DIY speaker build using Waveguides...looking for advice - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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Old 04-23-2009, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zero the hero View Post

No - a tool called SPL Trace. All you do is copy the frequency curve, paste it into SPL Trace and plot the curve by clicking the mouse along the line. Then you save the file as .frd.
Same thing with the impedence curve - only you save as .zma
Sounds tough, but after 3-4 times its a piece of cake. Roman has a bunch of driver files already. Some PDFs dont allow you to copy the graph, but you can download Snag-it and copy it that way.

Seriously, it sounds more difficult than it is.

I will check it out, I use screenhunter for all my screen captures.

I will check out what Roman has, thanks!

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Old 04-23-2009, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Lets just assume that Im not really into machining parts atleast not yet, I have ZERO tools or patiences for that and Im not anal enough to get it right

Im really hoping that the parts I buy will fit together.

In that case, the 18sound XT1086 is another good choice. John J. is using it in some of his smaller pro systems -- TD12M, BMS 4552, XT1086. I'd say it's either that or the DDS if you want plug 'n play (assuming DDS QC is back up to snuff).

http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/html/18sound_horns.html

Dennis H
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by catapult View Post

In that case, the 18sound XT1086 is another good choice. John J. is using it in some of his smaller pro systems -- TD12M, BMS 4552, XT1086. I'd say it's either that or the DDS if you want plug 'n play (assuming DDS QC is back up to snuff).

http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/html/18sound_horns.html

Yeah, that was talked about already several posts suggested the PE horns are a fraction of the price and perform just as well so I might as well save some $$$ if it really doesn't matter

The 18sound compression drivers that crossover at 1200 or lower are too expensive for this project so how do I know if other compression drivers fit on the XT1086 outside of checking online for matches?

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Old 04-23-2009, 04:31 PM
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Dennis,

"the 18sound XT1086 is another good choice. John J. is using it in some of his smaller pro systems -- TD12M, BMS 4552, XT1086. "

Is there any more info on that somewhere?

Noah
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:59 PM
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Penn, any bolt-on 1" compression driver should fit okay. The BMS is one of the best you can buy and costs something like $140 (I forget, call Assistance Audio.)

Noah, http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/vie...php?f=3&t=1690 . He doesn't specify which 1" BMS driver but, for the few bucks difference, I'd go with the best one. Don't you have those drivers and waveguides? Time to get 'em playing, dude!

Edit: Assistance Audio also sells DDS and they'll give you a little off if you buy a 'kit' of waveguide + driver. But ask them about the current DDS QC first.

http://www.assistanceaudio.com/

Dennis H
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Old 04-23-2009, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

Penn, any bolt-on 1" compression driver should fit okay. The BMS is one of the best you can buy and costs something like $140 (I forget, call Assistance Audio.)

Noah, http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/vie...php?f=3&t=1690 . He doesn't specify which 1" BMS driver but, for the few bucks difference, I'd go with the best one. Don't you have those drivers and waveguides? Time to get 'em playing, dude!

Edit: Assistance Audio also sells DDS and they'll give you a little off if you buy a 'kit' of waveguide + driver. But ask them about the current DDS QC first.

http://www.assistanceaudio.com/


I emailed them, the email from the website did not work.

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Old 04-23-2009, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I need to summarize all the different options so I do not forget.....

Waveguides/horns

DDS eng 1-90 ($69)
18sound XT1086 ($88)
Dayton H12RW ($14) (screw-on not bolt)
Selenium HM25 ($23) (screw-on not bolt)
B&C ME45 ($53)
JBL PT-95 (or 338800) ($10)
Compression drivers
BMS 4552($145)
Radian 475PB ($169)
Selenium D220 ($44) (screw on)
Selemium D2500Ti ($78) (screw on)
B&C DE250 ($151)

Tweeters that can be used if we mod the horns


Crossovers

Selenium 2V1K2/600 2-Way Passive Crossover (1200Hz) with Dish ($68)
BMS 4552 1KHz crossover from Assistance Audio ($??? part of kit)

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Old 04-23-2009, 07:35 PM
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Assistance Audio did not get back to me about 2 years ago too despite several emails, could only guess they deal with bigger deals for the pro users or they are out touring. So Penn, don't hold your breathe there. usspeakers is just a wee bit more expensive, but Al Katz is really responsive.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 2100 View Post

Assistance Audio did not get back to me about 2 years ago too despite several emails, could only guess they deal with bigger deals for the pro users or they are out touring. So Penn, don't hold your breathe there. usspeakers is just a wee bit more expensive, but Al Katz is really responsive.

I have purchased several drivers from US Speakers, no problem with me if they have the products. I really wanted to get the kits and discount minus the Ciare 12" woofers.

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Old 04-23-2009, 07:53 PM
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Assistance is a very small company and their 'day job' is setting up the sound for concerts, etc. But they are the official US importer of BMS and also seem to have a better relationship with DDS than usspeakers (usspeakers sent those really crappy waveguides to John J.). You may have better luck contacting them by phone.

Dennis H
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Kind of a bump in the road to this projects, my TD12S choice might come back to bite me now and I always knew I should have went for the TD12Ms.

From John's website

Quote:


For going up to 1KHz or so, the TDM's are going to be the best option. They use the cloth accordion surround which really has no resonance issues until above 4KHz. The foam surround on the X, H, and S models does have a resonance at 500hz and 1khz. This resonance causes a narrow dip at both frequencies. As it is a dip and not a peak it is not extremely significant, but the TDM's avoid this totally. Either way can work. If you need extra output on the low end, the TD15X will give you about 3db more overall. If not, the TD15M will be a little flatter.

I wondered about the measured dips I see in my tests when I use the TD12S above the 400Hz crossover I have always set for it.

Time to find new drivers Anyone want 3 TD12S drivers for a decent discount?

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Old 04-23-2009, 10:17 PM
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4552 on xt1086



source: http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...nsound&session
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:32 PM
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what about the $10 jbl horn from the econowave project?

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=150939

dr. geddes kindly measured the combo:



note: eq'd for more or less flat on-axis response.
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Time to find new drivers Anyone want 3 TD12S drivers for a decent discount?

they are probably just fine. like linkwitz says, sins of omission are...not so bad. also, you could always use them for the .5 woofer in some 2.5 way speakers. that would reduce cone motion significantly, which reduces distortion (of course). if you sell them, you'll kick yourself later. ;-)

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Old 04-24-2009, 12:24 AM
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penngray,

"Time to find new drivers"

Might you be interested in a set of 3 ea 18Sound 12ND710 http://www.eighteensound.it/index.as...roduct&pid=238 , BMS4552ND, and XT1086's? All brand new.

I've got some of the 30 ppi reticulated foam to fill the waveguides, too (but it's 1/2" sheet that would need to be cut up into layers).

I got them before the Geddes kits were available, but the Nathan 10 would fit my available space a whole lot better.

Noah
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Old 04-24-2009, 01:06 AM
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so you are scrapping your ava's/18sound/bms in favor of maelstroms/nathan's?

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Old 04-24-2009, 01:09 AM
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That's the idea, but not if I have to take too much of a hit.

Noah
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Old 04-24-2009, 01:17 AM
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that was 'lucky 13'. hope you aren't supersticious.


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Old 04-24-2009, 01:49 AM
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oh $hit

Noah
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Old 04-24-2009, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

they are probably just fine. like linkwitz says, sins of omission are...not so bad. also, you could always use them for the .5 woofer in some 2.5 way speakers. that would reduce cone motion significantly, which reduces distortion (of course). if you sell them, you'll kick yourself later. ;-)


We shall see....its an intial knee jerk reaction because things seem to be coming together and then I missed something so obvious I already new the 93dB sensitivity was a little low so I was going to use two of them below the horn (maybe).

I never bought them for anything more then 40Hz to 400Hz this was just something rattling around in my head. I agree that they are still very useful just not for this specific project.

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Old 04-24-2009, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


what about the $10 jbl horn from the econowave project?

Already mentioned in the thread but I forgot to add it to the list...where can I buy it though, only the JBL pro website? Its it the PT-F95 stuff or the 338800, the econ waveguide thread says PT-F95.

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Old 04-24-2009, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

penngray,

"Time to find new drivers"

Might you be interested in a set of 3 ea 18Sound 12ND710 http://www.eighteensound.it/index.as...roduct&pid=238 , BMS4552ND, and XT1086's? All brand new.

I've got some of the 30 ppi reticulated foam to fill the waveguides, too (but it's 1/2" sheet that would need to be cut up into layers).

I got them before the Geddes kits were available, but the Nathan 10 would fit my available space a whole lot better.

Maybe

Where did you get the foam too?

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Old 04-24-2009, 11:57 AM
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IIRC someone in one of the diyaudio thread posted a link to an online vendor.

My plan was to

- make a plug of the inside of the horn with 2-part expanding foam
- slice that up along the axis into 1/2" thick layers
- trace the outlines on the reticulated foam
- cut out with scissors
- stack layers and sew together

Noah
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Old 04-24-2009, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

IIRC someone in one of the diyaudio thread posted a link to an online vendor.

My plan was to

- make a plug of the inside of the horn with 2-part expanding foam
- slice that up along the axis into 1/2" thick layers
- trace the outlines on the reticulated foam
- cut out with scissors
- stack layers and sew together

What about "Felt" on the horns?

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Old 04-24-2009, 03:06 PM
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Felt where/why?

But it's certainly too dense/absorptive for the waveguide cavity.

Noah
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Old 04-24-2009, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Felt where/why?

But it's certainly too dense/absorptive for the waveguide cavity.

I didnt save the link but someone added thin felt to the horn walls in one of the DIY threads somewhere.

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Old 04-24-2009, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Update After reading some info fromt the "Hi-End and Hi-Eff loudspeakers system" link

http://www.audiodesignguide.com/HiEff/HiEff.html
and
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...1&pagenumber=3

Goal is a 1KHz crossover 2-way design.

Waveguides/horns

DDS eng 1-90 ($69)
18sound XT1086 ($88)
Dayton H12RW ($14) (screw-on not bolt)
Selenium HM25 ($23) (screw-on not bolt)
B&C ME45 ($53)
JBL PT-95 (or 338800) ($10)


Compression drivers

Beyma CP380M ($190)
BMS 4552($145)
Radian 475PB ($169)
Selenium D220 ($44) (screw on)
Selemium D2500Ti ($78) (screw on)
B&C DE250 ($151)

Crossovers

Selenium 2V1K2/600 2-Way Passive Crossover (1200Hz) with Dish ($68)
BMS 4552 1KHz crossover from Assistance Audio ($??? part of kit)


Here are his comments about the D220, the link shows the Harmonic Distortion is audible in the higher frequencies when played really loud...no sure I would ever get that loud though!


"Someone have suggest me a cheaper compression driver near the 50$ like the Selenium D220T used in the Econowave collaborative project but I have discarded this because the distortion level of this driver is very high (see differences).
"

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Old 04-24-2009, 05:49 PM
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I don't think there are any 1" compression drivers that work well down to 1kHz, and you'd need a 15" woofer to match directivity at XO.

I believe the XO points that give matching directivity are 900 Hz for a 15" woofer and 1200 Hz for a 12".

Noah
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Old 04-24-2009, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

DDS eng 1-90 ($69)
18sound XT1086 ($88)

Where can you get them for that price? $US129 at US Speaker.
http://www.usspeaker.com/dds%20cfd-eng-1-90pro-1.htm

I'd like to grab a couple of these for a project later to test them out. Being in Oz, John J's pics showing the ones he was delivered a while back worried me. I hope the build Q has improved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

"Someone have suggest me a cheaper compression driver near the 50$ like the Selenium D220T used in the Econowave collaborative project but I have discarded this because the distortion level of this driver is very high (see differences).
"

The Selenium looks more like it's breaking up to me, but I'd need to see a CSD to get a better idea. I'm not at fan at all of Ti diapragms, much preferring the mylars or sometimes, aluminium. The DE250 and CP380M are both excellent in my experience.
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Old 04-24-2009, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Where can you get them for that price? $US129 at US Speaker.
http://www.usspeaker.com/dds%20cfd-eng-1-90pro-1.htm

I'd like to grab a couple of these for a project later to test them out. Being in Oz, John J's pics showing the ones he was delivered a while back worried me. I hope the build Q has improved.

Its probably a bad batch or you would read about the problems more online.

The price for the DDS was from here http://www.assistanceaudio.com/10_DDS.html

Quote:


The Selenium looks more like it's breaking up to me, but I'd need to see a CSD to get a better idea. I'm not at fan at all of Ti diapragms, much preferring the mylars or sometimes, aluminium. The DE250 and CP380M are both excellent in my experience.

for double the price, we are getting better performance but I have to be willing to pay the price but it depends on individual goals. I suspect the D220 in my case would actually be fine.


Tonight I spent some time testing my new NAD T-175 (no hum in my system finally and I can get rid of stop gap cheater plugs but that is a different topic). AT the same time I once again moved my crossover from my TD12 up to 1200Hz then 1800Hz, eliminating my PHL1120 all together. Measurements are great and all but sometimes you have to go with what you hear and I spent 3 hours listening to the foo fighters live and then vintage AC/DC....I like it, I spent time listening from different angles too so I wasnt just in front. Maybe Im not a good critical listener but I enjoy the TD12S even above 1000Hz tonight.

With the DCX I can tweak the dips so who knows! If John @ AE would swap the TD12S for TD12Ms that would be cool, The ones for this project are still in boxes unused, untouched.

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