Another subwoofer GTG, Southern style - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 05:01 PM
 
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Brandon,
Thanks for inviting me to the great GTG. You are such a great host. I think that you should give up the DIY subs and start a BBQ joint. Yours was some of the best I have eaten.
I apologize that I had to leave so early. I did not get to listen to a lot of subs, however I had a great experience in meeting so many enthusiasts and just want to say that you are truly great guys. I plan to spend the whole time at the next gathering. I may bring my Bose bass module and embarass those coffin sized subs. I have been told that size isn't everything.
Robert, I may even challenge you to an arm wrestling match. I will be doing 12 oz. curls in preparation for the match.
Thanks again Brandon for being such a great host and allowing all to GTG and share in this wonderful hobby.
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post #542 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

Silly question but, was all of the demo material played with all the speakers involved or some with only the subs?

Also, was Bosso sub there and was anything from AE there?

Thanks, James


All speakers.

Umm. No and No.
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post #543 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 05:59 PM
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What Robert said . We listened to all the music tracks in 2.1 and all the movie clips in 5.1
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post #544 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 06:01 PM
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Still on the road and this battery deal is killing me.

Josh,

I appreciate the Rane. I might take the other if you were serious about not really wanting it. You definitely have "The Goods" in the amp department. Good job on the setup.

Ivan,

I enjoyed all of the info and the subs were very impressive. I will get to the overview when my battery recharges. You have the job I wanted 30 years ago as a young boy, but things went the way they went. I see you really love what you do, and that is what is most important in life. I envy that you get to see by accident what I have to search for. You are a lucky man in that respect. Being surrounded by your hobbies and things that make you happy is a great thing. Keep in touch and keep slamming. By the way, with a couple of the big boys, mike would have had to call in his crew to help remodel Brandon's house.

Battery gone,

Later,

Robert
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post #545 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 06:43 PM
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4. Shiva x. This was a treat. By far, the best integrated for the entire system. Spl was at 115. Music was spectacular. It was what I want in my next build. At the price point, this was worth every penny. It would be an expensive deal if it was a commercially available system. Not one thing I could say in the negative until the THX demo. For whatever reason, it was way too much for this wonderful system. Nice tight bass and good build quality. All around performer. Good job.
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post #546 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 06:48 PM
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No raven? The line up was pretty sweet regardless, especially with the Worx and Danley stuff!

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
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post #547 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 07:10 PM
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Ya bosso had to cancel at the last minute.
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post #548 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 07:15 PM
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We have stopped a the local Wal Mart to get a power converter. Might be in business soon
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post #549 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright, here's my formal impressions of the subwoofers. Let me say that none disappointed, most met expectations and some exceeded. A couple by far.

We did testing as straight across the board as we could. We played every sub in the same location so there would be no variation in sound because of room gain/loss from a different placement. We also played the same music and movies with each sub to ensure that nothing was up for discussion about the sub that might've played better with some other music or movies. We also did two separate measurements with each sub. Ricci did a 1 yard measurement directly in front of the sub, mic front pointed toward the driver. Ivan took a measurement close to the opposing back wall of the room with the mic front pointed at the wall to account for room the room itself adding to the sub. I thought the tests and observations were made as fairly as we could do in the amount of time we had with the subs.

Bic H100 - Call it first impressions, but before this sub we only did a few sweeps and pink noise so this was the first subwoofer I heard with music or movies yesterday. Before people started arriving I didn't listen to anything, so when this was played I was actually amazed at the sound coming from this $250 subwoofer. I believe Robert was impressed too because he had to ask 2 or 3 times, almost in disbelief it seemed, that this sub only cost $250. I think it performed very well with music. It seemed like when we started the sub wasn't set to run real hot, so it blended with the main speakers better than some of the rest. With movies it wasn't a huge performer. I think it gave up in the low 30's or upper 20's in room, but it was still very solid. Sounded very good with the Tool track we had on the music cd. This sub got my rating for most shocking (in a good way) of the day.

Outlaw LFM-1 compact - I didn't think this sub did quite as well on music as the Bic, but performed better on movies. I can possibly attribute this to its design. It was a 10" driver opposed to the 12 on the Bic, but the enclosure was larger than the Bic. I've seen that the larger the box the better when it comes to ported subs, up to a point. We had to back the gain down some on this sub at the beginning, but after that it blended very well with the mains. Very clean sound.

ED A7S-450 - When this sub started out we left the same gain with it and could immediately tell that it had much more to it than the previous two subs. It has an 18" driver with a 1300 watt amp in a sealed enclosure. The driver is the same used in my sub, so I was familiar with it's limits and the general sound of it. I thought that in the upper bass it wouldn't do quite as well in quality as the smaller drivers, but in output it could best them easily. The sub seemed much louder than the previous two and that did have an effect on how people judged it I believe. The sub was playing at least 10 dB hotter than the mains, and that contributed to the "muddiness" that I and some of the others may have said about the sound. I run my sub very close to my listening position with zero dB extra over the mains, so when the sub is too loud I notice. In saying this I could tell that if the mains would've been louder, the sub itself would have barely been noticeable. Aside from that I thought it did very well in the music and did pretty well with the movies.

Shiva 12" - When this sub was first brought into my house I could tell it was going to be a performer. Very large enclosure for a 12" sub and dual ports ensured no port noise and a very good response. It's a design that I'm very fond of. I think that trying to cram a driver in a tiny box and throwing a port on it just for output sake doesn't work well most times. I'm waiting for the graphs for this sub as I think it should be pretty good. The sub did great on the music we played and it had some good slam in the movies also. As others have said, we nearly killed the driver with a very hot signal and low frequency signal from "Bass I Love You". After that it performed very well and I think it surprised everyone. At a total build cost of $450 this sub gets my vote for "Best Buy" for the day. Very well made and good professional looking finish to boot.

Audiopulse Epic 12" dual - While others may not have liked this sub, I thought what it was putting out was a very clean sound with music. It was in a small 1 cubic foot per side sealed box, so the sound I was expecting with music was a very tight sound, and it did do that. For movies it had a very steep rolloff in the frequency department, but I attribute that more to the enclosure than the drivers. At $129 each driver, this was a good buy also. It would benefit from a larger sealed, or possibly a ported box to get that extra low end rumble.

ED 190v.2 LLT - This is my sub, so I won't go into too much detail about it. I will say that this is the first home theater sub that I've built and I had my fingers crossed that it was built the way I designed it. The graphs confirmed that tuning was about 15.4 hz and that's almost spot on what I designed it for. I thought I may have needed a bigger port during a couple songs/scenes do to noise, but we figured out it was shaking the door sitting behind it. After hearing the other subs, especially the larger/more expensive ones, I am going to build a better enclosure with a little lower tuning, and will either buy another one to duplicate my first or build another LLT with a better driver.

LMS 18" - This subwoofer was a pleaser. It was in a very small box for the size of the driver, and that is a big plus in most people's books. It had a VERY clean sound. I've heard that that is attributed to the actual LMS design and it delivered a very impressive performance with music and movies. The driver was pushed hard enough at one point that the surround started dimpling, but even at that point it didn't seem to be pushed too hard. The sound coming from the driver was probably the smoothest of all the subs. I'd like to hear this thing in a LLT designed enclosure. It would surely shake the ground. I had very high expectations of this sub. So high in fact I thought I would be let down by the actual sound of the sub, but I was not. Very cool looking driver too.

XXX 18" - This sub was almost as good as the LMS in every category. It surpassed the LMS in output capability, but fell slightly behind in how smooth the sound was. It has seemingly endless excursion capabilities and takes on a new form when it's played loud. Didn't seem stressed at all during movies and music. I would have a hard time deciding between this one and the LMS if I had the option of one, but being that I listen to movies more than music, I would probably choose this one. because of the extra several millimeters of xmax. Highly recommended if anyone is looking for a hard pounding sub to build.

Worx 18" - This is a very unusual driver in that the surround is an accordion shape than the standard surround look. It really put out some SPL's and seems to have very high power handling too. We ran this off the ITECH amp that provides up to 8000 watts. The amp was running off a 220 volt dryer outlet. In movies it didn't have the output down below port tuning, but it still played very loud. It wasn't quite as clean as some of the others, but it did have a very good sound with music. On the movies I could see this sub being a real performer in a commercial movie theater. Line about 4 or 5 of these up in a commercial theater and it would be very loud, even in that large space.

Danley CS-30 - I had pre-conceived notions about this sub. It's a pseudo bandpass subwoofer with a 12" driver, so I thought it would had a very one note sound. I was proven wrong with this sub. It is probably the best designed bandpass sub I've ever heard. The others I have heard have been in either my car or other's cars and they tend to be very boomy. This sub had a sound that was clean. Almost as clean as the LMS. I thought it did great on the music. If I had a dedicated 2.1 channel rig just for music I would choose this sub for that application. It wasn't extremely loud and didn't have the low end slam on movies like the other subs, but that may be because of the bandpass design. Didn't think I would like this sub, but I was very impressed with this sub. Exceeded expectations.

Danley TH-SPUD - This sub is a tapped horn dual 8" driver subwoofer that has several installation options. It can be stood on it's side, or laid down and put a couch on top of it. I wasn't as impressed with this sub as the CS30 in sound quality, but it had it beat in output easily.

Danley Monster Ultra Super Duper Beast TH50 (unofficial name) - I would love to have this sub. I may have to write a more thorough review later, as I could write pages on this sub, even from the short time we had with it. It is a absolutely massive sub that only incorporates a single, albeit a single HUGE 15" driver also in a horn config. Most would think that there is only so much you can do with a single 15, but this thing made me think again. It was the SPL beast and wasn't taxed at all during the testing. At most, I think it was actually only receiving a few hundred watts of power and still managed nearly 130 dB in my 4000+ cubic foot room. It was just as clean as the CS30, if not cleaner, but had it beat in output by an entire universe. This sub finally got me close to the feeling of when I had a blasting car audio system. When sitting at least 15 feet away I could physically feel my clothes flapping. To make this sub the ultimate perfect subwoofer would require 1 more thing, and that's better extension. It still played the 16 hz from bass i love you with authority, but seems like it just wasn't as impressive as the low 20's. I will write more about this sub later, but right now I want to put my room back together.
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post #550 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 08:07 PM
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Well, it did not work- I should have known. The converter goes into overload shutdown soon as plugged in.
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post #551 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 08:09 PM
 
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My thoughts on the subs:

BIC 100: For a $250.00 sub I was surprised that it did as well as it did. It did not go real low, but it did sound decent. Little bit of boomy ness . It made a better movie sub than music sub. Place two or more in a small room and it would do pretty good for movies. This sub did not like the THX scene.

LFM-1C: This sub had similar output to the BIC, but it played cleaner and I think it may have gone a little lower. This sub did not like the THX scene.

ED A7S-450: This is one of my subs and I had never heard the A7S-450 and the Shiva in the same room. I was surprised by what I learned. After listening to the LFM the A7S-450 did not sound as musical. It did have more output, hit harder and it did go a little lower than the LFM. This sub did not sound as good as I expected. Better sub for movies than music. This sub did not like the THX scene.

Shiva-X: This is also one of my subs. I will have to admit, before testing I expected the A7S-450 to do better than the Shiva, but that was not the case. The Shiva played much cleaner and it went down lower. It did not seem to have as much output as the A7S-450, but it did have good output. This sub is a good choice for music or movies. This sub did not like the THX scene. As another poster said we had to cut the gain down because we hit the limits with the driver.

Twin TC Sounds: Nice drivers, but Robert did not have time to build a proper box for them. He slapped them in an existing car box that was way too small. Robert knew that the box was too small, but decided to try it anyway. Correct size box and these should sound pretty good.

Large ported sub using ED 18” driver: This sub uses the same driver as the A7S-450. With this sub being ported it went lower than the A7S-450. It sounded very similar to the A7S-450, but as I said it went lower. Like the A7S-450 this sub sounded better on the movie scenes than it did with music.

LMS 5400: This sub has a lot of excursion and you could tell it. It hit hard and it went low. We were running this sub pretty hot and I think that hurt it when listening to music. It was so much sub that it ran off and left the mains and I think that hurt this sub on the music. As hot as we were running this sub it sounded very good on the movie scenes, except for the THX scene. On the THX scene the gain had to be cut down. The THX scene is really tough on a sub if you are running it hot.

RE XXX: This sub was just about the same as the LMS 5400, except it seemed to have a little bit more. This sub did the best (so far) on the THX scene and the best sub for movies so far.

Worx: This sub has ridicules output. It seemed to overpower everything else. It had a lot of impact in the mid bass area. In my opinion, you need a pair of these (by each main) and a pair of low tuned subs in a large room.

CS30: This sounded nice for music and movies, but it did not go very low. It did not overpower the room. A pair of these by each main and a pair of low tuned subs and you would have a very nice system. This sub was the best so far for music and pretty good for movies except for the lowest frequencies in so of the movie scenes.

TH Spud: Similar to the CS30, but I think it went just a touch lower and maybe a little bit more output. Sounded good with music and not bad with the movie scenes.

TH 50: This sub was a beast. It sounded great for music and/or movies. This one sub filled the room very well. In my opinion, this is the only sub that did justice with the THX scene.

Now I do need to add some thoughts on what I learned. This was my first chance to listen to some pretty good subs. In my (small) room I use multiple (6) subs. I know very well what my room sounds like with several of the movie scenes that we used. I expected the bigger subs (that had so much output) to fill the room as much as my multiple smaller subs, but that was not the case. While these subs would go louder, they did not fill the room as much as I expected. The only sub that did fill the room was the TH 50. Brandon’s room is larger than mine so I know this plays a part in this, but this really emphasized to me the advantage of having several subs over one really expensive sub. Of course if you can have several really expensive subs then that would be even better.

My system choices: (trying to be some what reasonable and not just say four subs)

Cost no object: Two TH 50’s
Option two for cost no object: Two CS30’s for mid bass and two RE XXX’s (ported) for the low end.

I think every room needs more than one sub and larger rooms need even more.

I had a good time and I would also would like to thank Josh and Ivan for all of the work that they did in getting the equipment set up for testing .
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post #552 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 08:27 PM
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Here's a break down of what went on. Vili covered it pretty well, but this is the expanded version.

We placed all of the subs in the same relative spot with a little bit of leeway for the the biggest cabs. We got things as close as we could. The sub position was up front by the left main as seen in the pics. Brandon's room I felt was fairly hard to drive compared to some other rooms (more on that later). It's decent sized, oddly shaped and open too. The subs were next to the doorway to the kitchen and there's a big closet in the room. Also as mentioned...With all of the people and equipment in the room it got real stuffy quickly, which led to us opening the windows sometime after the Shiva (I think?). I thought that the low bass noticeably dropped in level with them open. At least where I stayed all day.

We ran the commercial subs first for simplicity, followed by the DIY subs and lastly the PRO's. This would also build up our output levels throughout the day towards the more powerful subs.

Everything used a 100hz x over from Brandon's receiver with Brandon's Athena mains. The commercials were run as is. The DIY's and PRO's were all run from a single channel of one of the Crest 8002's (1400w rated at 4 ohm) except for the LMS and XXX which I ran bridged on the same 8002. The Worx TL118S we ran on 1 channel of Robert's IT8000. The Danley TH50 Ivan decided to kick up a notch and run a channel of the PL9.0 into it.

Ivan and myself would both get a quick measurement of the subs when they got placed in position. Then we set the levels. We ran the 2 channel music tracks first to check for tonal issues and we ran the same ones into each sub. We mostly just stuck to the first minute or 2 of each track. Then we switched to the movies and did those scenes. Taking notes in the meantime. Unplug the sub, move the new one in place, wash, rinse, repeat. Occasionally throughout the day we started skipping certain scenes as we learned which ones were the best to use.

Here is the 2 channel track list and a description of why I decided on that track.

1. Vast: The Last One Alive
This has a slow build up with a lot of solo bass up in the x over region which builds into some lower tones and finally a beefy kick drum.

2. Tool: Prison Sex
This track is well recorded and the bass and drums are mixed very thick, but are full of nuance in both at the same time.

3. Primus: DMV
This is really punchy drums hits and has a lot of slappy stringy bass sounds all throughout the x over area. If any one note sticks out it's apparent.

4. Cake: The Distance
The bass is sort of funky low-fi but at the same time covers a lot of range and is fairly hot in the mix. Look for any one note that sticks out too much or is MIA.

5. Bass I Love You
I put this on there to see if I could blow up anyone's sub. Seriously it starts out with a mean 30hz note and also has notes at 25hz, 16hz and even 7hz. The 16hz separates the men from the boys. Ivan liked this one and thought maybe it was Danley demo material.

6. Bass Mekanik: Toccata and Fugue
A rip off of Bach's famous work injected with mad bass. Huge 16hz notes, ascending and descending scales and quick changes.

7. SoundGarden: Fresh Tendrils
There is a lot of bass work in this that is just not there on a sloppy or un-even system.

8. Rush: Tom Sawyer
If I need to explain this then it's probably not worth trying to explain anyway.

9. Mudvayne: Trapped In The Wake Of a Dream

This is a heavier bit of music but it has punchy drums and a thick down tuned B string bass that is really well played and recorded. The bass guitar is all over the place and the song has both lighter less cluttered sections and denser heavier sections with fast kick drum hits.

10. The Baroness: Wailing Wintry Wind
This ended up as one of the better tracks IMO not just for drums but for overall system performance. It's a slow build with a floor tom and various stereo guitar effects and the drums come in with a very well recorded live sound and build up on the toms and snare before finally kicking in with a lot of bass and very textured bass guitar work and fat drum sounds.


The movie tracks were in this order. I'll not explain these because most people reading this are familiar with them. I think I have these right...

1. THX Trailer: flower opening.
This and Bass I Love You were the real torture tracks in the line up. If a sub got overdriven or fell on it's face it was with one of those 2 tracks nearly every time.

2. Pearl harbor: 50cal machine gun blasts.

3. U571: depth charges

4. The Matrix Revolution: Neo talking to the machine

5. Kung Fu Panda: Thai Lung escape scene

6. The Incredible Hulk: Sonic Cannons
For some reason this just didn't have any real umph to it. Not like when I watch it at my place. It just seemed like it was lower in level than the others and would've needed about 6db more to be the same level as the others. Not sure what happened. That movie is very hot in the sub bass, but it just wasn't there on the disc.

7. Master and Commander: opening cannon battle.

8. Die Hard with a Vengeance: F22 attack scene.

9. War of The Worlds: Pod Emergence.
I felt like this one was similar to the Hulk and was just not near as hot as it is on disc. Still bassy but it didn't have that disgusting hotness in the ULF that it is legendary for, while M&C and Die Hard 4 did.
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post #553 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 08:34 PM
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I'll post up my impressions of each sub tomorrow and further explain some things that went on during the day: THX scene, levels we were using, things I noticed about Brandon's room, measurements, the x over used, etc.

I'll post up the measurements after that.
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post #554 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 10:04 PM
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battery charged a little, here it goes


5. Tc epic 12. I am completely disappointed in this thing for the purpose we tried it for. It may well be great in a car, but for a HT or home music sub, it is a loser. The woofers were moving great distances and the xmax is as good as stated in the specs. I probably should have given a little attention to the build of a cabinet for these guys.

6. Brandon's ED. Big boy of a sub. Nice deep sound. Kind of like the other ED, but more extension with less effort. SPL 115.5. It integrated well with the mains and did not stand out on its own so much as the other ED. The cabinet did vibrate a bunch due to its non brace issues, but it did what it was designed to do-play loud and low. For the cost of a few sheets of wood and the driver, you get a big dog to play with.- not a bad deal. I did, however, think that the driver was being asked to do an unfair amount of work at times. A little less throttle may have given a better result.
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post #555 of 781 Old 04-19-2009, 10:57 PM
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7. LMS 5400. Small sealed box. I am extremely impressed with the excursion capabilities of this woofer. It is the real deal. I do think- just my opinion, that the box size could be a tad larger. I would have liked to test both the LMS and XXX in the same box. The LMS definitely raised the bar at that point. It was in the smallest box to woofer displacement of all, except maybe my offering, and it had kick in the pants abilities. I was right up close to the side of the driver for most of the demo. The box was actually rocking and the driver was flapping like the flags at the opening of a grocery store. Very impressive to say the least. I, myself, have four LMS drivers and thought they were moving pretty good until this. In comparison, mine are barely on. Clean, lots of output from a very small footprint 18. I want to see the graphs later to see the extension capabilities. By the way, I moved back in front of it during the movie scenes and it was a totally different experience. Pressure increase and kick was intense. SPL was at 121.7 or so. I like the removable baffle. For the cost of the driver at the time, and some wood, I do not think you could beat this in the perfect box.

8
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post #556 of 781 Old 04-20-2009, 12:38 AM
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"ED A7S-450 - When this sub started out we left the same gain with it and could immediately tell that it had much more to it than the previous two subs...The sub was playing at least 10 dB hotter than the mains,"

Each sub's level wasn't matched to the mains?

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post #557 of 781 Old 04-20-2009, 01:03 AM
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Well, I am home. I think I can finish this.

8. XXX. What can I say. The name says it all. You could possibly rent this out as a jackhammer. It was in a rather large enclosure compared to the lms. I would have liked to see it in an enclosure of exact dimensions of the lms (large or small) to give an apples to apples review. But, nevertheless, here it goes. The sub was extreme to say the least. It handled every passage with ease. Never did it flutter or stumble. No noise or spurious sounds at all. Again, I was next to the driver and the cabinet vibrated like a massage chair. The cabinet actually "rocked" front to back even though it was squat to the ground and twice as long as the LMS cabinet. I think if the cabinet was 2-3 layers thick, it would have been even better. The cabinet was giving up a lot of energy. I really wish the LMS and the XXX were put head to head with the same power and box size. That would be a good next GTG setup. Anyway, we got SPL of around 121 windows and doors were open all over the place. It was clean and strong. It ate the power and spit it back out. Very impressive. Easily one of the best sealed single driver boxes I have felt in my life. Good job.

9. The Worx. This is a consumate performer. I love this thing. It reminds me of my JBL's. Great power handling, clean output. This is what a commercial PA sub should be. Hey, it sounded fine even doing HT duty, although it did not dig as deep. It is a purpose built sub, just like all of the subs are, and it performs it's job admirably. I would use these as subs for each channel with horn loaded upper mains and lay an LFE cabinet in the mix. That way, you would get high efficiency and low end extension. This sub went to about 124-5. It was like being at a concert.


10. CS 30. This sub had a lot of the same characteristics of the Worx, but lower output. It would be great as subs for each channel because of the footprint and the output. Along with an LFE monster, they could rule the roost. They were not too shabby on their own as the LFE. Great performer with SPL at about 111 with windows and doors open mostly.

11.Spud. I like the idea, but it is big. It needed to be where it belongs, and tested that way. The sub probably works better when it is near your seating position. I was over 15-18 feet away and it was the furthest of all subs from me. I feel it did not give me the output I expected- just the opposite of the CS 30. Good sound and extension, but limited clean output. I could be wrong, but I think the output was at 108 for me.

12. TH 50. I was not expecting the output that this sub delivered. One 15 in a big box. I would like to have had the same driver in a little sealed box to see the real difference the box makes. I am a firm believer in horn technology. Klipsch fan here. Anyway, Ivan definitely made a statement. The numbers can only tell part of a story. The SPL was 128 or so, with 1- 15 in a loose opened up room. The impact was extreme. I was directly in front of it against the opposite wall. It was impressive. I underestimated it from the beginning. Although only 4 db louder than the Worx, it produced a totally different "feel". I would have liked to reduce the input a little to keep the driver from stressing so much and add a second box to get the output back up without stress to either driver. At times, I detected a little hint of "TOO MUCH" from it, probably because I was directly in front of the driver. However, this was a demonstration of "What I can do" and it showed us all. Good job. My vote for Best of show award goes to the TH 50.



I had a wonderful time up there. I thank all of you for being so cordial. I now feel I have a whole new bunch of friends to share experiences with. I really wish I could have contributed more as far as a demo cabinet, but my cabs are not being moved by me in the forseeable future. Anytime any of you guys are coming my way, give me a shout and drop by. I would like to get a knowledgable opinion of my project. Hey Josh, you should drop in on some old friends and make a trip down here one day. Again, thanks for the Rane. I will put it to good use.

Again, thanks for the GTG.We should really do it again sometime.


Good luck to all,

Robert
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"ED A7S-450 - When this sub started out we left the same gain with it and could immediately tell that it had much more to it than the previous two subs...The sub was playing at least 10 dB hotter than the mains,"

Each sub's level wasn't matched to the mains?


They were pinked, but when this thing kicked on with the music, bang it was ferocious. Ivan and Josh had things under control at all times. After they were level matched and set at the correct "hotness", the only thing that changed was the subs and sometimes the next sub blew it out of the park. For instance, when my 12's were hooked up right after the shiva, the output-with nothing else changed but the driver- went up over 10 db. How do you handle that other than turn it down for that one and reset the level with the pink noise. Even then, when played they ended up louder by a lot. This was a gathering of a lot of people who mostly showed up right at test time and these things were set up "cold". All that was really known for most of the products was what the owner told them. It would have been nice to have an unlimited time to measure and remeasure each system and measure them against each other, but what fun is just measuring. We listened and it was good.


As they become more frquent, and each person learns more about setup and measuring, it will become easier to integrate and measure these devices.

Good luck,

Robert
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Well, I am home. I think I can finish this.

8. XXX. What can I say. The name says it all. You could possibly rent this out as a jackhammer. It was in a rather large enclosure compared to the lms. I would have liked to see it in an enclosure of exact dimensions of the lms (large or small) to give an apples to apples review. But, nevertheless, here it goes. The sub was extreme to say the least. It handled every passage with ease. Never did it flutter or stumble. No noise or spurious sounds at all. Again, I was next to the driver and the cabinet vibrated like a massage chair. The cabinet actually "rocked" front to back even though it was squat to the ground and twice as long as the LMS cabinet. I think if the cabinet was 2-3 layers thick, it would have been even better. The cabinet was giving up a lot of energy. I really wish the LMS and the XXX were put head to head with the same power and box size. That would be a good next GTG setup. Anyway, we got SPL of around 121 windows and doors were open all over the place. It was clean and strong. It ate the power and spit it back out. Very impressive. Easily one of the best sealed single driver boxes I have felt in my life. Good job.

9. The Worx. This is a consumate performer. I love this thing. It reminds me of my JBL's. Great power handling, clean output. This is what a commercial PA sub should be. Hey, it sounded fine even doing HT duty, although it did not dig as deep. It is a purpose built sub, just like all of the subs are, and it performs it's job admirably. I would use these as subs for each channel with horn loaded upper mains and lay an LFE cabinet in the mix. That way, you would get high efficiency and low end extension. This sub went to about 124-5. It was like being at a concert.


10. CS 30. This sub had a lot of the same characteristics of the Worx, but lower output. It would be great as subs for each channel because of the footprint and the output. Along with an LFE monster, they could rule the roost. They were not too shabby on their own as the LFE. Great performer with SPL at about 111 with windows and doors open mostly.

11.Spud. I like the idea, but it is big. It needed to be where it belongs, and tested that way. The sub probably works better when it is near your seating position. I was over 15-18 feet away and it was the furthest of all subs from me. I feel it did not give me the output I expected- just the opposite of the CS 30. Good sound and extension, but limited clean output. I could be wrong, but I think the output was at 108 for me.

12. TH 50. I was not expecting the output that this sub delivered. One 15 in a big box. I would like to have had the same driver in a little sealed box to see the real difference the box makes. I am a firm believer in horn technology. Klipsch fan here. Anyway, Ivan definitely made a statement. The numbers can only tell part of a story. The SPL was 128 or so, with 1- 15 in a loose opened up room. The impact was extreme. I was directly in front of it against the opposite wall. It was impressive. I underestimated it from the beginning. Although only 4 db louder than the Worx, it produced a totally different "feel". I would have liked to reduce the input a little to keep the driver from stressing so much and add a second box to get the output back up without stress to either driver. At times, I detected a little hint of "TOO MUCH" from it, probably because I was directly in front of the driver. However, this was a demonstration of "What I can do" and it showed us all. Good job. My vote for Best of show award goes to the TH 50.



I had a wonderful time up there. I thank all of you for being so cordial. I now feel I have a whole new bunch of friends to share experiences with. I really wish I could have contributed more as far as a demo cabinet, but my cabs are not being moved by me in the forseeable future. Anytime any of you guys are coming my way, give me a shout and drop by. I would like to get a knowledgable opinion of my project. Hey Josh, you should drop in on some old friends and make a trip down here one day. Again, thanks for the Rane. I will put it to good use.

Again, thanks for the GTG.We should really do it again sometime.


Good luck to all,

Robert


Robert, did the TH50 have 4dB of headroom on the TL118SS or were they running at different levels? I would have loved to send the TL218SS (double version - about the same size at the TH50), but we had to return that one

Looks like you guys had a lot of fun, wish i could have attended, let me know what the deal is with the Epic you had an issue with.

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[quote=Ricci;16301112]Here's a break down of what went on. Vili covered it pretty well, but this is the expanded version.

We placed all of the subs in the same relative spot with a little bit of leeway for the the biggest cabs. We got things as close as we could. The sub position was up front by the left main as seen in the pics. Brandon's room I felt was fairly hard to drive compared to some other rooms (more on that later). It's decent sized, oddly shaped and open too. The subs were next to the doorway to the kitchen and there's a big closet in the room. Also as mentioned...With all of the people and equipment in the room it got real stuffy quickly, which led to us opening the windows sometime after the Shiva (I think?). I thought that the low bass noticeably dropped in level with them open. At least where I stayed all day.



I have not had enough experience in listening to other rooms. I will admit that I was surprised that the subs did not fill Brandon's room as much as I thought they would. I guess that makes since to me now that you said the room was hard to drive.

We opened the window after the A7S-450. The first sub tested with the window open was the Shiva.
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I can say that while we were listening to the subs at a higher level, the mains were kept tame a bit for a couple reasons. First I have smaller bookshelves for mains and there would be no way they would keep up with some of the louder subs, so we didn't even try. A bigger reason is that we were going to be listening to music and movies for 10+ hours so we wanted to keep listening fatigue at a minimum. If we had listened to subs at 115 db and up and mains at 110 or more we would have had horrible ringing ears by the end of the day. Bass, to me anyway, is not quite as taxing on the ears as higher freqs. We were still hitting 100+ on the mains on peak scenes, but that was usually only a few seconds. Even with these steps taken, by the time we got around to the pro subs my ears were getting a bit tired.
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Originally Posted by KyleLee View Post

Robert, did the TH50 have 4dB of headroom on the TL118SS or were they running at different levels? I would have loved to send the TL218SS (double version - about the same size at the TH50), but we had to return that one

Looks like you guys had a lot of fun, wish i could have attended, let me know what the deal is with the Epic you had an issue with.

Kyle,

These things were different animals altogether. The TH 50 was way more-period. It was an absolute sasquatch and crushed everything that showed up. Ran it off of the PL 9.0 and the Worx off of the ITECH. I think the 4 db of headroom was the answer. Someone else will probably have more to say, but it did prove a point- bigger (box that is)does seem to be better-sometimes.


That particular epic does have rub and it clanks. It still functions, but I want these things to be as close to perfect as possible, because I want to know that it is my box design that is the limiting factor and not the driver.

Thanks,

Robert
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Sounds like all in all, everything went smoothly and everyone had a pretty darn good time at the event, thanks for making this possible for the group and sharing your home for the documentation of comparison sake....

Congrats on the success of a day well planned...
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I can say that while we were listening to the subs at a higher level, the mains were kept tame a bit for a couple reasons. First I have smaller bookshelves for mains and there would be no way they would keep up with some of the louder subs, so we didn't even try. A bigger reason is that we were going to be listening to music and movies for 10+ hours so we wanted to keep listening fatigue at a minimum. If we had listened to subs at 115 db and up and mains at 110 or more we would have had horrible ringing ears by the end of the day. Bass, to me anyway, is not quite as taxing on the ears as higher freqs. We were still hitting 100+ on the mains on peak scenes, but that was usually only a few seconds. Even with these steps taken, by the time we got around to the pro subs my ears were getting a bit tired.

research shows taking N-acetyl cysteine before exposure to loud noises dramatically helps prevent hearing loss.... i'm gonna start taking that before i go to these stupid night clubs i always end up at.

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post #565 of 781 Old 04-20-2009, 11:30 AM
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Here's a few further notes on things.

Levels
Like Brandon said. We tried to keep the mains, which were WAY outgunned once we got to the bigger subs, in a comfortable level for them and also ourselves so that our ears weren't overly fatigued from the mids and highs at the end of the day. Even still I know a few of us were getting there by the end. There's only so much you can expect from little bookshelves powered by a receiver. BTW I thought that the Athena's did well. They sounded darn good for the ridiculous low price that Brandon paid for them.

We started out setting the levels for the first sub (Bic H100) about as high as we felt it and the Athena's could handle well. I believe at about 5db hot on the SW. This is a sub meet after all. We used a level of -25db on Brandon's receiver all day. His Athena's stayed there for every track. This resulted in pink noise levels of about 70-72db for his speakers during the set-up procedure. What Ivan and myself failed to realize during all of the madness (neither did anyone else ) was that this corresponds to about -5db from REF or higher for movies, the subs were set hot and we started with the 2 channel music tracks . Needless to say levels had to get dialed back quickly on some subs once we hit Bass I Love You, or switched to the THX trailer. DOH! We had originally planned to run every sub at the exact same calibrated level, but with such a huge range of power and very limited time (12 subs in 12hours), we gave up on this. It would've been silly to listen to the Worx and TH50 at the same levels as the little Outlaw LFM1 C. They are made to JAM and we didn't have time to do quiet listening and then another whole session of cranking on them. What we ended up doing was using the THX intro and Bass I Love You to set the levels the old fashioned way. Slowly increase the gain to a level where the sub would handle the THX scene without signs of undue distress and just leave it there. If the sub would handle that track it would be fine with everything else for the most part. Yes this resulted in a wide range of sub levels, but I believe the differences in useable extension, output, impact and relative strength for HT were more easily realized this way. The music tracks would've been imbalanced and were later on with the big subs but you could still tell what was being brought by each sub easily IMO. If a sub sounds clearer and smoother, while at a higher overall volume that another sub cant even touch anyway...

100hz xover.
We were using an indicated 100hz xover for everything but to me it seemed like there was a lot of extra output above this from the subs. This may have been due to the jacked SW level relative to the mains though. I think some of the other guys noted this. Some people wanted to use a lower 60hz type x over, but the mains wouldn't have handled that well I don't think.

Brandon's Room/ Listening positions
As noted quite a few of us thought it was hard to pressurize or drive (Ivan probably didn't since he is used to friggin arena's and the like). The upper bass seemd fine but the lows were not getting much boost that I could tell. Both mine and Ivan's measurements I believe will show less low end than is expected.

For the most part it seemed like everyone stayed in the same general area throughout the day for listening. Vili and mjg100( Mike) stayed in the back right corner area, Robert stayed over on the left side, Ivan stayed by his rack and laptop in the front left by the closet and I basically sat Indian style in the middle of the floor the whole day centered more or less between the speakers. For me I think this contributed to my feeling that the room was difficult to drive. Later on I sat in some of the other spots closer to walls to see what they sounded like and there was a truckload of more bass in most of those. Only the bigger subs had any real power in the lows where I was at the whole day.

We were over amped the whole day. Just one channel of the 8002 was more than most of the stuff could handle comfortably. We only saw one clip light all day and that was on the CS30 which is a nominal 8 ohm load, so it was seeing about 800-900w peaks from one channel. Ivan was pushing it pretty hard on some music tracks at that point. That was it.
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Here's a few further notes on things.

Levels
Like Brandon said. We tried to keep the mains, which were WAY outgunned once we got to the bigger subs, in a comfortable level for them and also ourselves so that our ears weren't overly fatigued from the mids and highs at the end of the day. Even still I know a few of us were getting there by the end. There's only so much you can expect from little bookshelves powered by a receiver. BTW I thought that the Athena's did well. They sounded darn good for the ridiculous low price that Brandon paid for them.

We started out setting the levels for the first sub (Bic H100) about as high as we felt it and the Athena's could handle well. I believe at about 5db hot on the SW. This is a sub meet after all. We used a level of -25db on Brandon's receiver all day. His Athena's stayed there for every track. This resulted in pink noise levels of about 70-72db for his speakers during the set-up procedure. What Ivan and myself failed to realize during all of the madness (neither did anyone else ) was that this corresponds to about -5db from REF or higher for movies, the subs were set hot and we started with the 2 channel music tracks . Needless to say levels had to get dialed back quickly on some subs once we hit Bass I Love You, or switched to the THX trailer. We had originally planned to run every sub at the exact same calibrated level, but with such a huge range of power and very limited time (12 subs in 12hours), we gave up on this. It would've been silly to listen to the Worx and TH50 at the same levels as the little Outlaw LFM1 C. They are made to JAM and we didn't have time to do quiet listening and then another whole session of cranking on them. What we ended up doing was using the THX intro and Bass I Love You to set the levels the old fashioned way. Slowly increase the gain to a level where the sub would handle the THX scene without signs of undue distress and just leave it there. If the sub would handle that track it would be fine with everything else for the most part. Yes this resulted in a wide range of sub levels, but I believe the differences in useable extension, output, impact and relative strength for HT were more easily realized this way. The music tracks would've been imbalanced and were later on with the big subs but you could still tell what was being brought by each sub easily IMO. If a sub sounds clearer and smoother, while at a higher overall volume that another sub cant even touch anyway...

100hz xover.
We were using an indicated 100hz xover for everything but to me it seemed like there was a lot of extra output above this from the subs. This may have been due to the jacked SW level relative to the mains though. I think some of the other guys noted this. Some people wanted to use a lower 60hz type x over, but the mains wouldn't have handled that well I don't think.

Brandon's Room/ Listening positions
As noted quite a few of us thought it was hard to pressurize or drive (Ivan probably didn't since he is used to friggin arena's and the like). The upper bass seemd fine but the lows were not getting much boost that I could tell. Both mine and Ivan's measurements I believe will show less low end than is expected.

For the most part it seemed like everyone stayed in the same general area throughout the day for listening. Vili and mjg100( Mike) stayed in the back right corner area, Robert stayed over on the left side, Ivan stayed by his rack and laptop in the front left by the closet and I basically sat Indian style in the middle of the floor the whole day centered more or less between the speakers. For me I think this contributed to my feeling that the room was difficult to drive. Later on I sat in some of the other spots closer to walls to see what they sounded like and there was a truckload of more bass in most of those. Only the bigger subs had any real power in the lows where I was at the whole day.


if you were up against a wall, im sure the low end would have been much louder ,bass is extremely difficult to level coverage in a room.

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post #567 of 781 Old 04-20-2009, 11:47 AM
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if you were up against a wall, im sure the low end would have been much louder ,bass is extremely difficult to level coverage in a room.

I know. I don't think the spot we were placing the subs in was the best for maximizing low end and impact either, but you work with what you've got and I sort of needed to be close to the equipment racks up front in case a "dive" was needed. Yes ...There were a few of those, since the remote kept wandering around. Oh well. It did help me better hear when a sub had started to be overdriven.

I'll try to get my listening summary up in a few hours.
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I know. I don't think the spot we were placing the subs in was the best for maximizing low end and impact either, but you work with what you've got and I sort of needed to be close to the equipment racks up front in case a "dive" was needed. Yes ...There were a few of those, since the remote kept wandering around. Oh well. It did help me better hear when a sub had started to be overdriven.

I'll try to get my listening summary up in a few hours.

With measurements?
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post #569 of 781 Old 04-20-2009, 01:22 PM
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Sounds like you guys had a good time. Thanks for the impressions. I would have liked all the subs to be level matched, as differences in output of only a couple dbs can lead to large percieved sound quality differences - but I completely understand how hard it is to try and fit in everything in a day of testing.

I wasn't there, but hopefully it was noticed by most attendees that before going bonkers in the subwoofer department, one must ensure their speakers are up to the task as well. Speakers getting harsh and distorted as the volume increases is more offensive than a subwoofer running out of gas.
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post #570 of 781 Old 04-20-2009, 03:15 PM
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Sounds like a blast.

It is tough to do perfect comparisons in these types of events. I tend to think the best value of them is getting together with other audio nerds and getting a chance to listen to a range of goodies. Better and worse often depends so much on the implementation that you have to take the results with a grain of salt.

I'm glad the Shiva was popular. I'm surprised you hit mechanical limits with only the 500W BASH amp. It might have been clipping rather than hitting the suspension limits. The Shiva takes a pretty good beating. We designed it so that the suspension limits you, making noise before the thing beats itself to death. That gives you a chance to turn things down if you overdrive it. I've yet to get one back that has been mechanically beat to death. I have had a couple people smoke coils (including me testing a unit with sine waves).

The next update gets a slightly larger coil, a little more BL so that we can squeeze it in slightly smaller boxes but the price will go up a little too (about $15).

Also I'd like to point out, that the Shiva is our little driver. Comparing it to a driver like the Maelstrom (12" vs. 18") is sort of out of place. The 18" driver walks all over it with ease and it should, since it has 2.4 times the cone area and cost nearly twice as much. If you build a Maelstrom with a pair of PR-18s, and compare it to the ported 6.35 cubic foot design, it is pretty astounding the difference in output. The Maelstrom builds are just in another league.

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