Build something comparable to SVS PB13-Ultra? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 99 Old 04-13-2009, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been looking at upgrading my sub, currently an old Velodyne CT-120 that is barely decent in my theater room. The room is pretty large: 20' L x 14' W x 19' H and to make it worse, it opens up on the right side to a dining room/kitchen, on the back to the entry way/stairwell and on top to a loft which leads to the upstairs hallway, bedrooms, and connects to the stairwell.

I was looking at the SVS PB13-Ultra (~$1500) as something commercially produced that was at the very outer limits of reason in terms of budget but would like to keep it under $1000. Back in college, I built a couple of subs with a friend that were decent (for the time and budget) using rudimentary tools and now I have friends with garage woodshops, etc. so I think I could do better.

Anybody have any recommendation for drivers, amps, and designs that could come close to the PB13-Ultra in terms of low-freq extension, size, suitability for both movies/music? I don't think I need that much SPL given the neighbors and family and size of the room. I also have a Behringer DSP1124 that I got meaning to add to my current system but never got around to.

thanks for any suggestions...
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post #2 of 99 Old 04-13-2009, 02:46 PM
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This is a good questions. I also would like to know what diy subs are able to compare to and surpass the svs pb13 ultra.

As far as recommendations for your budget of $1000 im sure you will be pointed towards a mal-x or similar sub and an ep2500. That should run you around $680 plus shipping. Then the materials for your box. You should come in slightly under your budget with enough left to buy an EQ. Or you could build some bass traps. Or buy a cheap hooker whatever you do with the savings is your choice lol. Now i cannot say how that compare's to the SVS sub but i would like to think it does better.

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post #3 of 99 Old 04-13-2009, 02:48 PM
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a mal-x and a ep2500 will beat a pb13-ultra with ease.

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post #4 of 99 Old 04-13-2009, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

a mal-x and a ep2500 will beat a pb13-ultra with ease.

Ok what about a Shiva-x? I read it should be comparable to the svs but thats on paper what about real world.

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post #5 of 99 Old 04-13-2009, 04:46 PM
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I couldn't say about the shiva-x but I've personally tested the pb13 ultra against my mach 5 18 and the mach 5 destroyed it in anything under 36hz and the mal-x is a more potent driver than my mach's are. Above 35hz the pb13 was around 1-2 steady db's higher until our cutoff at 50hz but my boxes are tuned lower than the pb13 though.
I'd think in a the right box the shiva-x would be pretty comparable but I'm not stating that as a fact because I've only heard one in a small sealed box but it was under powered. Still sounded pretty good though.

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post #6 of 99 Old 04-13-2009, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

I couldn't say about the shiva-x but I've personally tested the pb13 ultra against my mach 5 18 and the mach 5 destroyed it in anything under 36hz

Hi, which Mach 5 18" did you use? IXL 18.4?

I think enclosure size/tuning matters a lot too (Both are pretty dependent on each other). If the driver can take more power then that's an added bonus of course.

But don't forget the PB13U already has the veneer "factored" in. If not one could use the PC13U's price (with smaller enclosure)
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post #7 of 99 Old 04-13-2009, 05:30 PM
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Acoustic Elegance AV15 in a PR design with 2 18" PR's. 500 or 1kw for power.
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post #8 of 99 Old 04-13-2009, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

Acoustic Elegance AV15 in a PR design with 2 18" PR's. 500 or 1kw for power.

+1

4 or 5 cuft box would be very sweet, no need to worry about power issues with the high sensitivity of the AV15.

Once I get my NHTs built and John actually returns a PM or an email then Im buying one (John must not like me and my money though )

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post #9 of 99 Old 04-13-2009, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

Acoustic Elegance AV15 in a PR design with 2 18" PR's. 500 or 1kw for power.

Any explanations on the difference between the AV15-X and -H? I looked at the spec differences but can somebody interpret that into what that would mean for the enclosure design in real life? Are there any enclosure designs out there that would be a good starting point?

Code:
AV15-X - 4 ohm          AV15-H - 4 ohm
Fs: 24Hz                        Fs: 22Hz
Qms: 4.1                                Qms: 4.86
Vas: 197L                               Vas: 197L
Cms: .22mm/N                    Cms: .22mm/N
Mms: 200g                               Mms: 235g
Rms: 7.4kg/s                    Rms: 6.7kg/s
Xmax: 23mm                      Xmax: 23mm
Sd: 794sqcm                     Sd: 794sqcm
Qes: .39                        Qes: .29
Re: 3.2                         Re: 2.7
Le: .196mH                              Le: .28mH
Z: 4ohm                         Z: 4ohm
Bl: 15.6Tm                              Bl: 17.6Tm
Pe: 1000W                               Pe: 1000W
Qts: .36                                Qts: .27
1W SPL: 90.4dB                  1W SPL: 90.7dB 
2.83V: 94.3dB                   2.83V: 95.5dB
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post #10 of 99 Old 04-13-2009, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2100 View Post

Hi, which Mach 5 18" did you use? IXL 18.4?

I think enclosure size/tuning matters a lot too (Both are pretty dependent on each other). If the driver can take more power then that's an added bonus of course.

But don't forget the PB13U already has the veneer "factored" in. If not one could use the PC13U's price (with smaller enclosure)


I used the IXL 18.2.2

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post #11 of 99 Old 04-13-2009, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by collin View Post

Any explanations on the difference between the AV15-X and -H? I looked at the spec differences but can somebody interpret that into what that would mean for the enclosure design in real life? Are there any enclosure designs out there that would be a good starting point?

I'm going through the same type of questions... I have yet to correlate the specifications with how that impacts box size and shape, but it's pretty quick and easy to drop the specs in Unibox or WinISD and check out the impact to the box size requirements and response graphs.
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post #12 of 99 Old 04-13-2009, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

a mal-x and a ep2500 will beat a pb13-ultra with ease.

The PB13-Ultra's listed dimensions are approx. 27” D x 20.5 " W x 22" H, which multiply out to about 7 cu. ft, but of course the inner volume will be smaller due to the wall thickness and bracing and the driver and amp.

How big would a Mal-X enclosure be approximately?
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post #13 of 99 Old 04-13-2009, 11:18 PM
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Can anyone else give a comparison of the shiva-x to the svs? The box would be slightly smaller and total cost around 1/3 of the svs. But if its not a contender it really doesnt matter in this case i guess. But it still would be nice to know how it compares to one of the most popular sub's out there.

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post #14 of 99 Old 04-14-2009, 12:16 AM
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I have a build thread going right now for an AV15-H with 2 18 inch PR's in a 24 inch cube. My drivers will be coming in via UPS tomorrow

As I understand it the AV15-X with 1600 gram PRs is more suited for music and the AV15-H with 2100 gram PR's is more suited for HT. Both will excel at both but you will get deeper extension below 20 Hz with the AV15-H.
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post #15 of 99 Old 04-14-2009, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by collin View Post

Any explanations on the difference between the AV15-X and -H? I looked at the spec differences but can somebody interpret that into what that would mean for the enclosure design in real life? Are there any enclosure designs out there that would be a good starting point?

Code:
AV15-X - 4 ohm          AV15-H - 4 ohm
Fs: 24Hz                        Fs: 22Hz
Qms: 4.1                                Qms: 4.86
Vas: 197L                               Vas: 197L
Cms: .22mm/N                    Cms: .22mm/N
Mms: 200g                               Mms: 235g
Rms: 7.4kg/s                    Rms: 6.7kg/s
Xmax: 23mm                      Xmax: 23mm
Sd: 794sqcm                     Sd: 794sqcm
Qes: .39                        Qes: .29
Re: 3.2                         Re: 2.7
Le: .196mH                              Le: .28mH
Z: 4ohm                         Z: 4ohm
Bl: 15.6Tm                              Bl: 17.6Tm
Pe: 1000W                               Pe: 1000W
Qts: .36                                Qts: .27
1W SPL: 90.4dB                  1W SPL: 90.7dB 
2.83V: 94.3dB                   2.83V: 95.5dB



looks like the 'H' model has a lower gauge wire, John can correct me if im wrong. But more BL, a tad more moving mass, higher Le, lower Dcr all indicate a larger L cross section.

If you're a bit better with EQ, go for the H, if you want a simpler alignment, go for the X.

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post #16 of 99 Old 04-14-2009, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by collin View Post

Any explanations on the difference between the AV15-X and -H? I looked at the spec differences but can somebody interpret that into what that would mean for the enclosure design in real life? Are there any enclosure designs out there that would be a good starting point?

Code:
AV15-X - 4 ohm          AV15-H - 4 ohm
Fs: 24Hz                        Fs: 22Hz
Qms: 4.1                                Qms: 4.86
Vas: 197L                               Vas: 197L
Cms: .22mm/N                    Cms: .22mm/N
Mms: 200g                               Mms: 235g
Rms: 7.4kg/s                    Rms: 6.7kg/s
Xmax: 23mm                      Xmax: 23mm
Sd: 794sqcm                     Sd: 794sqcm
Qes: .39                        Qes: .29
Re: 3.2                         Re: 2.7
Le: .196mH                              Le: .28mH
Z: 4ohm                         Z: 4ohm
Bl: 15.6Tm                              Bl: 17.6Tm
Pe: 1000W                               Pe: 1000W
Qts: .36                                Qts: .27
1W SPL: 90.4dB                  1W SPL: 90.7dB 
2.83V: 94.3dB                   2.83V: 95.5dB


Collin,

Check this thread out. Starting at post #252. Look for John E. Janowitz name from Acoustic Elegance.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ht=av15&page=9
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post #17 of 99 Old 04-14-2009, 05:32 AM
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The DIY sub I built with a eighteen sound 21lw1400 driver can beat the pb-13 ultra above 20Hz due to tuning I used on the 21, I did a comparison with both. The 21 inch can play louder than the pb-13U before showing signs of stress.The 21lw1400 could go louder, but is being limited by the 400w amp. At normal listening levels I find it hard to distinguish them and even above normal listening levels and possibly any volume level I would sit down and try and enjoy something. With bass boost at +6db and volume knob way up is when the difference is demonstrated between the two.

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post #18 of 99 Old 04-14-2009, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

+1

4 or 5 cuft box would be very sweet, no need to worry about power issues with the high sensitivity of the AV15.

Once I get my NHTs built and John actually returns a PM or an email then Im buying one (John must not like me and my money though )

It seems the best way to communicate right now is on the AE website, as Simon5 is good at following up on questions and such. I just got my AV15H yesterday after a 5 week wait, John is really busy right now.
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post #19 of 99 Old 04-14-2009, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

+1

4 or 5 cuft box would be very sweet, no need to worry about power issues with the high sensitivity of the AV15.

Once I get my NHTs built and John actually returns a PM or an email then Im buying one (John must not like me and my money though )

I never did get an e-mail response. That always causes me to remove a company from consideration. If you don't want to communicate via e-mail, remove the address from your website and tell people how to reach you most efficiently. One shouldn't have to work hard to order a product.
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post #20 of 99 Old 04-14-2009, 08:23 AM
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The hard work is worth it at times, and AE is one of those times.

Really though, post on the forums Simon is great about replying quickly.
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post #21 of 99 Old 04-14-2009, 08:24 AM
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Honestly, guys John is busy, it took a month or thereabouts to get a return call, although he did return my call eventually. Between all the forum emails, PM's, voice mail etc... it can become overwhelming, especially when you are running a one man show basically.

I did order and receive drivers from him, and am glad I waited. I can understand that if you don't receive any communication it seems like he is not interested.

All of his product is built to order really, so there is no stock sitting on shelves, just racks of parts, coils, frames, boxes of magnets, t-yokes and shorting rings etc... they are put together as they are ordered.

If I was in a hurry for those 12" drivers, I would have gone elsewhere for sure. Patience can pay off, but it would depend on the person waiting.

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post #22 of 99 Old 04-14-2009, 08:28 AM
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No question John is busy, I ALREADY know that but I will still complain

I would hope that my spend almost $2K already would put me on a priority customer list,
Where is my gold membership!!

I guess DIY $2K is good but pro audio/big company $2K is meaningless

Other then that, no one needs to post excuses for companies...if they are that busy HIGHER MORE PEOPLE!!!! The economy needs it!

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post #23 of 99 Old 04-14-2009, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

No question John is busy, I ALREADY know that but I will still complain

I would hope that my spend almost $2K already would put me on a priority customer list,
Where is my gold membership!!

I guess DIY $2K is good but pro audio/big company $2K is meaningless

Other then that, no one needs to post excuses for companies...if they are that busy HIGHER MORE PEOPLE!!!! The economy needs it!

I'm gonna drive to WI and sit outside the office with a "will work 4 subs" sign
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post #24 of 99 Old 04-14-2009, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhgilmer View Post

I'm gonna drive to WI and sit outside the office with a "will work 4 subs" sign

I guess thats what we are working for in the end anyways right? Aside from keeping a roof over the family and food on the table.

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post #25 of 99 Old 04-14-2009, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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actually, that AV15 + 2x18" PR in a 24" cube design looks pretty good for my needs.



Has John or anybody ever posted more detailed plans for this box? Like a sketchup or cut sheet plan? Something like the Easy Button end table thread would help me out greatly.

How do you do the beveled corners like that?
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post #26 of 99 Old 04-15-2009, 09:24 AM
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For details on an AV15-H with 18"PRs in a 24" box see my build thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1129054
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post #27 of 99 Old 04-15-2009, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
actually, that AV15 + 2x18" PR in a 24" cube design looks pretty good for my needs.

Yes, 2'x2'x2', its a 8 cuft box, well around 6.5 internal volume according to boxnotes.exe

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post #28 of 99 Old 04-15-2009, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

Honestly, guys John is busy, it took a month or thereabouts to get a return call, although he did return my call eventually. Between all the forum emails, PM's, voice mail etc... it can become overwhelming, especially when you are running a one man show basically.

I did order and receive drivers from him, and am glad I waited. I can understand that if you don't receive any communication it seems like he is not interested.

All of his product is built to order really, so there is no stock sitting on shelves, just racks of parts, coils, frames, boxes of magnets, t-yokes and shorting rings etc... they are put together as they are ordered.

If I was in a hurry for those 12" drivers, I would have gone elsewhere for sure. Patience can pay off, but it would depend on the person waiting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

No question John is busy, I ALREADY know that but I will still complain

I would hope that my spend almost $2K already would put me on a priority customer list,
Where is my gold membership!!

I guess DIY $2K is good but pro audio/big company $2K is meaningless

Other then that, no one needs to post excuses for companies...if they are that busy HIGHER MORE PEOPLE!!!! The economy needs it!

FYI, John has been hiring guys on, and myself and a few other small OEM's and the like have been keeping him quite busy, so some of the blame lies here.

What most don't consider with most small businesses working in niche markets is how much time and money might have been burned in getting to a point of delivering products. If you're doing something you're passionate about, there is a strong desire to offer a great deal, and often not charge as much as they should (been there, done that! ). I keep telling John he needs to charge a bit more, and I would be that as resources stabilize that's exactly what will happen to allow the responsiveness many are after.

I was at AE Speakers recently and the production tables were full of drivers... 10s, 12s and 15s being built up for customers. I know John is backed up a good deal, and I'd side with him to first make sure those customers are delivered and taken care of before spending tons of time answering detailed questions in e-mails. It sucks to have to do, but I have to regularly do it in my own business as well. I know it wasn't all that long ago that John (myself as well) was dealing with the opposite problem. Fortunately John's been around for a long time, and while the extremes can be painful, pushing the average steadily higher is usually the right way to proceed rather than over-reacting to extremes.

Keep buggin' him, he's making some great stuff.

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post #29 of 99 Old 04-15-2009, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
I keep telling John he needs to charge a bit more

Stop telling him that!!!

Quote:
Keep buggin' him, he's making some great stuff.

You got that right!! I premote/support where I can. Just blowing off steam about being ignored

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post #30 of 99 Old 04-15-2009, 10:29 AM
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This was kind of my goal and here is my build thread. It is based on the Shiva X-12 with cost containment in mind. Originally I was going to build a 4.2 cubic ft box but got carried away. I wanted to optimize for the lows so went with the 6.3 cubic ft.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1122760&page=1

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