SE WI Sub shootout.... - Page 8 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #211 of 414 Old 02-28-2009, 05:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mynym's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 15
How did it compare with the Maelstrom-x's?

Does John have the plans for that Enclosure + weight he used on the passives?
mynym is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #212 of 414 Old 02-28-2009, 06:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
enricoclaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,196
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 171
How about the Rythmik’s 15 (sealed and ported)?
Pics please !!!!!!!!!

Best Regards,

Enrico Castagnetti
Rythmik Audio

 

My Multimedia Room Gallery

enricoclaudio is offline  
post #213 of 414 Old 02-28-2009, 06:46 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,740
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Liked: 1124
Quote:
Originally Posted by castaño View Post

How about the Rythmik's 15 (sealed and ported)?
Pics please !!!!!!!!!

lol...hypocrisy knows no bounds.


Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #214 of 414 Old 02-28-2009, 07:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thirdeye11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Dallas
Posts: 1,815
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Looks like I will be the first one to post about the Subwoofer GTG, of which I attended.

I left earlier than most, but I left thoroughly impressed with some of the stuff I heard.

First off, as most probably would have guessed, the LMS 18 6^3 sealed was an amazing subwoofer. The sheer output and impact this thing put out at obscene levels was pretty astounding. I did not stick around long enough to hear the XXX-18" 6^3 sealed sub in comparison (they needed to share the same enclosure, so the LMS was tried first, with the XXX being swapped in later), but the XXX would have been right up there, I'm sure. I was told by a few of the VERY educated and experienced attendees that the XXX and LMS are both incredible drivers for the money, and worth the price of admission. Only having heard one, I'd certainly agree and have no reservations recommending the LMS. And even though I didn't get any listening time with the XXX, based on the experience of others much more experienced than I, I can safely recommend the XXX as well. These drivers are monsters!

Although the above mentioned blew me away, nothing blew my mind like the A15H and pair of 18" PR's in it's unique enclosure (hopefully pictures will be posted later). Sure, the 18" drivers moved more air (and they should, as they are larger), but this 15" with dual passive radiators was probably the best subwoofer I've ever heard. Personally, I am not in search of ridiculous SPL, but this thing got loud, hit hard and did it will speed and great musicality. It was tight, reached deep and easily filled the room. I remember helping merrymaid load his Rythmik subwoofer into his car, then walking back into warpdrv's garage to take the garage door entrance down into the basement (where all the subwoofers were). Well, I heard the A15H and pair of 18" PR's in the garage, loud and clear. I had assumed someone really cranked up the LMS. As I got into the basement and into warpdrv's "woodshop," which is a larger offset room next to the listening room, I could REALLY feel this custom subwoofer built by John Janowitz of Acoustic Elegance. Again, I thought one of the larger 18" subs was playing. When I walked into the listening room and learned that the smaller 15" driver (with the aid of the two passive radiators) was outputting what it did, I immediately knew my 15" TC2000 DIY subwoofer at home would never sound the same. My eyes have been opened, and my subwoofer listening at home has been ruined. That could be a good or bad thing. Good because now I want one of those custom basboys, but bad because it's going to hurt my wallet and I am going to have to convince my wife that we need to replaced the subwoofer I just paid off. If I don't post again on these forums for a few weeks, I'm dead because my wife killed me.

Patrick, thanks so much for allowing us to invade your home. You're an awesome host! I also want to thank Patrick's darling girlfriend, Angie. She pretty much catered the entire event with some very scrumptious eats. God bless her soul - she put up with us AND cooked for us. NICE!

I would have loved to have stuck around longer and get more listening time with the other subwoofers, plus see measurements of each, but I had to get home to the family. I had a great time and met some really awesome people. It was a pleasure to meet you all!

So for you what made the A15H the best subwoofer of the day? What was the loudest? The LMS? Curious of more of your impressions!! If I add another subwoofer or replace my Epik Tower I'd love to know your impressions and influence so I can make a more educated decision. I'd really like to attend a subwoofer GTG one day, but you guys were 1,000+ miles from me.
thirdeye11 is offline  
post #215 of 414 Old 02-28-2009, 07:57 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post


Careful, it could be that you need to bring his listening room home with you to get the same sound.

Of course that could be said. It could be said about any speaker or subwoofer auditioned in any room but your own. This thread is suppose to include listener opinions, and that's what I gave. I heard the same TC2000 enclosure as I have in comparison at the GTG, and my statement stands. Remember, these are just opinions, so take it for what it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mynym View Post

How did it compare with the Maelstrom-x's?

Does John have the plans for that Enclosure + weight he used on the passives?

You'd have to ask John about the latter question.

The Mal's are awesome for the price, no doubt, but the LMS took it to a new level with what sounded like a punchier midbass, cleaner top end and lower depth. The LMS could also be pushed harder without duress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

lol...hypocrisy knows no bounds.



Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdeye11 View Post

So for you what made the A15H the best subwoofer of the day? What was the loudest? The LMS? Curious of more of your impressions!! If I add another subwoofer or replace my Epik Tower I'd love to know your impressions and influence so I can make a more educated decision. I'd really like to attend a subwoofer GTG one day, but you guys were 1,000+ miles from me.

We would have loved to have you there, but 1000+ miles is a pretty valid excuse.

Take this with a grain of salt as the subwoofers were sitting in different positions in the room while we were all listening at different positions in the room, but the A15H sounded the cleanest out of all the subs, especially the other 15 inchers. For sheet output the LMS is the way to go IMO, but for a 15" driver I was very impressed with the A15h. It, unlike the other 15's, had smooth low end grunt and seemed balanced all the way to the crossover. It just gave me a more "believable" representation of the music. When cranked up it didn't blink an eye, which really impressed me.

I am sure others, especially the max SPL fans, will have different preferences, but I am simply giving mine. For a very affordable setup, the A15H was a winner in my book. It outperformed the TC Sounds drivers without question to my ears. I also factor price vs. performance into all of my impressions, so maybe that will give you a better understanding of why I liked what I liked. I am sure the others will chime in when they get a chance.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #216 of 414 Old 02-28-2009, 08:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
digital desire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Syracuse
Posts: 1,082
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Someone brought a camera...........right?

Lot's of low rent stuff stacked up into a medium rent pile.
digital desire is offline  
post #217 of 414 Old 02-28-2009, 08:10 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 58
^ Yes sir. Some of the guys had a long return trip home, so hopefully pics are up by tomorrow.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #218 of 414 Old 02-28-2009, 09:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,509
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

^ Yes sir. Some of the guys had a long return trip home, so hopefully pics are up by tomorrow.

Awesome report, Nuance. Thanks for the quick heads up.

JJ's the man when it comes to the PR alignment, IMHO. Do you happen to know what the tune was of the 15X? What demo material did you like the best with the sub?

Bosso
bossobass is offline  
post #219 of 414 Old 02-28-2009, 09:44 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,740
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 500 Post(s)
Liked: 1124
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Awesome report, Nuance. Thanks for the quick heads up.

JJ's the man when it comes to the PR alignment, IMHO. Do you happen to know what the tune was of the 15X? What demo material did you like the best with the sub?

Bosso

lol, has janowitz published a single peer reviewed paper? i'm not pooping on his products, as they look pretty sweet to me, but come on, how can you say he is the man with respect to pr alignment with no measurements, and no theory.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #220 of 414 Old 02-28-2009, 09:53 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Here we go...more pointless arguing. Yay! Take it elsewhere, please.

The tracks were unknown to me, but we got familiar with them REAL fast. I take that back, some of them I knew. Jack Johnson was one of the artists. Merrymaid can fill you in on the rest of the details as I believe most of the music was his. Oh, and I do not know what John had his sub tuned to. I've been focusing on speakers for the past few years and have finally started getting serious about bass recently, so it was a pleasure to hear everything today.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #221 of 414 Old 02-28-2009, 10:02 PM
Advanced Member
 
John_E_Janowitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Green Bay, WI USA
Posts: 849
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i would *really* like to agree with you. drivers that minimize flux modulation such as those manufactured by bms have very low distortion numbers. i want to believe your power compression claims as well.

HOWEVER, with no measurements, how are we to know? jbl has measurements for the 2226h for frequency response, distortion, and power compression. where are the measurements for the ae drivers???
source:
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n18.pdf

I'm aware of the JBL paper as I have seen it referenced many times. What I find interesting is that I've seen papers from EV and others that show their own drivers to be better in terms of power compression and distortion than the JBL2226H. It is quite easy as a manufacturer to come up with a scenario to make your drivers measure superior. That scenario may mean nothing for someone else's application of the same drivers. We've been asked before for measurements to compare to other manufacturer data and without knowing the exact measurement methods and conditions it's pretty much impossible to do.

In terms of power compression you need to take into account the enclosure or lack of enclosure used for the test. If it is open baffle, the drivers with softer suspension have an advantage as the coil moves farther at low frequencies with the same input power and in doing so cools better. Stiffer suspension keeps excursion down more at lower frequencies and there is less airflow for cooling. In an enclosure the system Q also affects excursion. The JBL 50-500hz signal will tell a different story than a 20-200hz signal or a 100-1000hz signal as well as excursions are different. You need to know the crest factor, the slope of the filters to cut the frequency range, etc. As you go up in frequency, drivers that rely on air flow for cooling like the 2226H will have less advantage than at the lower frequencies.

Distortion on the other hand changes a lot in large drivers based on the enclosure, baffle size and mic position as well. Up close you get some additional issues caused by reflections off of the surround that would not be there at 2m distances. Distortion measurements between manufacturers like JBL and EV even are not directly comparable. One measures distortion on a large 10x10ft baffle with a large sealed enclosure behind it at 2m with a particular AES standard input signal. The other measures with a totally different method. While they both provide data that "looks good" and gives you some nice THD percentages, you can't say which one looks better as they aren't comparable. THD also doesnt' mean a whole lot different orders of distortion are more or less audible. In reality the only optimal way to compare 2 drivers is in the alignment you intend them to be used in. Our OEM customers who have done this have validated for their own needs many times the superiority of the Lambda motor in both distortion and power compression.

The vented cooling in the JBL does help compared to a standard design. It needs airflow to work though meaning high excursions. Showing measurements factoring in higher excursion levels at 50hz doesn't show much if you plan to crossover to a subwoofer at 100hz as you now have only 1/4 the travel on the driver and your air cooling factor is greatly decreased. Air however is not a good medium for cooling anyway. It requires large surface area to be effective. The area in the 2226h is quite minimal. Compare air cooling to other methods of cooling. Only small gasoline engines can be air cooled and larger engines need liquid cooling. Amplifiers, CPU's, etc need heat sinks first to pull the heat away quickly, and then a fan to aid in the cooling of the larger heatsink. A VC is similar.

The first thing you need to do is get the heat away from the coil. To do this it needs to be transferred to the top plate or the pole. These steel pieces have tremendous thermal mass in comparison to the VC and have huge surface area to dissipate the heat as well. The larger the air gap, the harder it is to transfer heat to the steel. The other main key is in the surface area for heat sinking, not just the diameter of the coil. Drivers with thicker top plates have more outer heat sinking area close to the coil and can pull heat from the coil better on the OD. Drivers with a kapton former or similar are insulating the coil on the ID which drastically reduces heat transfer to the pole. Drivers with an aluminum former pull heat from the coil on the ID and get it close to the pole. As the alum former has even larger surface area than the coil windings alone, it is quite effective at transferring heat to the pole. What we do to greatly increase this heat transfer is sleeve the whole pole with copper. This is a thick copper sleeve, not just a thin layer of plating. While the steel pole can absorb huge amounts of heat, it doesn't do it very quickly. The copper is much more thermally conductive. It can absorb heat much quicker from the air gap and then as it is rigidly affixed to the steel pole there is direct transfer of heat to the steel. The same concept is used on the bottom of frying pans with copper to help them heat faster.

If you look at the drivers with more surface area (in this case larger diameter coils) they all perform better in terms of power compression. The TAD with alnico slug has to have a former that insulates the coil from the alnico, as alnico begins to demagnetize more with heat. As a result it suffers in terms of power handling. It is not typically a driver that is ever used with very high power though so I'm not sure why it is in the comparison. Alnico is also less prone to flux modulation as it has higher flux density. This means lower distortion and reading JBLs claims shows this about the TAD "Generally, the performance is good, with distortion components in the mid-band uniformly 35 dB below the fundamental, similar to the JBL 2225H." At lower than their 115dB test levels, the TAD will have lower distortion than the JBL2226H(their best) even due to lower flux modulation, but of course the JBL paper won't tell you that.

That all said, we have a massive 19mm thick top plate around the OD of the coil. This combined with very tight tolerances and the addition of the full copper sleeve on the pole makes them very efficient at transferring heat away from the pole. We then go a step farther and have a huge solid billet aluminum phase plug on the front of the pole. This further pulls heat out from the pole. Now we have a huge heatsink and the large cone is blowing air back and forth over this phase plug to help cool it. In addition to that, by being round, you have the convection cooling of air going around the phase plug to remove heat as well.

John

John E. Janowitz
Acoustic Elegance, LLC
"Learn from the mistakes of others... you can't possibly live long enough to make them all yourself"
John_E_Janowitz is offline  
post #222 of 414 Old 02-28-2009, 10:35 PM
Advanced Member
 
John_E_Janowitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Green Bay, WI USA
Posts: 849
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Patrick, first I did want to thank you again for putting this all together today. I also want to apologize for hijacking this thread here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

lol, has janowitz published a single peer reviewed paper? i'm not pooping on his products, as they look pretty sweet to me, but come on, how can you say he is the man with respect to pr alignment with no measurements, and no theory.

I'm not so much for publishing papers myself. I don't even have enough time to get drivers built and designed at this point. In regards to PR's, I've been doing PR subs since back in 2001 when Nick at Lambda Acoustics turned me on to them. Our PR FAQ answers some basic questions about PR's, how they work and what makes one PR better than another.

http://www.aespeakers.com/PRFAQ.php

Regarding measurements/theory, as mentioned in the other post, I could spit out all kinds of measurements. I could give THD percentages under some unknown test conditions that don't mean anything or give power compression figures in some alignment you'd never even use a woofer in, but what is the point? Each person we work with who has tested the drivers in their own given applications ends up using our drivers for a reason. Here are a few people who have done some research before choosing our drivers and a few builds by people who are quite happy with their drivers.

www.evolutionacoustics.com MMThree 15" woofers

www.audiokinesis.com TD12M's for Planetarium system

www.salksound.com TD12H for new open baffle system and upgraded 10" drivers to replace former TC woofers and a few other things on the way

www.seatonsound.net Terraform drivers and 12" drivers for the catalyst that you can see in the following thread here if you aren't familiar with them http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1094517

www.exigy.co.uk high end recording studios

www.chicagorecording.com subwoofer for Studio 4

Rightbrains Tremor Twins with AV15X that you may have already seen.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1106988

Recording monitors for Nick Barnett's TraxxSquad Productions
http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/vie...php?f=14&t=701

BaSSlines by dlneubec, inspired by the new Salk speaker. I believe he also has a thread on here, but look at Jeff Bagby's comments on the TD12H on the second page of the thread.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=29988

Several who have been built high efficiency DIY main speakers in this thread here
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1035126

MTM's using the TD10M's by Owen Columbus from Paradigm
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...hreadid=132884

I hope to have further verification of our drivers soon from others who have received them such as Lynn Olson, Earl Geddes, Jon VerHalen and Nelson Pass.

Most all of the people above have verified in their own applications that the drivers supplied to them were superior to the other options that were available. I also have a few friends in the industry who have done some off the clock measurements on the drivers for me to verify my results. I can't post their names and results publicly as it may cost them their jobs.

John

John E. Janowitz
Acoustic Elegance, LLC
"Learn from the mistakes of others... you can't possibly live long enough to make them all yourself"
John_E_Janowitz is offline  
post #223 of 414 Old 02-28-2009, 11:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lennon_68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: All alone in northern MN...
Posts: 1,953
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Well we made it back to Minneapolis in one piece. It's pretty late but I just wanted to pop in and say again that it was great meeting everyone and we had a great time! Thanks again to Warp for inviting us into his home.

I have to drive another 3 hours north in the morning then probably spend some time with my family before I'll get a chance to do anything with the pictures but hopefully I'll get them up by tomorrow night. There was also a videographer at the GTG so we should see some videos on YouTube in the near future as well.

As far as my impression of the subs I felt the LMS was the strongest all around. The XXX was great as well, nothing could match it on Bass I Love You but it just didn't have the goods on the high end like the LMS. I was also pretty impressed with the Rythmik subs. I was very excited to get to hear one of these for myself and see if the SQ is all that I've heard it is. For me it was. The PR sub Nuance mentioned was also very powerful and clean. Honestly I don't think anyone would be disappointed with any of the the above!



Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

lol, has janowitz published a single peer reviewed paper? i'm not pooping on his products, as they look pretty sweet to me, but come on, how can you say he is the man with respect to pr alignment with no measurements, and no theory.

Could you maybe take this discussion to PM or at least start a new thread for it? It's clear you have some issues with John but I don't think this thread is the right place for you to express them.
lennon_68 is offline  
post #224 of 414 Old 02-28-2009, 11:50 PM
Advanced Member
 
John_E_Janowitz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Green Bay, WI USA
Posts: 849
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

Could you maybe take this discussion to PM or at least start a new thread for it? It's clear you have some issues with John but I don't think this thread is the right place for you to express them.

Glad to see you made it back safely. And yes, I agree. Should he wish to start a new thread I'll be glad to edit out my responses and move them to another thread.

John

John E. Janowitz
Acoustic Elegance, LLC
"Learn from the mistakes of others... you can't possibly live long enough to make them all yourself"
John_E_Janowitz is offline  
post #225 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 12:56 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 296 Post(s)
Liked: 167
"I heard the same TC2000 enclosure as I have in comparison at the GTG"

Missed that, I retract my admonition.

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #226 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Warpdrv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 7,350
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

lol, has janowitz published a single peer reviewed paper? i'm not pooping on his products, as they look pretty sweet to me, but come on, how can you say he is the man with respect to pr alignment with no measurements, and no theory.


LTD02

Take it elsewhere, I won't have you Cr@pping on MY thread.

I worked very hard for people to come together and have the ability to see some new and different products they would normally not have the chance to do so and John Janowitz was more then gracious to make an appearance as well as bring a fantastic product for us all to listen to....
Warpdrv is offline  
post #227 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 07:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
merrymaid520's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Milwaukee WI
Posts: 1,446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Patrick,

I want to thank you and Angie for having us all over again, it was a blast! Sorry i had to leave early and that I missed hearing the XXX.

I enjoyed listening to all the subs. Johns A15 PR sub was very impressive. It seemed to be a great all around package sub excelling in all the frequencies. Of course the larger LMS probably had more output. As for the smaller offerings from the TC2K & TC3K, the Rythmiks, and the JL, they all had their high/low points. I personally enjoyed the JL for its incredible sound from such a small enclosure although the sealed Rythmik was very very close in SQ almost too close to pick a winner IMO.(we did not focus on max SPL).
As for all of the smaller sealed 15" subs we listened to although the auditions were very short for me as I had to leave early, I liked the JL & sealed Rythmik best. To me they provided the cleanest most natural bass from down low to around 80-100hz. The TC subs were close but did not quite have the refinement or reach as low as the other two(maybe an EQ would have solved this).

I only heard the prototype Rythmik ported sub for a very limited time frame. I could tell it would offer more overall SPL numbers but again it was not as punchy/articulate in the chest pounding type bass as the sealed version. It was very clean sounding as we gave it some juice, but if SQ is your top priority and not volume, the sealed was better. Thanks Brian for sending us the ported version for all to hear, its a great ported sub!

Now to set my Rythmik sub back up & run REW once more to recalibrate everything

Brandon
merrymaid520 is offline  
post #228 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Warpdrv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 7,350
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Ahhhh The Morning after....

First off, I want to say thank you to everyone that could make it and bring something new to the party to listen to. I think it was a great success, albeit a bit disheveled in nature, it turned out very well. My house suffered some structural damage. A picture in the bathroom vibrated off the wall and tore the TP holder off. I believe that can be blamed on the LMS !!!!! Which I believe was under my control at the time.... I'm still wiping the drool off my face with the impressions that driver had left me with.

Ricci, it was finally great to put a face to the name and awesome of you and your buddy to make the long trek up bringing the LMS and the XXX, as well as the SDX-15, which we never got running either. Your a stand up guy, and I appreciated your presence at the meet. For those that didn't get the chance to hear the XXX, I'll give ya my take, it comes very close in SQ to the LMS but exceeds it in output down low. The throw of that thing is just downright wicked !!! And after running some more tracks after everyone was gone, I don't think that driver gets enough press. The upper bass is pretty darn good, not great or better then the LMS but certainly an all around great driver many would be blown away to own. We didn't get that driver up and running right way, I build the box for it, but our day seemed to head right into giving a run through of all the subs that were up and running. After we dropped that driver in the box, I was amazed with what that monster had... WOW Ricci also stayed around after everyone was gone and we took close mic measurements on all the drivers with REW as well as room responses. I'm sure he'll be posting the measurements of all the drivers when he has time.

Thanks go out to John Janowitz for coming, he brought his Passive Sub that he assembled here. The driver itself was much heavier than I had anticipated and very well built, and that was the first time I had the chance to see how those flat passive drivers were constructed, very cool. The sub is still here and as soon as I move it out of my basement I will give it a run again. I will tell you, I was more then extremely impressed with his sub, that thing really puts out and sounds fantastic. Deffinately a great addition, and it was great to be able to talk with John.

Thanks also must go out the Brian from Rythmik for sending his new prototype sub, build quality was great on it as well... I personally preferred the sealed Rythmik that Brandon brough along with the Parasound (thanks buddy) but I think they sounded very close - either are great choices IMO.

All in all, I think everyone had a great time, with lots of beer and food sliding down made for some all around great fun... For those that hadn't gotten a chance to see what goes into DIY it was likely quite an eye opener with, raw drivers, assembly and empty boxes a plenty to get a glimpse at.
Warpdrv is offline  
post #229 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 07:33 AM
J
Member
 
J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Mukwonago Wi
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Thanks again Patrick for your wonderful hospitality!




And thanks to all the people I talked to. ( I'd never met anyone at the GTG before yesterday)

My main interest in attending the event was to hear the AE sub and it did not disappoint...(I can see a couple in my future)

I was blown away by the JL sub , mostly due to size . Not that it was lacking in sound quality! More of, I can't believe what that little thing can do. Just not the WOW factor that Patrick's 18 " sub had ..

Thanks again !

John

Samsung 55 inch lcd
Marantz sr5400
Parasound HCA 1500
Parasound HCA 1000
JTR OS LFU
Paradigm studio 40's -fronts
Paradigm CC
Paradigm atoms -rear
J is online now  
post #230 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Warpdrv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 7,350
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by J View Post

Thanks again Patrick for your wonderful hospitality!




And thanks to all the people I talked to. ( I'd never met anyone at the GTG before yesterday)

My main interest in attending the event was to hear the AE sub and it did not disappoint...(I can see a couple in my future)

I was blown away by the JL sub , mostly due to size . Not that it was lacking in sound quality! More of, I can't believe what that little thing can do. Just not the WOW factor that Patrick's 18 " sub had ..

Thanks again !

John


Nice to meet you John, and glad you could make it, that 18" was the LMS and Ricci brought that, but we dropped it into one of my Mal-X boxes. The mounting holes lined right up, although we had to drill the holes on the basket a touch bigger , that was all caught on video.. Both Ricci and I agree that the mounting holes for those drivers should be bigger to support larger diameter threads, so he had no problem with me opening them up a tiny bit to accomodate the bigger stainless threaded screw I used. I was so happy to see that the LMS fits perfectly in my box if I ever wanted to upgrade.
Warpdrv is offline  
post #231 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 08:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
exojam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: MA
Posts: 2,553
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Warp,

Was all the demo material specifically for the subs being looked at or were there any times when one pair of mains were used to see how the different subs integrated with the mains?

James
exojam is offline  
post #232 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 08:49 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Great stuff and thanks for the impressions from you WAC jobs!

Any pictures for those of us that were not there?

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #233 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 08:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
merrymaid520's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Milwaukee WI
Posts: 1,446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Pics:


merrymaid520 is offline  
post #234 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Warpdrv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 7,350
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

Warp,

Was all the demo material specifically for the subs being looked at or were there any times when one pair of mains were used to see how the different subs integrated with the mains?

James

The music was selected by the group, we ran through alot of different material that would show off the different capabilities of the subs. Most of the time we had it crossed over to the mains at 100hz so we could get a grasp for not only the low end but also the upper bass response and characteristics of all the different drivers. I think it goes without saying that the TC drivers (2000 & 3000) that I have at my house, were easily singled out for having the least performance in the upperbass region.

The front end consisted of the Parasound 2100 preamp, my D-Sonic 2000-5 IcePower amp powering my Paradigm Signatures with the bass running a little hot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Great stuff and thanks for the impressions from you WAC jobs!

Any pictures for those of us that were not there?

Thanks Curtis, it was fun and a great deal of work with getting all these products up and running at one point or another, but I felt the group had good cohesion and all worked hard together to come to a common goal of hearing everything we had available to work with...

I didn't take any pictures, but there was Video that will be up on youtube from Ricci's buddy and his HD camera, and other pictures were being taken by group members that I hope to be put up in the thread...
Warpdrv is offline  
post #235 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Warpdrv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 7,350
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Nice.... More pics please Brandon !!!!!!


Oh also to note that at the couch and seating position, the measurements that were taken at the end of the evening showed how bad the positioning of the triple stack of subs was in that room.... which is too bad... As they were all my stuff...
Warpdrv is offline  
post #236 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 09:15 AM
Senior Member
 
pjpoes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 309
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
John and I have talked about bandpass designs, and he mentioned his feelings to the potential advantages of what I perceived to be a 6th order bandpass using passive radiators. I'm curious if he brought any of these? It appears from the discussion and pictures the answer is no. Too bad, I would have been interested to see some impressions from others. I bet people would be surprised.
pjpoes is offline  
post #237 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 09:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
digital desire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Syracuse
Posts: 1,082
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Nice, thanks for the pics. (moar!)

So was the mal-x an "also ran" sort of showing?
Can you describe the signal chain? Was there any eq for all the sealed designs?

Sure wish I could have heard all those!

Lot's of low rent stuff stacked up into a medium rent pile.
digital desire is offline  
post #238 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 10:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
exojam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: MA
Posts: 2,553
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Warp,

Thanks for the information. It sounds like a great time was had by those who attended. I would like to attend one of these types of gtg but most folks places are not wheelchair accessible.

I will be interested in seeing what the going price on one of John subs with the PR goes for. I would believe it would go great with my mains.

James
exojam is offline  
post #239 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 10:27 AM
Member
 
racineboxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 153
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjpoes View Post

John and I have talked about bandpass designs, and he mentioned his feelings to the potential advantages of what I perceived to be a 6th order bandpass using passive radiators. I'm curious if he brought any of these? It appears from the discussion and pictures the answer is no. Too bad, I would have been interested to see some impressions from others. I bet people would be surprised.


I'm not exactly sure if the sub he brought meets the description of "6th order bandpass using passive radiators" but John certainly had one of his custom 15" drivers in a nice sized cube (awesome matte black paint job too) with two passive 18"s in it. And it was a very good performer, perhaps top 1-2.


edit: It's probably not fair to say "top 1-2" because then everyone is going to ask "which sub won" and the way this GTG went, it wasn't really designed to determine a winner (or losers). I think it was more of a learning experience (about the different subs, types, amps, etc...) and not a competition. At least that's how it felt to me.
racineboxer is offline  
post #240 of 414 Old 03-01-2009, 10:33 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post


I will be interested in seeing what the going price on one of John subs with the PR goes for. I would believe it would go great with my mains.

James

+1. I hope to get an estimate from John as I am very interested.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off