Ian's AV15H pr'd build - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 95 Old 03-12-2009, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been wanting to build my own DIY sub for a while now and think I'm jumping on the bandwagon and building an AV15H with passive radiators (see warped's WI sub shootout).

I will be building a 24"cube with the inside layer 3/4" mdf and the outer layer baltic birch. I plan on staining the birch to a dark color or maybe even wrapping it in copper. For the top I have a leftover piece of black and brown granite that I can cut to fit on top.

I will be using this 50% HT, 25% music, 25% video games. I am thinking of going with AV15H (John implied in warped's thread that the H was better than the X for HT). I will use the PR18-2100 gram for the radiators. John said this should result in a tuning to 16hz. I will be powering this with the ep2500 (yet to buy so I am open to suggestions).

I see on the aespeakers.com website, that the TD15H is also available but it costs 60 dollars more. Is this speaker worth the extra money or is it not even appropriate for my application?

I will be picking up a sheet of MDF to get started this Saturday. Does anyone know the size cutouts needed for the AV15 and the PR18s. I will probably be building the box before I order the speakers, unless I should order now due to limited availability, backordering, etc.

This is my first build so any input would be appreciated
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post #2 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 02:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I am trying to put together a budget and checklist of things I will need for this thread. Here's what I got.

HD
1 sheet 3/4 mdf - 33
1 sheet 3/4 birch ply - 45
wood glue - 2
primer and paint - ?
stain - ?
diamond blade to cut granite - ?
Total - 100ish

aespeakers.com
av15-h - 250
2 PR18-2100 - 260
shipping - ?
Total - 550ish

Parts Express
3 - Cast Frame 1/4"-20 Speaker Mounting Kit - 8.85
Dayton DSS4-BC Black Chrome Speaker Spike Set 4 Pcs. - 21
Dayton SBPP-BK Binding Post Plate Black Anodized - 9.45
Dayton BPP-G Premium Binding Post Pair Gold - 15.82
Shipping 10.75
Total - 65.87

Monoprice
Premier Series XLR Female to RCA Male 16AWG Cable - Gold Plated - 10ft - 9
12AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire Cable - 50ft - 12
1 PAIR OF High-Quality Copper Speaker Banana Plugs - 2
tax and shipping - 10
Total - 34.60

ebay
ep2500 - 300

Grand Total - 1050ish

Ouch that came out to be a bit more than I thought it would. If anyone has any advice for getting some of that down, I would consider suggestions. Also, am I missing anything that I am going to need?
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post #3 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Lop_posse View Post

Ouch that came out to be a bit more than I thought it would. If anyone has any advice for getting some of that down, I would consider suggestions. Also, am I missing anything that I am going to need?

Well... the easiest way is to skip the PR's and just do a ported enclosure. Slot port would be cheapest. That should save you a good $250. Your box may end up a little bigger though.
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post #4 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 07:48 AM
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I see on the aespeakers.com website, that the TD15H is also available but it costs 60 dollars more. Is this speaker worth the extra money or is it not even appropriate for my application?

its not appropriate for this!

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post #5 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 07:49 AM
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ebay
ep2500 - 300

You could maybe go with the EP1500 because the AV15 may not need a ton of power?

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post #6 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Parts Express
3 - Cast Frame 1/4"-20 Speaker Mounting Kit - 8.85
Dayton DSS4-BC Black Chrome Speaker Spike Set 4 Pcs. - 21
Dayton SBPP-BK Binding Post Plate Black Anodized - 9.45
Dayton BPP-G Premium Binding Post Pair Gold - 15.82
Shipping 10.75
Total - 65.87

Do you reall need any of this? If you are cutting costs, you could do without this stuff?

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post #7 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Well... the easiest way is to skip the PR's and just do a ported enclosure. Slot port would be cheapest. That should save you a good $250. Your box may end up a little bigger though.

I'm just curious. How much larger would a ported enclosure need to be compared to this passive radiator one? I wouldn't think it would need to be much larger overall. The PR's do eat into a lot of real estate inside the box making the enclosure larger by themselves.
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post #8 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 09:21 AM
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The PR's do eat into a lot of real estate inside the box making the enclosure larger by themselves.

The AV15H build that John did for Warp and others was a 2 cuft build and it had serious performance even down low!

So I guess its pretty crowded in there.

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post #9 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

I'm just curious. How much larger would a ported enclosure need to be compared to this passive radiator one? I wouldn't think it would need to be much larger overall. The PR's do eat into a lot of real estate inside the box making the enclosure larger by themselves.

PRs do not eat "a lot" of volume inside the box... at least compared to ports, especially slot ports..

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

The AV15H build that John did for Warp and others was a 2 cuft build and it had serious performance even down low!

So I guess its pretty crowded in there.

Do you happen to have a link to a thread? Thanks.
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post #10 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 10:22 AM
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You will need to add the displacement of the port to the box and also perhaps increase the over all volume a little to keep the port length down.

The AV15X dual PR that John had at the GTG was a 6 cubic foot net enclosure. 24"x24"x24".
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post #11 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lop_posse View Post

Parts Express
3 - Cast Frame 1/4"-20 Speaker Mounting Kit - 8.85
Dayton DSS4-BC Black Chrome Speaker Spike Set 4 Pcs. - 21
Dayton SBPP-BK Binding Post Plate Black Anodized - 9.45
Dayton BPP-G Premium Binding Post Pair Gold - 15.82
Shipping 10.75
Total - 65.87

I am not sure that 1/4"-20 screws will fit. On my SDX-15 they were too big but for the 18" PR's they are right. I used 10-24 hex head screws and t-nuts on my SDX-15. I vote that you keep the PR design. I have a similar design and I love it, I also think that PR's look better than ports.
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post #12 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input everybody. I definitely want to stay with the pr design, the smaller enclosure has higher waf and I am interested in trying it.

I like the idea of maybe going with the ep1500. My only reason for the 2500 was the ability to add another sub down the line. I haven't researched yet how much I would save with that switch.

I know I am spending more on hardware from parts express than I need to. I had a cheaper setup also in my cart and the wife leaned toward the "prettier hardware".

I am trying to model my build on winisd but can't find the ae speakers on the list and when I manually enter the specs it says may parameters don't agree. I may not even need to model it but I am adding some 3/4 to the back and bottom so my inside area is 22.5x22.5x22.5 not counting bracing and speakers. I am not sure how different this is from John's
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post #13 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 01:40 PM
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Lop,

I have been using UniBox for my modeling and it works great. I have an older Blueprint 1503 driver that I plan on rebuilding, it's in a sono tube now. I went back and forth with box size and PRs and ended up settling on two 1400 gram 15 PRs in a 144L enclosure. This gave me a pretty flat response down to 16hz with an output of 113db. It seemed the highest output at the lowest tuning I could get with this driver and amp was only a 1-2dbs (@16hz) gain over the above mentioned setup. That was going with a 270L enclosure and 2 2100 18 PRs. The larger enclosure with the larger and heavier PRs also gave me a dip in output around 20hz so by the time you try and flatten out the responce with EQ there may not be much gain left with the larger enclosure. With the 144L enclosure, I can get the outside box size to around 20 x 20 x 45. The enclosure can be much shorter but I'm going to break a few rules and mount both PR's on the front face and have the driver down fire. This layout fits my needs best. I am going to build a heavy box, hopefully this will offset most of the vibration and keep the sub from walking.
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post #14 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 04:07 PM
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Both PR's on the same face... you are talking about 2.8 KG's of mass moving back and forth 20 times a second, over 2" P-P. Not a good plan.

That's 6 pounds of mass moving back and forth. If you have a 200 pound slab of rock on top of the box, you might get away with it, without rocking.

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
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post #15 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 04:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

Both PR's on the same face... you are talking about 2.8 KG's of mass moving back and forth 20 times a second, over 2" P-P. Not a good plan.

That's 6 pounds of mass moving back and forth. If you have a 200 pound slab of rock on top of the box, you might get away with it, without rocking.

Just picture someone hitting your sub with a 6 pound sledge hammer, scooting it across the floor.
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post #16 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lop_posse View Post

I've been wanting to build my own DIY sub for a while now and think I'm jumping on the bandwagon and building an AV15H with passive radiators (see warped's WI sub shootout).



HEY --- Who you calling warped?
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post #17 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 04:50 PM
 
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HEY --- Who you calling warped?

I think anybody on the DIY sub threads are a little bit warped.
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post #18 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 05:07 PM
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Back to the original question, skip the "oxygen free" jazz. Just get some cheap 10 or 11 Gauge zip cord. Gold plated stuff looks great, buy if if you want the bling. It does nothing for sound. Save $5 or so total.
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post #19 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 05:52 PM
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I've got two of the "preferred" boxes (24" cubes) and while they are big, they are are not monstrous. I'm very happy with the performance of John's drivers/PR's being driven by the big keiga plate amp

JP
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post #20 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post

Back to the original question, skip the "oxygen free" jazz. Just get some cheap 10 or 11 Gauge zip cord. Gold plated stuff looks great, buy if if you want the bling. It does nothing for sound. Save $5 or so total.

I disagree, I bought some cheap speaker wire with the clear casing, after a couple of years it started to turn green. That couldn't have been good for the conductivity of the wire. You don't have to buy high end stuff, just make sure it's oxygen free. For the extra $5, well worth it.
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post #21 of 95 Old 03-13-2009, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

Both PR's on the same face... you are talking about 2.8 KG's of mass moving back and forth 20 times a second, over 2" P-P. Not a good plan.

That's 6 pounds of mass moving back and forth. If you have a 200 pound slab of rock on top of the box, you might get away with it, without rocking.

I plan on building it out of 1-1/2 laminated plank, the heavy stuff. I estimate the sub should weigh in at around 200+ pounds with the driver installed. I also say someone build a Mal-X with two 18" PR's, althought I think is PR's were at a 20 degree angle from the face.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=#post15953250
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post #22 of 95 Old 03-14-2009, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

I'm just curious. How much larger would a ported enclosure need to be compared to this passive radiator one? I wouldn't think it would need to be much larger overall. The PR's do eat into a lot of real estate inside the box making the enclosure larger by themselves.

The difficulty is in making the port large enough so you don't run into issues with vent noise and compression. Ideally you want to keep vent velocity to lower than 10m/s at maximum input power. In the case of the 24" external cube you have about 5cf total internal volume. To keep vent velocity low enough with 1000W input you'd need a 10" diameter vent that would be 131" long to match the tuning of the PR's. This adds 6.48 cubic foot of volume to the enclosure.

The PR's themselves take up virtually no box volume. They are intentionally made with flat MDF discs for the diaphragm so the "cone" takes up no volume at all. All you have taking up volume is the aluminum frame. This takes up less than .02 cubic feet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

Both PR's on the same face... you are talking about 2.8 KG's of mass moving back and forth 20 times a second, over 2" P-P. Not a good plan.

That's 6 pounds of mass moving back and forth. If you have a 200 pound slab of rock on top of the box, you might get away with it, without rocking.

Before having 18" PR's we were stuck with doing 3 of the 15" PR's. This meant putting one on the back with nothing opposing it. The cabinet I sent to Tom Nousaine for testing had serious output, but if put on shag carpet the extra PR on back with 2100G would rock the cabinet front to back a lot. You could physically see it moving 1/2" back and forth with the PR's at full travel. The whole thing weighed about 160lbs. PR's directly opposing on the sides completely eliminates this issue.

The only time we do PR's on the same face with the driver is in car applications where there isn't really any other option for placement. Then we suggest rigidly mounting the box to the vehicle. This does however cause a lot of extra rattling but it also allows you to feel the bass much more.

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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You could maybe go with the EP1500 because the AV15 may not need a ton of power?

I'd highly recommend against any of the Behringer amps for powering an AV15. While they are 4ohm nominal drivers, the AVH has a DCR of 2.7 ohm and the AVX has a DCR of 3.2ohm. Especially the AVH DCR is quite low for a 4ohm nominal driver which is great for increased sensitivity at 2.83V, but not good when amplifiers have trouble with stability into low impedances.

The Behringers do not like 4ohm bridged loads at all. We used the EP2500's in the Five Six Club install powering 4 lab subs that were thrown in "free" with the line arrays. In short time checking the EP2500's were fine. However, after an hour of use the first night, 2 of the 4 amps became extremely unstable and sent a ton of DC out to the woofers. Four of the eight woofers didn't make it past the first hour the club was open. The following day we swapped out the EP2500's for QSC PLX 3402's (more power) and there was never an issue again for over a year that the club was open.

While the EP2500's are cheap, they just are not reliable. Something like a Crown XTi1000 or Xti2000 should be a little better. The KGND52100 from madisound is also a very solid amp.

John

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post #23 of 95 Old 03-14-2009, 09:20 AM
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Well that's a bummer for me than since I just put in a EP2500 to replace my XTi1000 for sub duty. No AV's for me I guess.
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post #24 of 95 Old 03-14-2009, 09:32 AM
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I would sure think that an EP2500 would be OK for light duty in home usage with that driver. In clubs they are turned up to their max output for hours on end. You could always just use one channel as well.
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post #25 of 95 Old 03-14-2009, 09:51 AM
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I guess that means no AV15H's for me either... Although, I do plan to run them in stereo. How will the Behringer EP2500 handle dual AV15H's in stereo?

I don't feel like replacing my amp, so...

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post #26 of 95 Old 03-14-2009, 11:05 AM
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Well I also have the sub on when listening to music and it gets cranked pretty hard (though I am sure not a loud as a club). I am sure not buying another amp at this time or the foreseeable future since I just got the EP in the past few months. Maybe I will just look for another TC 2K 15 which works very well with the EP.

I will still be interested in how the OP's build turns out and his impressions of it.
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post #27 of 95 Old 03-14-2009, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exojam View Post

Well that's a bummer for me than since I just put in a EP2500 to replace my XTi1000 for sub duty. No AV's for me I guess.

The Re of the TC2k is 3.19 ohm according to the archived TC page. If you have no problems with it running off the EP2500, then you should be fine with the AVX at least.

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I guess that means no AV15H's for me either... Although, I do plan to run them in stereo. How will the Behringer EP2500 handle dual AV15H's in stereo?

I don't feel like replacing my amp, so...

If you plan to run one off of each channel you will be fine. It seems the issue is just with 4ohm bridged application in drivers that border along the low level for a 4ohm nominal driver.

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post #28 of 95 Old 03-14-2009, 11:46 AM
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So far I am having no problems with my EP2500's but I'm pretty confident that down the line if or when I switch over to LMS's I'll be changing my amps out down the road.

I am particularly not happy with the shoddy connectors... I have to constantly check the input to make sure the amp is getting signal...
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post #29 of 95 Old 03-14-2009, 12:48 PM
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Well, when you do upgrade your amps, warp, I'll take at least one off your hands.

Thanks for the info, John. I too am running a TC2000 15" right now in bridged mono and have zero issues, so I should be fine.

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post #30 of 95 Old 03-14-2009, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info John,

Part of what drew me to your product was your support and info you give to the diy community. I will probably go with the ep2500 still and just not bridge it. I found out last night that my brother-in-law is a Behringer dealer so I can get one for cost or maybe even a trade for my old BIC H100.

I wanted to start building my box today, but I still don't know the cutout dimensions for the PR18's (edit specs delivered thanks 18 3/16" and 16 11/16"). I found in the ae forums that the AV15's specs are 15.625" and 14.00".

I have put together a list of cuts for my box that yields 5.3 cubic feet not counting the displacement of the driver and pr's. It is a 24" cube with basically a full box inner shell and a second layer around that. The top of the outside will be the black and brown granite I have laying around.

Outer Box
Front - 24"x24" Cutout size - 15.75"
Top - 23.25"x24"
Bottom - 23.25"x24"
Side - 23.25"x22.5" Cutout size - 18.75"
Side - 23.25"x22.5" Cutout size - 18.75"
Back - 22.5"x22.5"

Inner Box
Front - 22.5"x22.5" Cutout size - 14.125"
Top - 21.75"x22.5"
Bottom - 21.75"x22.5"
Side - 21.75"x21" Cutout size - 16.75"
Side - 21.75"x21" Cutout size - 16.75"
Back - 21"x21"
Single vertical brace - .75"x4"x21"
Volume - 5.32 cubic feet

I hope the volume is big enough for my setup, if needed I can gain some by omitting the inner bottom and back to make it 5.7 cubic feet not counting drivers. I included the bottom for structure (this baby will probably weigh 250 lbs) and the back recess my binding posts in a little 3"x3" cutout.

I have been working on a sketchup model but am not quite done yet. I will also be including pictures of the build as I actually get started. I hope to include enough details in this build that someone could recreate what I did if they like it.
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