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post #1 of 88 Old 04-17-2009, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Over the years, I have helped my father-in-law with setting up PA speakers/amps/mixers etc, several times. When fine-tuning the sound, it was always fun when the drum player played. Thub thub thub! Every drum beat just "hit you" in the chest. Not just while practicing, but also live.

I always wanted this "hit in the chest" in my own home-theater / stereo. And because of this I pulled the trigger on a HSU MBM-12 some years ago, which I personally think does a fine job at it. Unfortunately, I craved for more - and better bass!

I've read several threads about MID BASS, where several drivers such as the TD-series from AE Speakers, JBL, B&C etc. LTD02 recommended that I got myself a driver such as the JBL 2226H or something similar for my use. So I just took a google search and I saw there was a guy selling 2 of those drivers locally - so I just took the plunge and ordered them.


Today they arrived:


Say cheese!



Since I don't know how to use software to model drivers, I sent some PMs to LTD02 about this driver, and he recommended that I'd build a box which is around 3 cu. ft. (85 liter) tuned to 45hz using two ports each having a diameter of 3 in. (7.6 cm) and length of 4 in. (10.2 cm). And that is what I'll do. Actually - variables might change. I'll just ask here then, and hope someone can help me out.

Me and a friend actually bought one driver each - but both cabinets/constructions will be identical. The reason we did this, is because we want to see what one driver will do with the sound, and what two will. If we fall in love with two drivers - we will both get one more JBL 2226H each.

Okey! So - we will build 2 of these and experiement using one, then two. It could also be interesting using Dr. Geddes approach - to get optimal bass response in all over the room.


- I plan to use a Behringer EP2500 to power the 2x JBLs
- For crossovers I got a Behringer DCX 2496
- For measurements, I will use REW


I will post more when we start building the enclosures.. Shouldn't take too much time, since both me and my friend wants to try these puppies out asap
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post #2 of 88 Old 04-17-2009, 01:48 PM
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glad to see your build thread.

here is the 2226h in a 3 cu ft tuned to 45hz with no crossover; then with a second order high pass at 35hz and a fourth order low pass at 150hz. power is set at 450 watts (or the equivalent voltage).




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post #3 of 88 Old 04-19-2009, 07:05 PM
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I have been modeling 4th order bandpass boxes recently, and noticed that that driver models pretty nicely; flat from 60-125 Hz when tuned to 80 Hz with rear chamber of 90 l (~3.2 ft^3) and front chamber of 25 l (~0.9 ft^3). Max SPL is ~118 at 450 W (a highpass filter might be desirable to limit cone excursion though).

-Doug
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post #4 of 88 Old 04-24-2009, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Been working on the cabinet the last couple of days..

I had to increase the length a bit as you see, because I had to re-cut every plate I made:



In order to not make it a "weak spot" I did this;


And here is a little bracing (will add more):




Regarding the ports.. is it okay I mount them like this?





When finishing the enclosure I will test drive the MBM..

What remains then is the hard part - trying to make the MBM look decent, hehe
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post #5 of 88 Old 04-24-2009, 09:16 PM
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front mounted ports are typically used if placement against a wall is preferred.

rear ports have the advantage that they reduce the amount of higher frequency sound that may 'leak' through the ports.

if you mount them on the back, just make sure that you allow at least about 4-5" between the enclosure and the wall.

you could also mount the two ports vertically if you like that look more as in the jbl al6115.



http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/suppor...pe=3&docid=669

it uses a 2226 driver and ~50hz tuning. those appear to be 4" ports too.
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post #6 of 88 Old 04-24-2009, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSmith View Post

I have been modeling 4th order bandpass boxes recently, and noticed that that driver models pretty nicely; flat from 60-125 Hz when tuned to 80 Hz with rear chamber of 90 l (~3.2 ft^3) and front chamber of 25 l (~0.9 ft^3). Max SPL is ~118 at 450 W (a highpass filter might be desirable to limit cone excursion though).

-Doug

yes, it does model nicely.

i suppose there is some advantage in the acoustic rolloff low pass vs. electronically low passing it and there is probably some advantage in minimizing distortion around 80hz because the driver will be moving less.

the disadvantage is that you are giving up about 4db of sound power.

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post #7 of 88 Old 04-25-2009, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

yes, it does model nicely.

i suppose there is some advantage in the acoustic rolloff low pass vs. electronically low passing it and there is probably some advantage in minimizing distortion around 80hz because the driver will be moving less.

the disadvantage is that you are giving up about 4db of sound power.

The acoustic rolloff does has some advantages terms of limiting distortion, based on what I have read. And, personally I can't imagine wanting any more than 110db or so for peaks (my 55 yr old ears have already sustained enough damage!), but I guess it's academic anyway since Myggpower's ported design is obviously well underway. I'm sure they'll will be happy with that one.

-Doug
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post #8 of 88 Old 04-26-2009, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSmith View Post

The acoustic rolloff does has some advantages terms of limiting distortion, based on what I have read. And, personally I can't imagine wanting any more than 110db or so for peaks (my 55 yr old ears have already sustained enough damage!), but I guess it's academic anyway since Myggpower's ported design is obviously well underway. I'm sure they'll will be happy with that one.

-Doug

just to put some color around your point...our ears are much less sensitive to bass than to midrange, by more than 10db. perhaps unsurprisingly, bass typically runs about 10db louder than the midrange. also, we don't perceive sound peaks as being loud. it is the average spl that causes music to sound loud. well recorded music can have 15db or more of peak to average sound power. what this all means is that if you want to listen to loud music, say 90db or so, then you need speakers that are at least 115db capable. if you want a "rock concert" in your living room, 100db average spl or more, then 120-125db capable speakers start to become desirable. everybody's wants are different. the beauty of our capitalistic, decentralized planning, free-market, economic system is that we each get to choose what is best for us and allocate our resources accordingly. although, with the way things are going...

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post #9 of 88 Old 04-26-2009, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Little update:


The ports:


Some bracing:


Some stuffing:


A little further away:


Driver on top! Waiting to be put inside the enclosure:



I just need to buy some decent screws to mount the driver with, and I will try it out soon. The enclosure is made of 3/4" MDF btw (I had some laying around, so I used that). The enclosure seems solid enough (to me), and I hope it will be good enough to get the job done.


Btw:

Instead of going with 2x ~3" ports, I went with 2x ~4" ports (Inner diameter = 10cm) which is roughly 21cm long. (they needed to be 20cm long in order to get the desired 45hz tuning). Many thanks to LTD02 who modelled this for me!
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post #10 of 88 Old 04-27-2009, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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The woofer has been mounted in the enclosure, and everything is hooked up:

A "mess" lol:



I've been recommended to use a 2nd order highpass filter at 35hz, and 4th order lowpass at 150hz - which should give me about -3dB at 50 and 150hz.

On my DCX I have set my 3 subs up like this:


Sub 1 - My DIY JBL 2226H

Left side: But 12, Frequency: 35hz [Highpass]
Right side: But 48, Frequency: 148hz [Lowpass]

Sub 2 - My DIY SS RLp18" - tuned to 23hz

Left side: But 48, Frequency: 20hz [Highpass]
Righ side: But 24, Frequency: 50hz [Lowpass]

Sub 3 - HSU MBM 12
- No filters applied as I use the built in on the HSU

The receiever has a Xover Frequency at 90hz (So im guessing no subs will play over that).


I would appreciate if someone could tell me I have everything set up correctly on the DCX 2496.



And now on to some impressions I've got so far, with the JBL MBM.

This things has some SICK punch. And I can tell you right away, I will have 2 of these, despite the fact that ONE is more than enough in my small room.



A bit off topic, but setup will soon consist of 2 x JBL MBMs (50-1X0hz), and 2x SS RLp18"s to play from 50hz and down. That should rock
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post #11 of 88 Old 04-27-2009, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myggpower View Post


And now on to some impressions I've got so far, with the JBL MBM.

This things has some SICK punch. And I can tell you right away, I will have 2 of these, despite the fact that ONE is more than enough in my small room.



A bit off topic, but setup will soon consist of 2 x JBL MBMs (50-1X0hz), and 2x SS RLp18"s to play from 50hz and down. That should rock

Sweet! Congrats! Sounds like you could really rock your house with a setup like that. I am thinking of doing something similar though I have four RLp18's that will be in sealed cabs. So do you intend on still using that Hsu after this upgrade?

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #12 of 88 Old 04-27-2009, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Sweet! Congrats! Sounds like you could really rock your house with a setup like that. I am thinking of doing something similar though I have four RLp18's that will be in sealed cabs. So do you intend on still using that Hsu after this upgrade?

I really like the RLps (Got one 18" and one 15").

I will keep the HSU until I get the 2nd JBL up and running. I currently use both - and even though I feel the JBL is better - the HSU MBM is still no slouch.


PS: Since I already know what ONE Rlp18" is capable of (although it is ported), I can only imagine how 4 will be. That should be some SERIOUS bass!! I'll be sure to check that out!
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post #13 of 88 Old 04-27-2009, 11:24 AM
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Looks like some RF3II's or RF7's there... I have RF3II's and I need more horsepower.

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
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post #14 of 88 Old 04-27-2009, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks like some RF3II's or RF7's there... I have RF3II's and I need more horsepower.

It's a crappy picture - but it's RF5s actually.

I just got the Emotiva XPA-3 for my fronts + center. Gave a new life to them.
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post #15 of 88 Old 04-27-2009, 11:36 AM
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For sure, when driving them full range on dynamic drum tracks, I was clipping a QSC PLXII 3102 rated at 550wpc from 20-20k into them...

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
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post #16 of 88 Old 04-27-2009, 09:53 PM
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i see you used the same damping strategy in your enclosure as i have ( dividing the enclosure into 2 parts, stuffing the rear part and lining the front with foam )

do you like how it worked out ?
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post #17 of 88 Old 04-28-2009, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myggpower View Post


The receiever has a Xover Frequency at 90hz (So im guessing no subs will play over that).

I would appreciate if someone could tell me I have everything set up correctly on the DCX 2496.

if the 90hz crossover is 4th order, which it probably is, you shouldn't need the 150 low pass on the jbl mbm's. however, leaving it on doesn't hurt anything either.

if you listen to home theater (not just music) at VERY high spl's or have any additional eq on it, then you might want to increase the 35hz high pass to 4th order as well. just as a precaution.

you may also want to try placing some delay on your main speakers in order to align the accoustical centers with the mbm's. this may or may not be an issue though. when they are aligned in properly with your mains, punch will be maximal. interestingly, hsu suggests placement of the mbm right behind the couch, which has much the same effect as putting a delay on the mains. 1 millisecond = 1 foot, roughly. it might be interesting to experiment.

Quote:


And now on to some impressions I've got so far, with the JBL MBM.

This thing has some SICK punch. And I can tell you right away, I will have 2 of these, despite the fact that ONE is more than enough in my small room.

A bit off topic, but setup will soon consist of 2 x JBL MBMs (50-1X0hz), and 2x SS RLp18"s to play from 50hz and down. That should rock

i'm very glad that this worked out for you.

congratulations on your build!


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post #18 of 88 Old 04-29-2009, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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vasyachkin, im quite happy with how it turned out!

LTD02, thanks for all info!

Delay: I currently have no delay on my JBL subwoofer, but I do have a delay on my 2nd MBM (which is placed nearfield), and on my SUBwoofer (which is also nearfield) - I do this via the DCX 2496. The DCX 2496 automatically gives 1ft delay when a unit is connected to it (afaik) - but since my JBL is placed BEHIND the front speakers - should the fronts then be delayed by 2 feet on my Yamaha receiver - in order to get optimal punch ?


May will be a very busy month for me, as im working on my bachelor degree, and have a lot of exams. For those interested in graphs, I will post some measurements of my fronts, fronts + 1x MBM, fronts + 2x MBM and fronts + 2x MBM + SUBwoofer.. when I have time! Might be interesting to measure from several spots in my room as well - because I feel the bass is better all over the room actually.

Not sure when I will make the 2nd (identical) JBL Midbass - but im hoping to do it soon.

The hardest part perhaps, is to make a NICE finish on the JBL midbass. I have a couple of ideas, so I hope it will turn out okey
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post #19 of 88 Old 04-29-2009, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Sweet! Congrats! Sounds like you could really rock your house with a setup like that. I am thinking of doing something similar though I have four RLp18's that will be in sealed cabs. So do you intend on still using that Hsu after this upgrade?

scott, what are you missing with your system?

given the enormity/magnitude/gigantisism of your subs, you might be well served by dual ported 18" mbm's.

check out 18sounds 18 lw1400. in 4 cubic footers tuned to 40hz, you'd be pushing 130 db from 50hz up. the jbl 2242's would be good too, just not quite as good of bang for the buck.

the impedance peaks right at 70 hz, which is the resonant frequency of your chest, more or less. so, only a couple hundred watts of actual current would be required to put you in cardiac arrhythmia. :-)

bridge an ep2500 on each sub and you will be done...no more wants for impact/mid bass slam/punch in the chest.

if that doesn't do it for you, step up to horns...lab sub. ;-)

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post #20 of 88 Old 04-30-2009, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

scott, what are you missing with your system?

given the enormity/magnitude/gigantisism of your subs, you might be well served by dual ported 18" mbm's.

check out 18sounds 18 lw1400. in 4 cubic footers tuned to 40hz, you'd be pushing 130 db from 50hz up. the jbl 2242's would be good too, just not quite as good of bang for the buck.

the impedance peaks right at 70 hz, which is the resonant frequency of your chest, more or less. so, only a couple hundred watts of actual current would be required to put you in cardiac arrhythmia. :-)

bridge an ep2500 on each sub and you will be done...no more wants for impact/mid bass slam/punch in the chest.

if that doesn't do it for you, step up to horns...lab sub. ;-)

*laughs*



Thanks, LTD for the recommendation. That's actually really close to what I intend to do. Have you been reading my mind? Still saving up at the moment though my plans are to: finish the quad sealed subs, build three new mains, and then if the midbass wasn't enough to add bass bins for the the midbass. I've been looking at those TD18+'s since they were announced.

Oh... all I am "missing" from my current system is extreme dynamic range (on the full range) and punchy midbass. Midbass may improve once I've installed teh quad 18's sealed but I don't know how much it will improve just yet. Since it appears that I am seeking "rock concert" like SPL's now, going with really sensitive speakers and adding midbass cabs seems like a surefire way to get all that.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #21 of 88 Old 04-30-2009, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
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*laughs*



Thanks, LTD for the recommendation. That's actually really close to what I intend to do. Have you been reading my mind? Still saving up at the moment though my plans are to: finish the quad sealed subs, build three new mains, and then if the midbass wasn't enough to add bass bins for the the midbass. I've been looking at those TD18+'s since they were announced.

Oh... all I am "missing" from my current system is extreme dynamic range (on the full range) and punchy midbass. Midbass may improve once I've installed teh quad 18's sealed but I don't know how much it will improve just yet. Since it appears that I am seeking "rock concert" like SPL's now, going with really sensitive speakers and adding midbass cabs seems like a surefire way to get all that.

Don't forget to increase power 10X or at least 4X to go along with the extra sensitivity to really get those peaks.

A sound system is not finished until you have to wear a helmet and eye protection to safely test it out.
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post #22 of 88 Old 04-30-2009, 11:14 AM
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*laughs*



Thanks, LTD for the recommendation. That's actually really close to what I intend to do. Have you been reading my mind? Still saving up at the moment though my plans are to: finish the quad sealed subs, build three new mains, and then if the midbass wasn't enough to add bass bins for the the midbass. I've been looking at those TD18+'s since they were announced.

Oh... all I am "missing" from my current system is extreme dynamic range (on the full range) and punchy midbass. Midbass may improve once I've installed teh quad 18's sealed but I don't know how much it will improve just yet. Since it appears that I am seeking "rock concert" like SPL's now, going with really sensitive speakers and adding midbass cabs seems like a surefire way to get all that.

scott, great minds... ;-)

the td18's look very interesting. 18sound 18lw1400's or jbl 2242's would be obvious substitutes. in my estimation, jbl hosed fellow member tack, and that pisses me off, so i wouldn't suggest them right now.

the higher xmax of the td18's doesn't have much value above 50hz or so, so i'd focus more on the other parameters.

i'd love to see the td18 and the 18lw1400 in a power compression shootout.

then again, a couple of good 15" would probably blow either of them up across the board.

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post #23 of 88 Old 04-30-2009, 11:18 AM
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A sound system is not finished until you have to wear a helmet and eye protection to safely test it out.

lol...spot on!

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post #24 of 88 Old 04-30-2009, 12:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myggpower View Post

The woofer has been mounted in the enclosure, and everything is hooked up:

A "mess" lol:



I've been recommended to use a 2nd order highpass filter at 35hz, and 4th order lowpass at 150hz - which should give me about -3dB at 50 and 150hz.

On my DCX I have set my 3 subs up like this:


Sub 1 - My DIY JBL 2226H

Left side: But 12, Frequency: 35hz [Highpass]
Right side: But 48, Frequency: 148hz [Lowpass]

Sub 2 - My DIY SS RLp18" - tuned to 23hz

Left side: But 48, Frequency: 20hz [Highpass]
Righ side: But 24, Frequency: 50hz [Lowpass]

Sub 3 - HSU MBM 12
- No filters applied as I use the built in on the HSU

The receiever has a Xover Frequency at 90hz (So im guessing no subs will play over that).


I would appreciate if someone could tell me I have everything set up correctly on the DCX 2496.



And now on to some impressions I've got so far, with the JBL MBM.

This things has some SICK punch. And I can tell you right away, I will have 2 of these, despite the fact that ONE is more than enough in my small room.



A bit off topic, but setup will soon consist of 2 x JBL MBMs (50-1X0hz), and 2x SS RLp18"s to play from 50hz and down. That should rock

If you are running the 2226 off of LFE then it is limited to 90Hz. later when you build a second one will you run them off of your main channel so that they can go up to 150Hz?
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post #25 of 88 Old 04-30-2009, 12:22 PM
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Well looks like I have 2 options here.

Either 2 18WL14s (Yellow) or 8 JBL 2240s (Blue). Red is my current pair of maelstroms.



The JBLs will cost more than double what the 18 sounds and thats even before shipping is added on the JBLs.
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post #26 of 88 Old 04-30-2009, 05:49 PM
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lhd, what are your goals? what are you trying to accomplish?

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post #27 of 88 Old 04-30-2009, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

lhd, what are your goals? what are you trying to accomplish?


I'm building mid bass modules just like the OP. When I originally decided to do this I was going to use the 2240s since you can find them on ebay rebuilt for relatively cheap. I just spec'd out the 18WL1400s and they're much cheaper at the right impedance and it leaves me a little room to add another pair of maelstroms in the future. If I cross them at 50 it should be pretty sweet.

I was being facetious in my last post but after reading it again it didn't come off that way. I'll have to make sure to add a smiley next time.

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Even i, the genius, only vaguely understand what i am saying here.
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post #28 of 88 Old 04-30-2009, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by LHD21 View Post

I'm building mid bass modules just like the OP. When I originally decided to do this I was going to use the 2240s since you can find them on ebay rebuilt for relatively cheap. I just spec'd out the 18WL1400s and they're much cheaper at the right impedance and it leaves me a little room to add another pair of maelstroms in the future. If I cross them at 50 it should be pretty sweet.

I was being facetious in my last post but after reading it again it didn't come off that way. I'll have to make sure to add a smiley next time.

dual 18lw1400 mbm's should blow you out of your seat. :-)

good quad 15's would be even better, by a bit. quad 18's would be even better. there is no limit to the insanity. :-)

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post #29 of 88 Old 05-01-2009, 04:31 AM
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dual 18lw1400 mbm's should blow you out of your seat. :-)

good quad 15's would be even better, by a bit. quad 18's would be even better. there is no limit to the insanity. :-)

Loudspeakers Plus Order xxxxxxxx Status Updated on 4/30/2009

Item: (18LW1400) 18 Sound 18LW1400 subwoofer x2
Status: In Progress



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post #30 of 88 Old 05-01-2009, 06:59 AM
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Loudspeakers Plus Order xxxxxxxx Status Updated on 4/30/2009

Item: (18LW1400) 18 Sound 18LW1400 subwoofer x2
Status: In Progress


you pulled the trigger on dual 18lw1400's?

don't tease me.

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