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Old 02-27-2009, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Tomorrow I will be more interested in SQ than anything else. SPL is great, but most of these badboys should get up to 110dB or higher before they quit, no? If so, then the best SQ is the category I am most interested in. I own a TC2000 15" DIY subwoofer, and I love everything except the dropoff above 60hz. A 60Hz crossover to my mains helped a great deal, but I still have a midbass hump that I hope to EQ out with the BFD I just received. Tomorrow will be a great day, especially since it will help me decide whether the upper bass can be fixed with EQ or if I need to replaced the driver with something more smooth throughout the entire FR. Let's hope it's the former, as the TC has great impact.


The AV15X I'm bringing is pretty flat up to over 1KHz. that could cover your midbass requirements

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Old 02-27-2009, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

The AV15X I'm bringing is pretty flat up to over 1KHz. that could cover your midbass requirements

John

isn't midbass also a function of efficiency?

in a 4 cu ft ported to 25hz, power requirements from 80-120hz are pretty high on the av15x. Qes of 0.39 also seems pretty high for a driver that may claim good midbass.

i don't know. :-(

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Old 02-27-2009, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

isn't midbass also a function of efficiency?

in a 4 cu ft ported to 25hz, power requirements from 80-120hz are pretty high on the av15x. Qes of 0.39 also seems pretty high for a driver that may claim good midbass.

i don't know. :-(

How high a driver can play is primarily a function of inductance. The lower the inductance, the higher it can play. Where most drivers lack in the midbass region is due to extremely high inductance. The HE15 we used to sell made by TC had about 6mH inductance. This causes a bump followed by a rolloff above that. This is the response measured by Tom Nousaine from the original HE15 Pr enclosure.



Some drivers have even higher than this 6mH inductance. One sample I had back then was 12mh and the bump was at 45hz followed by a quick drop above that. The issue isn't only the rolloff, but the huge amounts of distortion over the range with the bump and the rolloff. The Q of the driver has little to do with the midbass ability. It is much more the determining factor around the tuning frequency of the driver.

The AV15's are quite efficient in comparison to some other drivers. They are abut 90.3dB 1W or 94.5dB 2.83V. With 1000W input you can expect 120db at 100hz. If that isn't enough, a vented box with the new TD18 will get up close to 130dB in that range.

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Old 02-27-2009, 05:33 PM
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i respectfully disagree. mid-bass punch is a function of mid-bass efficiency both from an spl perspective as well as an amplifier current perspective.

for an illustrative example, the jbl 2226h has a spec'd inductance of 1.75mH, which is much, much higher than the spec'd inductance of the av15 at 0.20mH.

the 2226h has subjectively *very* strong mid-bass punch AND is much flatter in frequency response than the av15.



also, in the mid-bass region, 70-140hz (+/-), the 2226h draws less than about 1/14th the power up to about 1/3rd the power for the same spl.
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:38 PM
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Looks like I might be able to come up a little earlier. The place where I was getting my hat channel from is closed on Saturdays. I wish I had a sub to bring. (I do have a 12" in a sealed box that used to be in my truck. We could blow it up!) I do hope to learn a lot by coming. I'm such a noob when it comes to HT and audio. Don't make too much fun of my audio ignorance!
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jailguy View Post

Looks like I might be able to come up a little earlier. The place where I was getting my hat channel from is closed on Saturdays. I wish I had a sub to bring. (I do have a 12" in a sealed box that used to be in my truck. We could blow it up!) I do hope to learn a lot by coming. I'm such a noob when it comes to HT and audio. Don't make too much fun of my audio ignorance!

the cool thing about this hobby is that we are all learning and we are all here to help each other. having lots of knowledge is not a requirement to participate!

you have an ambitious home theater plan. can't wait to see your build thread! one thing that you might consider is distributing your subs to the four corners of the room as this will max the spl and minimize the room modes before applying any eq.

there is a white paper on multi subs by harman international, but i'm too lazy right now to go find it.

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Old 02-27-2009, 05:48 PM
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ah, here it is: http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

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Old 02-27-2009, 07:07 PM
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Just arrived in Milwaukee...

No PB13! That's unfortunate. I really wanted to hear that one. Oh well.

I sure hope we can organize this and put some method to the madness. With 12 different subs to check out I sure hope that we can get a decent amount of time with each. I would assume that this session is about the SQ first of each and foremost and not any kind of SPL contest. Everyone should have control of the volume knob and dictate the use of what they brought to the party. That said, I hope no one minds if I do decide to crank on my own drivers here and there for fun. I also hope John will open up the vented dual TD18's a little.

Mal-Xs 6^3 Sealed
TC2000 3.5^3 Sealed
TC3000 sealed
F112 sealed
Rythmik 15 sealed
Rythmik 15 ported
XXX-18" 6^3 Sealed
LMS 18 6^3 Sealed
SDX 15 3.5^3 Sealed
A15H and pair of 18" PR's
TD18H+ Dual 18" vented subs
190v.2 sealed or a pair
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:33 PM
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Very interested in hearing the AE A15H and pair of 18" PR's , did not know he was bringing TD18H+ Dual 18" vented subs

What will the music menu be?

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Old 02-27-2009, 07:34 PM
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Pics!
You guys gonna line them up in a wall of power pict??
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:58 PM
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Warp....is your home insured for this woofage?

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Old 02-27-2009, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i respectfully disagree. mid-bass punch is a function of mid-bass efficiency both from an spl perspective as well as an amplifier current perspective.

for an illustrative example, the jbl 2226h has a spec'd inductance of 1.75mH, which is much, much higher than the spec'd inductance of the av15 at 0.20mH.

the 2226h has subjectively *very* strong mid-bass punch AND is much flatter in frequency response than the av15.

also, in the mid-bass region, 70-140hz (+/-), the 2226h draws less than about 1/14th the power up to about 1/3rd the power for the same spl.


I don't think there is much disagreement here. You're just looking at something different than I thought. Yes the JBL 2226 is going to be more efficient and require less power from say 80hz on up. This a similar application where people use our TD15M as an upgrade to the JBL2226, B&C's, TAD's, etc. It has similar Xmax and efficiency but about 1/8 the inductance of the JBL and much more linear inductance. Model the JBL once with 1/4 the inductance that it would see when moving fully forward in it's travel. Then overlay that curve over the curve with 1.75mH inductance. The difference between the curves shows the difference in response between inward and outward strokes. Flux modulation is also virtually eliminated in the TD15M. As a result it has much lower distortion and due to the highly thermally conductive copper sleeve also has better power compression.

http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/vie...php?f=3&t=1641

What I thought you were referring to though is in the case of a subwoofer needing to play from 100hz on down. From 100hz down to say 16Hz range, the AV15X is going to excel. It can play cleanly well past any kind of subwoofer Xover range and at the same time play to below 20hz.

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Old 02-27-2009, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Just arrived in Milwaukee...

No PB13! That's unfortunate. I really wanted to hear that one. Oh well.

I sure hope we can organize this and put some method to the madness. With 12 different subs to check out I sure hope that we can get a decent amount of time with each. I would assume that this session is about the SQ first of each and foremost and not any kind of SPL contest. Everyone should have control of the volume knob and dictate the use of what they brought to the party. That said, I hope no one minds if I do decide to crank on my own drivers here and there for fun. I also hope John will open up the vented dual TD18's a little.

Mal-Xs 6^3 Sealed
TC2000 3.5^3 Sealed
TC3000 sealed
F112 sealed
Rythmik 15 sealed
Rythmik 15 ported
XXX-18" 6^3 Sealed
LMS 18 6^3 Sealed
SDX 15 3.5^3 Sealed
A15H and pair of 18" PR's
TD18H+ Dual 18" vented subs
190v.2 sealed or a pair

I spoke with John today, and he will be coming tomorrow, but it looks like the TD18H+'s will not be joining the party, and I believe it will be an A15X w/dual 18PR.

John has been under an extreme amount of work load and was concerned about not being able to make it, but he will be coming with at least that sub, possibly a A15H.

Ricci, you will have full control of the remote with your own subs - no question in my mind, and I will be very dissapointed if I don't get to experience full SPL from the LMS & XXX... I have some serious time invested to not get that....

I'll be honest - my biggest interest here is the LMS.... I want to hear and feel that baby slam and check out the SQ coming from it... !!!!

I also am looking forward to how the Mal-X's do in a smaller room with a bigger amp and how it sounds next to the LMS.
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Old 02-27-2009, 09:34 PM
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Hope all goes well tomorrow guys! I will look forward to impressions and pictures. I will be installing new closet organizers and working in he theater if I get those done....
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Old 02-28-2009, 06:38 AM
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I thought you were going to be able to sqeeze the event in, dynfan? If not, we'll make sure to keep you posted.

See you all in a few hours. Everyone travel safe.

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Old 02-28-2009, 07:00 AM
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Come on guys, feed us some updates!
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Old 02-28-2009, 08:04 AM
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Come on guys, feed us some updates!

Update,

It does not start until noon, but if you must know, I am going to shower soon, shave, load up my gear, and head to Patricks to arrive and help setup.

I will be leaving by about 10am
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Old 02-28-2009, 08:13 AM
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LOL. I live in Denmark, so its 16:00 here now!
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Old 02-28-2009, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

I spoke with John today, and he will be coming tomorrow, but it looks like the TD18H+'s will not be joining the party, and I believe it will be an A15X w/dual 18PR.

John has been under an extreme amount of work load and was concerned about not being able to make it, but he will be coming with at least that sub, possibly a A15H.

Ricci, you will have full control of the remote with your own subs - no question in my mind, and I will be very dissapointed if I don't get to experience full SPL from the LMS & XXX... I have some serious time invested to not get that....

I'll be honest - my biggest interest here is the LMS.... I want to hear and feel that baby slam and check out the SQ coming from it... !!!!

I also am looking forward to how the Mal-X's do in a smaller room with a bigger amp and how it sounds next to the LMS.

No TD18's either? No!!!

The way I see it is that the best subwoofers we'll have on hand with low inductance, good upper frequency response and high linearity, will basically sound very very similar when operated comfortably within their limits. Things will separate more as the volume level goes up.

We are getting ready to have breakfast and head out. See you guys at Patrick's.
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Old 02-28-2009, 08:18 AM
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very impressive gathering I thought I could actually hear ...ahh just a thunder storm rolling through you guys rock..geez I coulda brought beer and bratz..
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Old 02-28-2009, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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You aint missin anything.... its gunna suck....
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Old 02-28-2009, 10:09 AM
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I'm building 2 x maelstrom x sealed myself atm, so pretty curious how it measures
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Old 02-28-2009, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Unfortunate news - Terry and his SVS Ultra13 will be unable to make it this weekend

Dashing my hopes to hear an Ultra13

I'm really sorry I couldn't make it. I was really looking forward to being there... Now it's the day of and I'm REALLY feeling bad.

Patrick: One way or the other I'll get you that chance to hear the PB13. It can either be at your place or by me when I get the Salk's.

Again, sorry to all the attendees that I couldn't make it.
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Old 02-28-2009, 11:50 AM
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i'm kind of surprised that nobody asked svs to send an ultra. they seem pretty cool and friendly to our community and would likely have sent one for demo. just a thought for future gtg's.

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Old 02-28-2009, 12:04 PM
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I will be very interesting in hearing about the AE product that is brought by. I have some of John's TD12H's in my mains and they are very nice drivers.

Also, is this only for subs or is anyone bringing some speakers to?
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Old 02-28-2009, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

Flux modulation is also virtually eliminated in the TD15M. As a result it has much lower distortion and due to the highly thermally conductive copper sleeve also has better power compression.

i would *really* like to agree with you. drivers that minimize flux modulation such as those manufactured by bms have very low distortion numbers. i want to believe your power compression claims as well.

HOWEVER, with no measurements, how are we to know? jbl has measurements for the 2226h for frequency response, distortion, and power compression. where are the measurements for the ae drivers???






source:
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n18.pdf
LL
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Old 02-28-2009, 03:09 PM
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Hope you guys had fun. Can't wait to see some pics. I was unable to come. I didn't get home until 4. By the time I would have gotten there it would have been 5:30. I figured that'd be too late. Hopefully next time.
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Old 02-28-2009, 05:57 PM
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Looks like I will be the first one to post about the Subwoofer GTG, of which I attended.

I left earlier than most, but I left thoroughly impressed with some of the stuff I heard.

First off, as most probably would have guessed, the LMS 18 6^3 sealed was an amazing subwoofer. The sheer output and impact this thing put out at obscene levels was pretty astounding. I did not stick around long enough to hear the XXX-18" 6^3 sealed sub in comparison (they needed to share the same enclosure, so the LMS was tried first, with the XXX being swapped in later), but the XXX would have been right up there, I'm sure. I was told by a few of the VERY educated and experienced attendees that the XXX and LMS are both incredible drivers for the money, and worth the price of admission. Only having heard one, I'd certainly agree and have no reservations recommending the LMS. And even though I didn't get any listening time with the XXX, based on the experience of others much more experienced than I, I can safely recommend the XXX as well. These drivers are monsters!

Although the above mentioned blew me away, nothing blew my mind like the A15H and pair of 18" PR's in it's unique enclosure (hopefully pictures will be posted later). Sure, the 18" drivers moved more air (and they should, as they are larger), but this 15" with dual passive radiators was probably the best subwoofer I've ever heard. Personally, I am not in search of ridiculous SPL, but this thing got loud, hit hard and did it will speed and great musicality. It was tight, reached deep and easily filled the room. I remember helping merrymaid load his Rythmik subwoofer into his car, then walking back into warpdrv's garage to take the garage door entrance down into the basement (where all the subwoofers were). Well, I heard the A15H and pair of 18" PR's in the garage, loud and clear. I had assumed someone really cranked up the LMS. As I got into the basement and into warpdrv's "woodshop," which is a larger offset room next to the listening room, I could REALLY feel this custom subwoofer built by John Janowitz of Acoustic Elegance. Again, I thought one of the larger 18" subs was playing. When I walked into the listening room and learned that the smaller 15" driver (with the aid of the two passive radiators) was outputting what it did, I immediately knew my 15" TC2000 DIY subwoofer at home would never sound the same. My eyes have been opened, and my subwoofer listening at home has been ruined. That could be a good or bad thing. Good because now I want one of those custom basboys, but bad because it's going to hurt my wallet and I am going to have to convince my wife that we need to replaced the subwoofer I just paid off. If I don't post again on these forums for a few weeks, I'm dead because my wife killed me.

Patrick, thanks so much for allowing us to invade your home. You're an awesome host! I also want to thank Patrick's darling girlfriend, Angie. She pretty much catered the entire event with some very scrumptious eats. God bless her soul - she put up with us AND cooked for us. NICE!

I would have loved to have stuck around longer and get more listening time with the other subwoofers, plus see measurements of each, but I had to get home to the family. I had a great time and met some really awesome people. It was a pleasure to meet you all!

P.S. Anyone with a XXX or LMS is sitting pretty.

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Old 02-28-2009, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

The AV15X I'm bringing is pretty flat up to over 1KHz. that could cover your midbass requirements

John

After hearing what I heard at the GTG, I am VERY interested (as I told you in person ). You have a PM.

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Old 02-28-2009, 06:54 PM
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"When I walked into the listening room and learned that the smaller 15" driver (with the aid of the two passive radiators) was outputting what it did, I immediately knew my 15" TC2000 DIY subwoofer at home would never sound the same."

Careful, it could be that you need to bring his listening room home with you to get the same sound.

Noah
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