2 more 12s or an 18 for 95% music set up - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 56 Old 03-02-2009, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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i was just wondering if you guys could help me out on this one. i currently have 2 12" kicker comps (yea nothing flash but they do sound good) im looking for a little more bass and more low end. in your opinion should i get 2 more 12" kickers or a mach5 MJ18? either way i'll be gettin a new amp and the prices work out similar so if you guys could just give me ur opinion on this please it would be a great help.

Current:
2x 12" kicker comps
350w rms plate amp
4.24cuft @28hz

Intended:
4x 12" kicker comps
600w rms plate amp
8-10cuft @26-28hz

or

the original kickers and
1x 18" mach5 MJ18
with its own 600w rms plate amp
and its own enclosure: 6-10cuft @24-27hz

This wont be right away it will be towards the end of the year but i would like some suggestions, opinions and comments.

Sam
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post #2 of 56 Old 03-02-2009, 03:58 PM
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is this what you are working with?

http://www.kicker.com/sites/default/files/2005Comp.pdf

the voice coils seem a little small to me. 1.625" diam. they also seem to fudge the xmax parameter by creating what they call exmax. this is a bad sign. i call horse$hit.

kicker isn't too popular around here. i guess these would be some reasons why.

you could get a shiva 12" and then save up a couple more bucks and then add another one. quality component for sure. also, take a look at the ep2500 amp in place of the plate amp. for instantaneous power reserves, you need big capacitance, or a sophisticated power supply. the ONLY plate amp that i have ever seen with any real capacitance is the one on the jl home subs.

just some thoughts for you.

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post #3 of 56 Old 03-02-2009, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes they are the subs im working with. remembering this is mainly music im lucky if i watch 1 movie a month so im not to worried bout the sub 20hz region. i also live in australia so i duno how i would go getting a shiva x or any other high quality driver you guys use. just about the only brand i no i can get is mach5audio thats why i asked about the MJ18. the kickers specs may seem a little dodgy but they do have great SQ maybe nothin like a shiva x but they do sound pretty decent. about an ep2500 they are $600au+, i was thinkin about an ep1500 if i got the MJ18 but they are still $500+ i can get the plate amp for $250au and i can get the MJ18 for $260au, so either way another 2 12s or an 18 its guna cost about the same thats why i asked for you guys opinion. i am open to suggestions but i would like to keep prices as low as possible about $600 is my limit maybe a little more
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post #4 of 56 Old 03-02-2009, 07:19 PM
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http://www.cowanaudio.com/

maybe something from peerless then?

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post #5 of 56 Old 03-02-2009, 07:24 PM
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http://www.audiomarketplace.com.au/c...art/Itemid,49/

shiva for ausies

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post #6 of 56 Old 03-02-2009, 07:26 PM
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U're better off with an IXL if u dont mind stretching out a tad. Well worth it, IMO. I've built a sealed IXL18 in a 107L box, circa 22inch cube, the bass extention is very well defined and very tight for a music sub. Most people advised me to go ported, but due to size restrictions, i've decided to go sealed. Its powered by an EP2500. For movies, the bass is quite tight and deep and at my listening volumes, I think its sufficient. If I do need the extra extention, i'll build another one. Took me 4 days from build. Bear in mind that the woofer needs a fair bit of running in, which may seem that its not *loud* enough, but be patient, as its gonna be awesome after the coils loosen up.

Now everytime i put on "Eye of the Tiger" track, it rocks so good, that my neighbours were keen and they came over to check it out.
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post #7 of 56 Old 03-02-2009, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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i can get an ixl 18" for $320AU so i may go that way but i dont really wana spend another $500+ on an amp. even an ep1500 is around $490-550au on ebay. thats why i was thinkin 2 more 12s and a bigger plate amp. that shiva x is the same price as an ixl 18". im still open to suggestions people i have all year to work this out i just thought i would start early

if i got the ixl and a ep1500 i could run a coil on each channel and get plenty of headroom. i duno thats guna cost me $800au+ with shipping and MDF i duno if its worth it. i would rather an 18" than more 12s but i can get 2 more 12s (and then i will have 4) and an amp for the price of an ep1500
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post #8 of 56 Old 03-03-2009, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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sorry for the double post but is there any more suggestions?
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post #9 of 56 Old 03-04-2009, 02:22 AM
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Hi, I havent heard the MJ18 but i heard the kickers for i work for the Kicker representative in my city. I dont know what music u listen too, but if u say they sound decent then i guess u like the boomy music. Cuz thats what those sub are like, boomy. I play with them almost every day. I once brought my bass guitar but they couldnt keep up. Well their made in China and their more suited for cars. In light of the above said if i were you i would go for the MJ18.
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post #10 of 56 Old 03-04-2009, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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yea im considering the mj18 or the ixl 18. the kickers i have arent really boomy because the enclosure i built is tuned really low for music (28hz) the enclosure kicker sell them in is tuned to the high 37-40hz that is why they would have sounded boomy or could not keep up with the bass guitar. my only concern with getting an ixl 18 is i need 1000watts rms and i cant find an amp with that for my price range.
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post #11 of 56 Old 03-04-2009, 08:42 PM
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You dont necessarily need 1000w's with the IXL18. If you build it big and tune it low, u can get away without using a subsonic filter as well. Going ported will be much more efficient than a sealed design and will give you extra decibels at a given frequency. If you know how to use WinISD, just plug in some figures and model the driver of choice using the EP1500. Bear in mind that u'll need to do a fan mod (simple) as the stock fan is quite loud and will be intrusive when watching movies, especially scenes that are dialogue driven.

I however, prefer a sealed design, simpler to build, but requires heaps of power to get the desired bass levels in terms of spl.
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post #12 of 56 Old 03-04-2009, 10:02 PM
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aha, i thought u have them in the kicker enclousures. Even so, i would still use the MJ18 even if for the pleasure of trying something else. If u havent listened to 18 inchers before, it will be an experience. I agree with shogo33 u really dont need 1000W. It has pretty high SPL >90dB (93dB/w/m i think) so u will really feel house shacking bass with only 100W for sure. There are plenty of youtube videos with the MJ18 take a look mb it will help you make up ur mind.
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post #13 of 56 Old 03-04-2009, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
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well i was going to power the mj18 with a 600wrms plate amp coz i can get a decent on for relatively cheap. if i got the ixl 18 i would need more than 600wrms i would want at least 700wrms. so its $230au for the mj18 and $230au for the plate amp or $320 for the ixl 18 and $460au+ for an ep1500. if i ended up with the mj18 what you guys recommend for the enclosure remembering its mainly for music. i was thinking about 8-10cuft @26hz for a flat response to about 22hz. i havent really modeled the ixl 18 but i would probly do the same but with a lower tune maybe like 22hz or something just incase i want to watch more movies
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post #14 of 56 Old 03-05-2009, 12:29 AM
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Well tell us what speakers u want to use the sub with so that u can match them good. My opinion is that the plate amp is quite enough for the mj18 for just music. Ofc an EP1500 amp would be better not only because of greater power output but i think plate amps in general lack a good power supply. Still its a decent choice for the MJ18. If u have very sensitive speakers than u might need more power so that the sub can play at same level or the other way around if ur speakers are lazy u wont need that much power for the subwoofer.
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post #15 of 56 Old 03-05-2009, 01:03 AM - Thread Starter
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the speakers i have are pretty bottom range but they do sound decent for the price. the mains/towers have 2 8" woofers an 8" mid and a 1" tweeter they have a sensitivity of 90db @1w@1m and handle 100wrms. they are only dse brand but they get loud and sound decent at the same time. im not really lookin to spend a grand on mains speakers so i didnt and im happy with them its just i need a little more low end
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post #16 of 56 Old 03-05-2009, 01:33 AM
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In this case it is my belief that the plate amp and the MJ18 would be enough and if u plan to use the kickers that you have now it will be more than enough. Im curious are the bass and mid drivers from kevlar on your mains? I had a pair like that with kevlar drivers and indeed it sounded pretty good for their price. For a project with MJ18 i think u will find some designs here on avs if u search.
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post #17 of 56 Old 03-05-2009, 01:50 AM - Thread Starter
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no they are not kevlar. i intend using the 12s for higher bass like 28hz and up and cross the 18 at like 50hz so it picks up the real low end.
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post #18 of 56 Old 03-05-2009, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samstar View Post

no they are not kevlar. i intend using the 12s for higher bass like 28hz and up and cross the 18 at like 50hz so it picks up the real low end.

Don't do this. You'll have phase problems galore.

"Vintage" is good for wine, not for A/V equipment.

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post #19 of 56 Old 03-05-2009, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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ok thanks for the suggestion
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post #20 of 56 Old 03-05-2009, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonoMan View Post

Don't do this. You'll have phase problems galore.

Ditto! I hooked up the current build IXL18 along with my old 12inch shiva build powered by a Jaycar/PartsExpress 350w plate amp in a 1cubic feet box. The bass timings were out and it didnt sound tuneful at all. It was a case of either or. But with the 18IXL or MJM, u'll probably want to use that one as it will go much lower than those kickers..

If u havent bought any items yet, why dont u just download WinISD and just model the subwoofer driver of choice and see what sort of performance you'll be happy with? Remember, bigger the box in a ported design, less juice u'll need.
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post #21 of 56 Old 03-05-2009, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonoMan View Post

Don't do this. You'll have phase problems galore.

IM running 2 12" dvc memphis audio , each in its own box, PLUS im running a 15" dvc memphis audio. Sounds good to me.

Im not the only person doing it, as I have seen many theaters on this very site with people running multiple different size subs.

Sometimes people make up more problems then what there will really be. Not saying you are wrong, but just saying ...
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post #22 of 56 Old 03-05-2009, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mikieson View Post

IM running 2 12" dvc memphis audio , each in its own box, PLUS im running a 15" dvc memphis audio. Sounds good to me.

Im not the only person doing it, as I have seen many theaters on this very site with people running multiple different size subs.

Sometimes people make up more problems then what there will really be. Not saying you are wrong, but just saying ...

Using multiple size subs isn't what would cause the phase problems, it's having different subs, in different locations, overlapping octaves.

and I'm not even going to comment on Memphis audio subs.
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post #23 of 56 Old 03-05-2009, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shogo33 View Post

Ditto! I hooked up the current build IXL18 along with my old 12inch shiva build powered by a Jaycar/PartsExpress 350w plate amp in a 1cubic feet box. The bass timings were out and it didnt sound tuneful at all. It was a case of either or. But with the 18IXL or MJM, u'll probably want to use that one as it will go much lower than those kickers..

If u havent bought any items yet, why dont u just download WinISD and just model the subwoofer driver of choice and see what sort of performance you'll be happy with? Remember, bigger the box in a ported design, less juice u'll need.

i havent bought any items yet. i am actually using the 350w jaycar plate amp to power the kickers and i was guna use their 600w version for the mj18. i dont have WinISD, i have bassbox 6 pro because i find it easier to use. i was mucking around with bassbox and modeled the mj18 in 12cuft @22hz and it was flat to 20hz and with 600wrms doesnt exceed xmax until 15hz. which is plenty low enough for me. if i made the 12cuft box i would use slot port with 100sq inches port area. but i would make the enclosure in a way that i could add another mj18 later on if i decide that isnt enough either. i will try and use sketchup to make a model of the design.
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post #24 of 56 Old 03-06-2009, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgboy View Post

Using multiple size subs isn't what would cause the phase problems, it's having different subs, in different locations, overlapping octaves.

and I'm not even going to comment on Memphis audio subs.

Um...MA subs are among some of the best subs out. The 15" MOJO "which I have" has been on top of the game producing the highest db in single 15" tests. The 12" I have are also rated very good...MOJOS as well..

I would definately buy something with a name and background over all these other subs everyone recommends that I have never even heard of. MalX,soundsplitter...whatever they are...Never even heard of them.

But everyone has their own likes and dislikes so im ok with it.
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post #25 of 56 Old 03-06-2009, 12:18 AM - Thread Starter
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im sorry but how can u not heard of Malx and soundsplinter? im 15 and i no about them. i have been into audio my whole life. im guessing your more into car audio? still open to recommendations and any ideas involving the mj18, ixl18 or the kickers such as enclosure size and tuning. i would prefer the mj18 as being only 15 i dont have a great deal of money. Now just coz i've mentioned that i was 15 doesnt mean i dont no anything

done some modeling in sketchup

12cuft @21-22hz
didnt add bracing in but i would use window style bracing. all measurements are correct port length is correct for the tuning etc...
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post #26 of 56 Old 03-06-2009, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikieson View Post

Um...MA subs are among some of the best subs out. The 15" MOJO "which I have" has been on top of the game producing the highest db in single 15" tests. The 12" I have are also rated very good...MOJOS as well..

I would definately buy something with a name and background over all these other subs everyone recommends that I have never even heard of. MalX,soundsplitter...whatever they are...Never even heard of them.

But everyone has their own likes and dislikes so im ok with it.

You are definitely mixing car audio and home audio, and while some car products can be used, it is not the usual case. It is a rare car sub that can do well in home theater applications. You can get by a lot of fudge factor in car audio that will not work for a good HT setup. The ma sub will not reach anywhere near a Maelstrom, not even in the same league. If it were, you would actually see people here mention it.

If MA were good, they would actually publish specs:
http://www.memphiscaraudio.com/produ...st-subwoofers/
The most you get out them is "magnet weight". Well, damn, that's handy!

I find it odd that you are so dismissive of two of the very top contenders in their field. There is a quote about that- something along the lines of "Tis better to appear a ...."
Whatever.

Lot's of low rent stuff stacked up into a medium rent pile.
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post #27 of 56 Old 03-06-2009, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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i really cant believe that guy hasnt heard of MalX or Soundsplinter. like digital desire said "they are some of the very top contenders." anyway back on the topic anyone got any suggestions on enclosures for the MJ18 so far the one i posted with a sketchup drawing models the best(12cuft@21-22hz). i think i should give it a bit more port area but then it takes up most of the volume of the enclosure and i dont really want anything bigger than that.
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post #28 of 56 Old 03-06-2009, 03:39 PM
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The reason I have never heard of them untill coming here is they are mostly for DIY people. Or so I would think so?

This is how I feel about car audio. Most everyone here is going to dis caraudio like they do BOSE. Its kind of a snobish "im too good to use it" thing. Believe me when I say....Car audio subs will handle anything a "home" sub will and probably more, since car audio is known for its subs and huge bass output.

Not trying to start anything here...but you can go putting down things just "because"..
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post #29 of 56 Old 03-06-2009, 03:48 PM
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It's easy to get loud and low in a car, try the same thing in a large HT or gymnasium...

There are a number of subs marketed for the car audio market that will work just fine in an appropriate box for HT. Of course, the reverse is true as well. When you want to get into the sub 16 hz area at high output in HT, you are entering another realm of what is needed.

To reproduce 16 hz at the same amplitude as 32 hz in the same enclosure you need 4 times the excursion. In order to keep the same amount of cone excursion ( same alignment as above ) you need 4 times the radiating area.

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
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post #30 of 56 Old 03-06-2009, 03:50 PM
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Of course, me and a buddy of mine were conversing last night, and he was playing around in hornresp.... with a single AE AV12X and a HUGE horn @ 1kw input you should be able to generate 145 db at 40 hz, and over 130 @ 12 hz.

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
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