Building subwoofer using 18LW1400 driver in vented box - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 50 Old 01-22-2009, 04:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Everyone,

I am in the planning process of building my sub using the above driver. I want tuning between 25 and 28hz. I will be using an SVS PB-13 Ultra to take over the lower end of the spectrum. I am after maximum output above the 28hz range. I will be using 18mm marine grade plywood to build the enclosure. For the ports is PVC pipe fine? or should I use premade flared ports? Is the below graph a concern regarding enough port surface area for the desired tune? What would be the optimal design goal here. Thanks in advance.

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post #2 of 50 Old 01-26-2009, 01:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Finished the basic construction. Need to putty up all the holes and sand. Then I want to apply a piano gloss black finish. Total internal volume is about 250L not huge. Tuned to about 30 Hz. Is it bad to apply EQ below the tuning frequency of the port? Say I provide boost at around 26 Hz. I plan to run it through a subsonic filter of about 22-24hz 24db/octave to prevent driver damage if the signal asks for 1000w at 20hz. So far so happy. Anyone here have any experience with applying piano gloss black finishes?
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post #3 of 50 Old 01-26-2009, 02:06 AM
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nice looking box...but the length of that port has me concerned...how did you arrive at such a short port with no bends in it?

Tim
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post #4 of 50 Old 01-26-2009, 02:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tundrSQ View Post

nice looking box...but the length of that port has me concerned...how did you arrive at such a short port with no bends in it?

Thanks, I used the length that WinISD gave me, which was 525mm to achieve a 30Hz tuning via a slot port of 530x100mm given the volume of the box minus the total volume of the port give or take. Should it be longer?

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post #5 of 50 Old 02-03-2009, 03:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is my sub box with undercoat and second coating of gloss black enamel paint. Will be coating with high gloss lacquer then sanding and using a cutting compound to try and get as close as mirror finish as possible. Should have the thing up and running in about 2 weeks. Will post my comparisons between the SVS PB-13 Ultra and this one which cost me a lot less than the SVS.
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post #6 of 50 Old 02-03-2009, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DL86 View Post

Finished the basic construction. Need to putty up all the holes and sand. Then I want to apply a piano gloss black finish. Total internal volume is about 250L not huge. Tuned to about 30 Hz. Is it bad to apply EQ below the tuning frequency of the port? Say I provide boost at around 26 Hz. I plan to run it through a subsonic filter of about 22-24hz 24db/octave to prevent driver damage if the signal asks for 1000w at 20hz. So far so happy. Anyone here have any experience with applying piano gloss black finishes?

It is a bad idea to add boost below the tuning frequency because the driver becomes unloaded and you run the risk of bottoming the driver even with small amounts of power. In fact, most people will run a high pass filter for ported subs.
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post #7 of 50 Old 02-04-2009, 02:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I will be running a active high pass filter which I am also building my self. -3db point at 22Hz and a 36db/octave roll off. Reason for the high pass filter is to avoid the dangerously high excursion I will be getting around 20hz when the signal asks for 1000 watts of power according to the graphs. I am guessing I wouldn't need much boost anyway down low considering I have a lot of room gain in the 28-34Hz.

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post #8 of 50 Old 02-04-2009, 12:39 PM
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Any pics of the driver?

I recently did something similar with an Eminence Kappalite and a Bash300 and I really liked the results. I used a Behringer crossover at around 50Hz to split up the bandwidth between the Kappalite and my HSU STF3.
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post #9 of 50 Old 02-04-2009, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Ordering the driver today from the US. Will takes pics once it arrives. Box still ain't ready anyhow... need to wait 2 weeks for the lacquer to harden before I can sand it.

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post #10 of 50 Old 02-24-2009, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Change of plan. Using the 18 Sound 21" woofer 21lw1400 driver instead. Found a cracking deal on one. Here are some pics. I will need to cut a bigger hole in the box, luckily I can just fit it. Will post more pics once I get it up and running.
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post #11 of 50 Old 02-24-2009, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DL86 View Post

Change of plan. Using the 18 Sound 21" woofer 21lw1400 driver instead. Found a cracking deal on one. Here are some pics. I will need to cut a bigger hole in the box, luckily I can just fit it. Will post more pics once I get it up and running.

I bet you got it from Neil Smith. Nice driver.
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post #12 of 50 Old 02-25-2009, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I bet you got it from Neil Smith. Nice driver.

Yep. Finished the whole the thing. Blown away right now, the bass is very intense now. The 21 integrates extremely well with my svs pb-13 ultra, not sure why people were raving on about it being hard to integrate two completely different subs. Attached is a frequency response graph. Only prob is the ultra can't keep up with the 21 to save its life so I had to turn that down increase the gain on the 21. The FR has smoothed out quite a bit with me running the two subs, still not perfect but I can fix that with some EQ. Another problem my dvd player skips when I play my music too loud, will need to relocate. The 21lw1400 I read somewhere would have trouble playing down to 20hz, infact its relatively flat to 20hz then starts rolling off after that.

This is my first attempt at DIY and I am extremely pleased with the results I acheived.
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post #13 of 50 Old 02-25-2009, 02:55 PM
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Great Job for a first attempt! Hell, great job on a 20th attempt.
Enjoy.

Lot's of low rent stuff stacked up into a medium rent pile.
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post #14 of 50 Old 02-25-2009, 02:56 PM
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The sub and FR looks great.
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post #15 of 50 Old 02-25-2009, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DL86 View Post

Yep. Finished the whole the thing. Blown away right now, the bass is very intense now. The 21 integrates extremely well with my svs pb-13 ultra, not sure why people were raving on about it being hard to integrate two completely different subs. Attached is a frequency response graph. Only prob is the ultra can't keep up with the 21 to save its life so I had to turn that down increase the gain on the 21. The FR has smoothed out quite a bit with me running the two subs, still not perfect but I can fix that with some EQ. Another problem my dvd player skips when I play my music too loud, will need to relocate. The 21lw1400 I read somewhere would have trouble playing down to 20hz, infact its relatively flat to 20hz then starts rolling off after that.

This is my first attempt at DIY and I am extremely pleased with the results I acheived.

Excellent. The FR at the low end will be increased by room gain.

What did you finish it with?
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post #16 of 50 Old 02-25-2009, 11:50 PM
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Glad you went this route. So how does the 21LW1400 compare with the PB13U in terms of SQ above 30Hz? (if you would kindly do a comparison).

However I gather from your original post that you would operate both at different passbands, the pro driver for above 30 and SVS below 30?
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post #17 of 50 Old 02-26-2009, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the good feedback. I finished it with dulux super gloss enamel black and wattyl estapol polyurethane and then applied cutting compound following by polishing wax. 2100, I don't know if i'm qualified enough to judge sound quality, however I am running both subs atm at all frequencies for now and it seems to work quite well given the FR i acheived.

Both sound very good to my ear at normal listening levels, raise the volume and difference in sound quality favors the 21lw1400 largely, the pb-13 would break up and make all sorts of noises, this is only in bass intense music though. Yes the pb-13 ultra plays lower, but not as loud. In movies the pb-13 ultra can keep its own. Note: my ears were hurting after yesterday's listening sessions... I was acheiving over 120 db beats in music, might try turning down the volume next time lol.

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post #18 of 50 Old 02-26-2009, 01:47 PM
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How did you measure that? What distance from sub, placement of sub, was it in room, etc?

I wish more people understood the benefits of a more efficient design. That sub will achieve volume levels which will cause immediate and permanent hearing damage with power that other drivers would need just to reach things like thx reference levels. WHich means it's not even breaking a sweat when asked to produce only reference levels.
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post #19 of 50 Old 02-26-2009, 04:24 PM
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That looks great! I got to tell you the truth...at one point I was itching to buy those 21s as well.

What tuning frequency did you go with? I am curious what a close mic sweep of the 21 would look like.
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post #20 of 50 Old 02-27-2009, 12:41 AM
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DL86, the PB13U distortion plots/SPL levels are clearly documented in HTS and AVTalk sites. When you do hear audible distortion in the bass, it should be pretty high in % already. I guess the 21LW1400 should be pretty low distortion. I think I recommended you the 18LW1400 based on value, instead of the 2242H.

I would love to see what Audiopulse may come out.
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post #21 of 50 Old 02-27-2009, 11:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, you did recommend the 18lw1400. I'm glad you recommended it, saved me the money of buying the jbl lol. I did buy a 18lw1400 which got damaged in shipment and I am awaiting insurance on that, but at the same time found a 21lw1400 locally for very cheap so bought that in a snap. Also the magnet on the 21lw1400 is almost doubled in thickness over the 18lw1400.

pjpoes, I measured this at my usual listening position using REW and using the correction values for the radio shack SPL meter. Tuning of the sub is 30 Hz. Did a bit of experimentation by stuffing a pillow in half of the port and applying a 20hz sine wave and managed to get an extra 3-4 db with the pillow in place instead of a completely open port. Also with the pillow I can get over 100 db at 18hz probably more, but wasn't game enough to try it any louder. But I do loose output up higher with the pillow. I will leave the pb-13 ultra to take care of the lower regions.

Another thing I noticed the cone excursion is next to nothing for chest slamming SPL's, without the pb-13 ultra. I am only powering it with a single channel from a rotel rb-1090 amp which provides about 400w per channel for the mean time, god knows what it can do with a behringer ep4000.

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post #22 of 50 Old 02-28-2009, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DL86 View Post

Another thing I noticed the cone excursion is next to nothing for chest slamming SPL's, without the pb-13 ultra. I am only powering it with a single channel from a rotel rb-1090 amp which provides about 400w per channel for the mean time, god knows what it can do with a behringer ep4000.

What you really ought to try is some acoustic rock, trance or R&B, sit just 15 cm in front of the 18sound sub, and turn up the volume when you are not in a critical listening mode. It will just punch you silly.

Quote:
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I'm glad you recommended it, saved me the money of buying the jbl lol.

The 2242 is a very good driver, moreover looking at it as a whole you can easily sell the 2242 for a good resale price and have good demand for it, nobody will mistake it for 3pcs of Peavey Lo-riders which will be of even better initial value.
I was interested in using good pro components for "hifi purpose", initially as an "audiophile" I was still pretty skeptical about pro stuff as they can whack and go loud but are more like lo-fi - ya know the typical kinda thinking? I was listening to one of the local DIYers sys and we were playing with Lowthers, Azura horns/JBL lenses, vintage JBL LE-85, Altec and stuff like that (audiophilia). The dual 2242s kinda caught my attention. I know stuff like Emerald Physics CS2, WLM loudspeakers and some higer-end hifi dabble in such a way too but at an exotic price. The EP CS2 got the best sound of the show, better than quite a lot of silly priced audiophilia stuff (all at high SPL). WTF? Its just Eminence 15 Alphas OB and Sel D220 Titanium with cheap opamps DCX2496, every single audiophile rule is broken. That goes to show how a good and very optimised engineered drivers + implementation can perform in a certain situation. After hearing the 2242s I never looked back.

PS. You are EQing the 18sound right?

But I was "bitten" too, the Beyma AMT-150 did not meet my expectations - though it is one of the best in the mids/uppermids, lower treble (it sounds better than horn loaded and still maintains that dynamic/punch presentation of horn loading). EQ / tweaking does not fix anything.
Check out the price too.
http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%20tpl150-1.htm
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post #23 of 50 Old 03-03-2009, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm thinking of scraping this whole audiophile thing altogether and going pro audio all the way with my system. Thinking of building the 2-way 18 sound 12 inch woofer and compression driver/horn cabinet listed on the 18 sound website for a center speaker.

No I didnt use any EQ what so ever with the 18 sound. I was planning on getting a DSP1124P but the response turned out quite nice.

Here is a whole heap of measurements I did with my setup, if anyone is interested. Essentially every possible tuning of the svs and 21lw1400 in combination with one another and each sub on its own. I also included a test with the 21lw1400 with a pillow blocking roughly a bit more than half of the port which provides extra extension down into the subsonic regions. This was all done at my prime listening position with the radioshack meter and correction values applied from home theater shack forums and damn that SVS pb-13U can really dig low down to 6 hz

 

FR response tests 21lw1400 and SVS pb-13 ultra.zip 446.869140625k . file

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post #24 of 50 Old 03-03-2009, 06:17 AM
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impressive non-EQed measurements!

SVS pb-13U can really dig low down to 6 hz

You have incredible room gain actually!

I'm thinking of scraping this whole audiophile thing altogether and going pro audio all the way with my system.

Pro audio is the "dark horse" in the game

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post #25 of 50 Old 03-03-2009, 07:47 AM
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DL86, you would have to understand as you dig farther down into infrasonics, even with very accurate compensation values for your mic in REW, the computer/notebook input electronics would probably be inaccurate. But seriously I don't think anyone needs much accuracy over there that low down, as long as you know you are getting output.... LOL!

You have to be careful with the pro stuff. I have a pair of Beyma 10MW/Nd vented, whenever I exceed 100dB/1m for 1 cab and 105dB/1m for the other (approx) I'd get some funny rattling distortion kinda sound suddenly, its as if the magnets inside are loose and rattling with some midrange kinda noise. I'm not sure what is happening, but I will try to put some superglue on the individual neodymium magnets and see (i can't close the vents between the magnets as they serve as cooling holes). Can't be both drivers are faulty at the same time, I believe its a design flaw. As you can see its not a 100% hit all the time even with EXPENSIVE drivers.

I'm not letting that bother me, since I am enjoying the Lambda 15s so much that the Beymas don't get any play time at all. But one fine day when I am free I shall fix it, so that at least the $$$ is not wasted (can't sell DIY for nuts over here in SG). Trying to earn as much money as possible while the chance/opportunity is still available!

The Beyma CP380/M is a very good driver, you can try that.
Or use the Neo version the 385Nd, but seriously i believe they are around the same. Do it active with EQ, no issue with the funky impedance peaks and whatever different horn compensation needed for whatever horn flare you choose. You should try the Lambda TD drivers from aespeakers, they are very very good and most importantly don't cost much. Do a search, they are used all over the place in many designs over here and DIYA.
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post #26 of 50 Old 03-05-2009, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DL86 View Post

I'm thinking of scraping this whole audiophile thing altogether and going pro audio all the way with my system. Thinking of building the 2-way 18 sound 12 inch woofer and compression driver/horn cabinet listed on the 18 sound website for a center speaker.

I have been using pro drivers for several years and I doubt I will ever go back to typical audiophile drivers. However, some are a lot better than others for this application and there isn't as much info out there so research and choose carefully.

As an AE driver owner like 2100, I would highly recommend them.
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post #27 of 50 Old 05-26-2009, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DL86 View Post

I'm thinking of scraping this whole audiophile thing altogether and going pro audio all the way with my system. Thinking of building the 2-way 18 sound 12 inch woofer and compression driver/horn cabinet listed on the 18 sound website for a center speaker.

first, awesome build!

second, awesome build!

third, have a look at the 12nmb420. it has a lot going for it (ruler flat frequency response, low (and most likely ruler flat) inductance, high efficiency, good magnetic damping, i can't find distortion plots (but given the design, my guess is that distortion is very low), curvilinear cone, sufficient power handling capability)...i really can't find anything wrong with it. flawless?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #28 of 50 Old 05-31-2009, 07:07 AM
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that sub is CRAZY !

chasing rattles ......

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post #29 of 50 Old 08-18-2009, 07:33 PM
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DL86,

Do you have any updates?

How are you liking your sub?
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post #30 of 50 Old 08-18-2009, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

I ended up getting a proper amp for it (behringer ep4000) and a DSP1124P for EQ and couldn't be more pleased. I do get that punch in my sound now with music that the ultra was lacking, hard to explain. I did a measurement and found the sub can play flat up to about 200Hz this could be the reason for the perceived punch. Funnily, even though its tuned to about 30Hz I still get plenty of infrasonic bass to about 17-18hz or so in my room. Plays anything I throw at it.

When I move to a bigger house I will be looking at building suitable LCR speakers with dual 15 inch pro woofers and horns to provide a better match with the level of bass this sub can produce.

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