunity for you and a few others to hear the system we tinkered with here in IL this weekend after some further adjustments.

For the record, I've been playing with various iterations of the AV 15 & 12 for quite a long time now through development. I've posted it many times before, and it's nice to hear some listeners agree, that while they are not the greatest Vd/$$$, they are attainably priced and offer some unique strengths and capabilities that can be very desirable.

I would add that the impressions posted should be considered with a little perspective. While the "fingerprint" and character of each sub would still be apparent, remember that all of you compared the natural response and efficiency of both the driver and enclosure. In other words, you compared implementations, not just drivers.

Without some measurement and EQ of the drivers with some added HF roll off, the results were highly predictable, especially given the comparison mostly on music. Believe me, having done many subwoofer comparisons, I know it is no trivial task! The comparison made only highlights which driver need some attention or have things to watch for on the top end. You would have to smooth the response to comparable levels and then listen again to make further judgments. Some drivers with HF roll off have lots of Le modulation, others have less variation, but still a significant Le, where the two are not the same, and will sound different.

Back to the usual banter...

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post #279 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 09:58 AM
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Hey Patrick, thanks again for hosting the GTG. It was nice of you and your family to do that for, as you put it, the greater good. It was a lot of fun, and it was great to talk audio with a great group of people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

I was really wondering why the LMS box had a tendency to walk and the XXX box didn't move an inch at full load, but it was really fun seeing what they could both do.

I think the LMS walking may have had something to do with the placement. Could the floor be less flat in the original spot? I didn't see it move at all after we moved it to let Brandon get his sub out, and I know it had at least one serious listening session after that.

In the end, what does it matter, just use two opposed to cancel the box vibrations.
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post #280 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 11:07 AM
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These types of things are a blast and I wish WI was a little closer. We get a couple every year out here but they are more audiophile meetings than subwoofer bashes.

Subwoofers are a bear to move so I have to admit, bringing small speakers or an amplifier to an event is a lot more fun than bringing 200lb subwoofers.

If you have another event Warp I'll send you some speakers. I have a new lineup coming out later this year. Not exactly subwoofer fodder but they are easier to ship. ;-)

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post #281 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

So my new subs should be 24" Cubes with the AV15H with 2500gram PR's at 16hz tuning

Set my mains to crossover at 200Hz and let 2 or 3 AV15H handle it all

John, you might be a busy guy

As a person who has two of these subs, I would say that you would be very happy When powered via the big Keiga plate amp they are about as much low end as anyone would want (this coming from a person who recently had a six 18" IB system.)

JP
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post #282 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

There's my brotha.... Whats up yo.... Hope you had a safe drive - Yeah the GTG was a bit of drama, but I think it was worth it.... For the Greater Good !!!! I always say... The Box really held up to the XXX quite well. I was really wondering why the LMS box had a tendency to walk and the XXX box didn't move an inch at full load, but it was really fun seeing what they could both do. I was truly amazed with what the LMS's were capable of.... I am sold on the upper bass performance of those drivers. I really need something that will put out really heavy solid powerful bass in that huge room of mine... the Mal-X's are really good, but the LMS just trumps them - obviously. I really appreciate you bringing the drivers up on that long hike so we could all gain in the knowledge of what the LMS's have to offer, and I'll tell ya I'll be in line for the new TC-Sounds LMS's...

It was great to meet ya buddy.... definitely have to GTG again sometime down the road...

Yeah...We got home in one piece. I did get pulled over leaving your house Saturday night. 78 in a 55. I don't know if that was the stretch you warned me about, but YOU DID WARN ME right before I left. I'm a dumbass sometimes. The cop let me off with a warning though. . However I got pulled over again on I90 on Sunday morning coming out of Chicago near the toll stations. 74 in a 45. I was not so lucky that time....

I had good time at your place and I'll give you a call next time I'm up that way. It was a journey, but totally worth it. Glad I could show up with some toys in tow. It ain't a party without a little drama, some injuries and a few hiccups.

How's that eye? I've got a full on purple nail on my right middle finger. Looks like it was painted.

(For those of you that weren't there. . . Patrick somehow managed to stab himself in the eye with a speaker wire while we were messing with one of the big 18's. WTH man??? I smashed the tip of my finger dropping in the LMS and another guy who was there named Peter caught a couple of his dropping in the XXX. He also dropped his end of the XXX sub when we were carrying it into the listening room putting a 3 foot long gouge into one of Patrick's doors with the corner of the cabinet. Thank god that thing didn't land on my foot! My buddy Chris should have some of this stuff on tape.)
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post #283 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Haskins View Post

These types of things are a blast and I wish WI was a little closer. We get a couple every year out here but they are more audiophile meetings than subwoofer bashes.

Subwoofers are a bear to move so I have to admit, bringing small speakers or an amplifier to an event is a lot more fun than bringing 200lb subwoofers.

If you have another event Warp I'll send you some speakers. I have a new lineup coming out later this year. Not exactly subwoofer fodder but they are easier to ship. ;-)


Edit for stupidity....

Kevin...... The Mal-X's were a great hit.... I just got my 3rd today, just loaded it into the truck...
Can't wait for it to finish up the listening room I have up there...
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post #284 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Yeah...We got home in one piece. I did get pulled over leaving your house Saturday night. 78 in a 55. I don't know if that was the stretch you warned me about, but YOU DID WARN ME right before I left. I'm a dumbass sometimes. The cop let me off with a warning though. . However I got pulled over again on I90 on Sunday morning coming out of Chicago near the toll stations. 74 in a 45. I was not so lucky that time....

I had good time at your place and I'll give you a call next time I'm up that way. It was a journey, but totally worth it. Glad I could show up with some toys in tow. It ain't a party without a little drama, some injuries and a few hiccups.

How's that eye? I've got a full on purple nail on my right middle finger. Looks like it was painted.

(For those of you that weren't there. . . Patrick somehow managed to stab himself in the eye with a speaker wire while we were messing with one of the big 18's. WTH man??? I smashed the tip of my finger dropping in the LMS and another guy who was there named Peter caught a couple of his dropping in the XXX. He also dropped his end of the XXX sub when we were carrying it into the listening room putting a 3 foot long gouge into one of Patrick's doors with the corner of the cabinet. Thank god that thing didn't land on my foot! My buddy Chris should have some of this stuff on tape.)


Good god man.... I thought I liked to drive fast... hence the "Warpdrv"

Yeah, all the collateral damage was brutal...

My right eye is still blurry, its slowly healing though... got it good...
That should make for some good Video... !!!
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post #285 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 12:21 PM
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As a person who has two of these subs, I would say that you would be very happy When powered via the big Keiga plate amp they are about as much low end as anyone would want (this coming from a person who recently had a six 18" IB system.)

JP

Very interesting!!!

I might replace my TC2000 sealed subs in my room and let them handle the 50Hz to 100Hz range. I will keep my ported TC2Ks though, they do 15Hz to 50Hz very, very well for me.

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post #286 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Good god man.... I thought I liked to drive fast... hence the "Warpdrv"

Yeah, all the collateral damage was brutal...

My right eye is still blurry, its slowly healing though... got it good...
That should make for some good Video... !!!

Sounds like you scratched it real good.

I do drive fast, but you know how it is on those long road trips. 80 starts to seem like 50 and all of that. The part in Chicago was one of those tricky parts where the speed limit is 45 in an area that looks like it should be 65. I wasn't paying attention and with 4.5hrs of drive left to go...You know how it is.
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post #287 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 01:14 PM
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A lot of the guys have already commented on things and I agree with most of what has been said so far. This wasn't a contest to determine a winner and it wasn't a testing and measurement session. I would've loved to do that kind of thing, but with the amount of equipment and people there, plus the limited time frame, it just wasn't possible, which I think everyone quickly figured out. I was supposed to get there around 10:30 or 11 and help get things set-up, but I didn't show up until after 1pm. We were already running late and due to a navigation error with the GPS on an Iphone, we ended up a few counties over at another Shady lane about an hour and 20 minutes from the house! Ooops. I believe that there were around 20 people there at one point and over 10 subwoofers.

Basically, we just dropped the subs in an available spot, roughly level matched all of the subs and let them go. We switched through them back and forth a lot playing the same tracks. No EQing, LTing, or fine tuning of them. We just didn't have time and the prospect of tweaking everything. We didn't even get a chance to mess with the SDX15 I brought. Moving all of those heavy bastards in and out of the way to use the same in room spot was daunting to say the least as well. We also had to switch the pre-amp twice during the day. Later on we basically just used the CE4000 bridged for all of the DIY's and switched the cable (speakon FTW). Maybe if there were less people, more time and way fewer subs like maybe 4 to 6. That said what we did do was: have a meet and great, a few beers, some food and a good time listening to some subwoofers. Nothing wrong with that at all. I think that even with the different room placements and general flurry of activity, there was enough there for everyone to get a feel for what each subwoofer had going on.

I also think that some of the guys who aren't that familiar with the DIY side of things got a good glimpse of the madness. We had raw drivers, enclosures and amps everywhere, John put together the AV15 and PR's sub in the workshop, I put together the LMS, Patrick was drilling out holes and wiring up speakons, we were mounting drivers, smashing fingers, cursing like sailors, etc, etc. I believe that Chris video'd most of the process of preparing and mounting the XXX. Good times.

My impressions on some of the subs is as follows...

F112.
I liked it. I really don't have much to add to the thousands of descriptions already out there. It was by far the tiniest and best looking sub and it sounded good from the limited time that I heard it. The build quality is excellent. It obviously was not the output champion, but it was impressive for it's size. I wish I could've heard it more.

Rhythmik's.
I didn't get to spend much time listening to these unfortunately as the sealed one was only there part of the day and I was late. I thought the sealed sounded better from what little bit I did hear, which seems to be the consensus. Could've been room placement or the set-up though. They both did appear to have a nice upper end of their range through the x-over region. The sealed Rhythmik was finished very nicely. Hopefully someone has a pic. It was second only to the JL on fit n finish.

ED190v2
I didn't listen to this one much either. What I did hear of it left me with the impression that it was a good budget driver, it rolled off the upper bass around x-over a bit, it would get loud with music, but will not shake the room with lows like the other 18's would. Gives up the ghost earlier. It's not on the level of a Mal-X and definitly not an LMS. But the entry price is much lower as well.

LMS
It's mine, so I know what it does and I'll let other people comment. I thought that it was right there with the best SQ of the bunch.

TC2K
Maybe it was the placement but this did seem to have a perceptible amount of softness in the x-over region compared to some of the others. It was clean though. Both Patrick and myself prefer the TC2K over the 3K. Not a bad driver.

TC3K
This driver had the most obvious difference in the punchy upper bass 70-100hz. It was noticeably softer than the AV15 PR set-up, or the MAL-X which was right below it. It also seemed to be pretty innefficient. It was still clean sounding but obviously darker toned and less snappy than the TC2K which was stacked on top of it. I would say that it had the most low grunt out of the 2 though and probably the most out of the 15" drivers.

AV15X PR'd
I thought this thing sounded great. From what I heard I'd put it right up there near the top of the heap SQ wise. It was punchy and clean sounding to me. John had a track with a clean un processed sounding bass guitar recording and it had a very fast run of low notes on it that really accentuated the note tracking ability of this sub. The TC3K and TC2K sounded less crisp and defined on that track. Of note here is the fact that John's sub was set-up on the wall by the entrance of the room , which had a hallway, a couple of doors and along with the XXX was the only sub to be set-up there. It also seemed to be pretty efficient and would jam when called upon. At one point we were in the garage talking and someone was cranking on it a bit and you could feel the concrete floor vibrating. Everyone thought it was the LMS. It did have the biggest enclosure of the group. I'd guess it at 26" all around. It was one of only 2 resonant alignments in attendance.

Mal-X
I thought it sounded good and aquited itself well. It seemed reasonably efficient and had a nice sound to it through the x-over area. Compared to the TC3K and TC2K stacked immediately on top of it, it sounded clearly superior to me. Much clearer than the ED190v2 as well I thought. I really wanted to spend a significant amount of time comparing it to the LMS and XXX, but we just ran out of time. Mainly it just seems to give up a bit of ruggedness and some useable output to those two. It is also significantly cheaper though. Patrick can probably expand here. We had a good conversation on these. I know that he knows what the Mal-X can do, as do i for my drivers and I trust his opinion and thoughts on it.

XXX
We didn't get this ready to go until late in the day and many people had already cleared out. It performed as I expected. Let me add that I was worried how it would sound in a box that small and those worries have been laid to rest for me. I'll be running mine in a 24" cube in the future. At the point that we got this running it was later in the day and the volume level had steadily crept up all day, as people wanted to see what things would do. It was subjected to a harder beating than any of the other drivers and it didn't dissappoint. We did clip the Crown REALLY hard into it with a 7hz note that Patrick's son had on some crazy bass track. I think that we got the full 108mm p2p plus some suspension stretch on that one. No damage. I had to actually say "hey why don't we switch over to some more SQ oriented tracks and lower the volume so we can listen to the x-over area" at one point. I think it surprised a few people when we did.
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post #288 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 01:20 PM
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I believe that Chris video'd most of the process of preparing and mounting the XXX. Good times.

That would be a great youTube addition

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post #289 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

AV15X PR'd It did have the biggest enclosure of the group. I'd guess it at 26" all around. It was one of only 2 resonant alignments in attendance.

Hi Ricci,

The box was actually a 24" cube. Total about 5cf internal. The feet added about 2" to the height.

John

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post #290 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Good god man.... I thought I liked to drive fast... hence the "Warpdrv"

Yeah, all the collateral damage was brutal...

My right eye is still blurry, its slowly healing though... got it good...
That should make for some good Video... !!!

i have poked myself in the eye with a wire once... no fun. I was lucky i did not scratch it.

Looks like you guys had a lot of fun up there (minus moving around mal-x
s xxx's and lms's.) Dropping those drivers in sealed boxes is a pain in the ass, if you do that gain, design a removable door the the back that allows you access to the bottom of the driver so you can grab and rotate to align mounting holes.

Its great to see some real world reviews of all these products. I think this thread clarifies the distinction between upper bass and lower bass and the trad offs involved in designing products for both. high inductance is less meaningful without high sensitivity too so its not exactly a gimme to design for low Le.

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post #291 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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i have poked myself in the eye with a wire once... no fun. I was lucky i did not scratch it.

Looks like you guys had a lot of fun up there (minus moving around mal-x
s xxx's and lms's.) Dropping those drivers in sealed boxes is a pain in the ass, if you do that gain, design a removable door the the back that allows you access to the bottom of the driver so you can grab and rotate to align mounting holes.

Its great to see some real world reviews of all these products. I think this thread clarifies the distinction between upper bass and lower bass and the trad offs involved in designing products for both. high inductance is less meaningful without high sensitivity too so its not exactly a gimme to design for low Le.

Hey Kyle.... Thanks for stoppin in.... I def. scratched it... should've had some eye protection on.... but that doesn't look cool now does it... It was a lot of fun here....

Speaking of low Le.... seems I have read somewhere that that indeed was one of the goals for the New LMS... Oh and BTW, just like you said, the LMS lined up exactly to the holes on the Mal-X basket.... although both Ricci and I thought maybe for this next run you could make the holes a bit larger, so we don't have to drill them out next time.... to accomodate my big honkin Stainless screws... Guess I like to overbuild..
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post #292 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

Hi Ricci,

The box was actually a 24" cube. Total about 5cf internal. The feet added about 2" to the height.

John

Hmmm. You sure you ain't trying to squeeze in an inch somewhere? JK. I guess it was the extra height that made it appear larger than the other 24" cubes. I sure thought it was.
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post #293 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 04:22 PM
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i scratched my eye once when i was about 9 years old in a kick ball game, i had to be a pirate for the next week... arrrrh

we us a 10-32 which is a bit smaller than 1/4 20's which is probably what you used to mount. Our gaskets are designed for 10-32 heads so we can't increase them without retooling - sorry. I agree, 1/4 20 is probably better for 80 pounds woofers.

Ya, new LMS's should have a bit lower Le, but a lot has been changed - i have been working/refining the 09 for a good 4-5 months

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post #294 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post


I would add that the impressions posted should be considered with a little perspective. While the "fingerprint" and character of each sub would still be apparent, remember that all of you compared the natural response and efficiency of both the driver and enclosure. In other words, you compared implementations, not just drivers.

this point is worth repeating, so...I would add that the impressions posted should be considered with a little perspective. While the "fingerprint" and character of each sub would still be apparent, remember that all of you compared the natural response and efficiency of both the driver and enclosure. In other words, you compared implementations, not just drivers.

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post #295 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by digital desire View Post

At the risk of torquing someone, can someone comment on what they thought the least impressive sub was?

You trouble-maker. That was a contentious question if I've ever seen one.


I've got the new Maelstrom-21 going into production soon too. It has about 25-30% more Sd than the M-18. In terms of total usable output, most of these really high-stroke designs are ultimately power limited. It is hard to get enough power in them to use the stroke they have. You can always get bigger amps but the cost/output equation starts to get ugly, power compression and such gets uglier, and eventually it doesn't make sense from an engineering standpoint.

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post #296 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

this point is worth repeating, so...I would add that the impressions posted should be considered with a little perspective. While the "fingerprint" and character of each sub would still be apparent, remember that all of you compared the natural response and efficiency of both the driver and enclosure. In other words, you compared implementations, not just drivers.

Yep. Everyone has said this from the beginning. Though with everything DIY being in either a 6ft (all of the 18's) or 3.5ft sealed box (all of the 15's) except for the AV15 and the ported Rhythmik, it is mostly the placement in room that is the main big variable and not the enclosures.
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post #297 of 414 Old 03-02-2009, 10:44 PM
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"high inductance is less meaningful without high sensitivity too so its not exactly a gimme to design for low Le."

Low inductance and high efficiency are both nice, but I don't see the connection between them.

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post #298 of 414 Old 03-03-2009, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"high inductance is less meaningful without high sensitivity too so its not exactly a gimme to design for low Le."

Low inductance and high efficiency are both nice, but I don't see the connection between them.

Patrick,
Allow me to indulge myself. I cannot help

Low inductance by itself has no meaning. It needs to be considered against the motor strength and the moving mass of the driver. Eventually it will be plotted as impedance curve and weighted against the motional impedance the same way that we scale impedance by (BL)^2/Re. For instance, assuming the BL value is same, a driver with half moving mass has a similar impedance curve as another driver with full moving mass, but half the inductance. A driver with low moving mass and high motor strength can tolerate a higher inductance. The low inductance "should" give us a more intimate sound as it should sound like the sub can follow every turn of the music signal. This is orthogonal to the sound quality of a sub with low distortion which is smooth and non-fatiguing.

In T/S equivalent electrical circuit or the impedance curve, the mass is represented as a capacitor. The inductance is opposite of capacitor. We should design more carefully when we see a capacitor connecting to an inductor. Physical, the inductor can "undo" the effect of capacitor as their phase is 180degrees opposite. In the same equivalent circuit, lower moving mass gives us lower capacitor (higher reactive impedance). The voice coil inductance makes the reactive impedance lower and the system will sound as if it has a higher moving mass.

Also the voice coil inductance is not a regular inductance. It is called semi-inductance due to the impact of eddy current in the pole piece with its inductance value decreases as square root of frequency (regular inductance has reactance proportional to frequency, semi-inductance has reactance proportional to square root of frequency). In addition, various inductance reduction techniques have different degree of effectiveness at different frequency band. Compare their values at 20khz, or even 1khz is not correct. The best way to do it is to find the actual impedance plot and try to curve fit the inductance value that will give us the same impedance minimal saddle point which is normally between 60hz to 150hz. That is the region more relevant to the sub's operation.
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Originally Posted by KyleLee View Post

i scratched my eye once when i was about 9 years old in a kick ball game, i had to be a pirate for the next week... arrrrh

we us a 10-32 which is a bit smaller than 1/4 20's which is probably what you used to mount. Our gaskets are designed for 10-32 heads so we can't increase them without retooling - sorry. I agree, 1/4 20 is probably better for 80 pounds woofers.

Ya, new LMS's should have a bit lower Le, but a lot has been changed - i have been working/refining the 09 for a good 4-5 months

Is there a price estimate for the 09?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

this point is worth repeating, so...I would add that the impressions posted should be considered with a little perspective. While the "fingerprint" and character of each sub would still be apparent, remember that all of you compared the natural response and efficiency of both the driver and enclosure. In other words, you compared implementations, not just drivers.

True, true.

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post #300 of 414 Old 03-03-2009, 08:54 AM
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A lot of the guys have already commented on things and I agree with most of what has been said so far. This wasn't a contest to determine a winner and it wasn't a testing and measurement session. I would've loved to do that kind of thing, but with the amount of equipment and people there, plus the limited time frame, it just wasn't possible, which I think everyone quickly figured out. I was supposed to get there around 10:30 or 11 and help get things set-up, but I didn't show up until after 1pm. We were already running late and due to a navigation error with the GPS on an Iphone, we ended up a few counties over at another Shady lane about an hour and 20 minutes from the house! Ooops. I believe that there were around 20 people there at one point and over 10 subwoofers.

Basically, we just dropped the subs in an available spot, roughly level matched all of the subs and let them go. We switched through them back and forth a lot playing the same tracks. No EQing, LTing, or fine tuning of them. We just didn't have time and the prospect of tweaking everything. We didn't even get a chance to mess with the SDX15 I brought. Moving all of those heavy bastards in and out of the way to use the same in room spot was daunting to say the least as well. We also had to switch the pre-amp twice during the day. Later on we basically just used the CE4000 bridged for all of the DIY's and switched the cable (speakon FTW). Maybe if there were less people, more time and way fewer subs like maybe 4 to 6. That said what we did do was: have a meet and great, a few beers, some food and a good time listening to some subwoofers. Nothing wrong with that at all. I think that even with the different room placements and general flurry of activity, there was enough there for everyone to get a feel for what each subwoofer had going on.

I also think that some of the guys who aren't that familiar with the DIY side of things got a good glimpse of the madness. We had raw drivers, enclosures and amps everywhere, John put together the AV15 and PR's sub in the workshop, I put together the LMS, Patrick was drilling out holes and wiring up speakons, we were mounting drivers, smashing fingers, cursing like sailors, etc, etc. I believe that Chris video'd most of the process of preparing and mounting the XXX. Good times.

My impressions on some of the subs is as follows...

F112.
I liked it. I really don't have much to add to the thousands of descriptions already out there. It was by far the tiniest and best looking sub and it sounded good from the limited time that I heard it. The build quality is excellent. It obviously was not the output champion, but it was impressive for it's size. I wish I could've heard it more.

Rhythmik's.
I didn't get to spend much time listening to these unfortunately as the sealed one was only there part of the day and I was late. I thought the sealed sounded better from what little bit I did hear, which seems to be the consensus. Could've been room placement or the set-up though. They both did appear to have a nice upper end of their range through the x-over region. The sealed Rhythmik was finished very nicely. Hopefully someone has a pic. It was second only to the JL on fit n finish.

ED190v2
I didn't listen to this one much either. What I did hear of it left me with the impression that it was a good budget driver, it rolled off the upper bass around x-over a bit, it would get loud with music, but will not shake the room with lows like the other 18's would. Gives up the ghost earlier. It's not on the level of a Mal-X and definitly not an LMS. But the entry price is much lower as well.

LMS
It's mine, so I know what it does and I'll let other people comment. I thought that it was right there with the best SQ of the bunch.

TC2K
Maybe it was the placement but this did seem to have a perceptible amount of softness in the x-over region compared to some of the others. It was clean though. Both Patrick and myself prefer the TC2K over the 3K. Not a bad driver.

TC3K
This driver had the most obvious difference in the punchy upper bass 70-100hz. It was noticeably softer than the AV15 PR set-up, or the MAL-X which was right below it. It also seemed to be pretty innefficient. It was still clean sounding but obviously darker toned and less snappy than the TC2K which was stacked on top of it. I would say that it had the most low grunt out of the 2 though and probably the most out of the 15" drivers.

AV15X PR'd
I thought this thing sounded great. From what I heard I'd put it right up there near the top of the heap SQ wise. It was punchy and clean sounding to me. John had a track with a clean un processed sounding bass guitar recording and it had a very fast run of low notes on it that really accentuated the note tracking ability of this sub. The TC3K and TC2K sounded less crisp and defined on that track. Of note here is the fact that John's sub was set-up on the wall by the entrance of the room , which had a hallway, a couple of doors and along with the XXX was the only sub to be set-up there. It also seemed to be pretty efficient and would jam when called upon. At one point we were in the garage talking and someone was cranking on it a bit and you could feel the concrete floor vibrating. Everyone thought it was the LMS. It did have the biggest enclosure of the group. I'd guess it at 26" all around. It was one of only 2 resonant alignments in attendance.

Mal-X
I thought it sounded good and aquited itself well. It seemed reasonably efficient and had a nice sound to it through the x-over area. Compared to the TC3K and TC2K stacked immediately on top of it, it sounded clearly superior to me. Much clearer than the ED190v2 as well I thought. I really wanted to spend a significant amount of time comparing it to the LMS and XXX, but we just ran out of time. Mainly it just seems to give up a bit of ruggedness and some useable output to those two. It is also significantly cheaper though. Patrick can probably expand here. We had a good conversation on these. I know that he knows what the Mal-X can do, as do i for my drivers and I trust his opinion and thoughts on it.

XXX
We didn't get this ready to go until late in the day and many people had already cleared out. It performed as I expected. Let me add that I was worried how it would sound in a box that small and those worries have been laid to rest for me. I'll be running mine in a 24" cube in the future. At the point that we got this running it was later in the day and the volume level had steadily crept up all day, as people wanted to see what things would do. It was subjected to a harder beating than any of the other drivers and it didn't dissappoint. We did clip the Crown REALLY hard into it with a 7hz note that Patrick's son had on some crazy bass track. I think that we got the full 108mm p2p plus some suspension stretch on that one. No damage. I had to actually say "hey why don't we switch over to some more SQ oriented tracks and lower the volume so we can listen to the x-over area" at one point. I think it surprised a few people when we did.

This is a fantastic summary! There weren't any "bad" subs at the GTG, per say; just some better performing/differently priced than others. Each price category offers exceptional performance IMO, and only you, the consumer, can determine if the performance increase warrants the price increase.

If I hadn't gone the DIY route, for my music system I'd probably own a sealed Rythmik (or possibly the new Epik Dragon...shame we couldn't get one here for testing). Depending on the cost of the dual passive design, that would certainly be another option. For HT, I'd have to go the DIY route and use LMS' or four F112's if I didn't have a budget limit, and the Maelstroms if I did. The price is steep for the LMS and JL's, but the performance is incredible. And yes, they are great with music too.

In the end, it all depends on what you're after and what you're willing to spend. Personally, since John J. is very busy and doesn't have any info about the dual passive design (price, how long it would take to build, etc), I will probably go with dual 15's and use them for both HT and music. When I get more funds, I'll move up to a bigger driver. The options are not limited, thank God.

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