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post #1 of 70 Old 04-24-2009, 12:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Some of you may remember an earlier project of mine which included a JBL
2242H in ~8³. After testing in a temp box to make sure it was the type of bass
I wanted (it is, and then some) I started on a permanent box for it.

This is tough for me so Ill just blurt it out. I dropped the driver and ruined it.
I rushed it to the hospital (JBL Northridge) but I was too late. Apparently the magnet shifted and was now destined for doorstop duty.
Im still a little miffed that the company that makes these couldn't repair it.

Anyway, fast forward a bit, of course now I cant find any deals on 2242h's.
I noticed that John recently came out with an 18. I talked with him for a bit and it looks to be a drop in for my application. Wrap it up, Ill take it.

The TD18 has about five more mm xmax than the 2242 but has quite a bit less xmech. It has a 2.5 inch voice coil compared to 4 in on the JBL. John says the Lamda motor dissipates heat as well as or better than most 4 inchers however. We shall see.

One thing I didnt expect because I never saw any pictures of the driver, was the giant phase plug (?) It is stationary and the cone moves over it. Maybe John will weigh in on this as its not mentioned on the product page.

http://www.aespeakers.com/news.php?start=0&news_id=20

I left the box halfway done in disgust back when the driver broke, so I have a little work to do before I fire it up.

Heres some pics..................







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post #2 of 70 Old 04-24-2009, 01:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Heres some box pics
8 feet ~8 inch port, tuning will be somewhere around 23 Hz.
Power is XTi 2K, speakon connection.

My boy will be home on leave from Iraq for a couple weeks so this project will have very little priority.













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post #3 of 70 Old 04-24-2009, 08:02 AM
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Very Very nice. Great work on that bracing.


Also, please tell your son thank you for his service.
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post #4 of 70 Old 04-24-2009, 10:01 AM
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Oh my sweet jebus! I'd love to know how this one turns out.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #5 of 70 Old 04-24-2009, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tack View Post

The TD18 has about five more mm xmax than the 2242 but has quite a bit less xmech. It has a 2.5 inch voice coil compared to 4 in on the JBL. John says the Lamda motor dissipates heat as well as or better than most 4 inchers however. We shall see.

I think you'll be quite happy with the results. One thing to note on the Xmax issue. JBL quotes 50mm P-P before damage. That is the clearance before the coil could hit the back plate. We have even more clearance than, about 75mm total physical clearance for the coil. What they don't mention is that their surround/spider combination limits about 20mm. The cone/surround we use is the same as on the EV 18's and also limits 20mm, but our spider has has more travel and is very linear to 20mm.

Quote:


One thing I didnt expect because I never saw any pictures of the driver, was the giant phase plug (?) It is stationary and the cone moves over it. Maybe John will weigh in on this as its not mentioned on the product page.

I'm sorry about that. I didn't realize you had never seen the driver pics. We need to get pics edited up and on the website with full information soon. The phase plug is a large part of the heatsinking ability in this driver as with our other TD woofers. There is more heatsinking area for the coil to shed heat to the adjacent steel in this driver than in the 4" coil JBL and EV drivers due to the massive thick top plate and aluminum VC former.

I'm also eagerly awaiting to hear your results on this project.

John

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post #6 of 70 Old 04-24-2009, 11:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Exo, and I will tell him for you.

Scott, just bring some of that pizza down and check it yourself Three hours...

John, don't be sorry, its not a problem, just didn't expect it. The fit and finish is top shelf and the cone feels very high quality. Possibly a dumb question here, but does a smaller VC increase the VD? Also is that phase plug strong enough to lift the driver with?

Long day here. Take care.
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post #7 of 70 Old 04-25-2009, 01:42 AM
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looks like it may have been inspired by the 18lw1400? thicker top plate maybe? gives a little bit more bl.

how are you calculating xmax? better yet, what is top plate thickness and coil length?

interesting bit about the spider. 18sound claims a double silicone spider for "improved linearity" but compared to what...who knows.

upgrades include copper sleeve. does inductance matter up to 80hz?

uses heat sinking in place of venting for cooling strategy.

curvilinear cone vs straight wall/deep dish cone. what is the advantage of curvilinear cone up to 80hz? the 18sound cone is ultra stiff and as a result has a monster breakup around 1.8khz. any frequency sweeps?

durability needs to be proven of course, but aes is so far so good, so we can be hopeful.

this looks like a very promising driver...sufficient xmax for deep bass, sufficient motor for good damping of the higher notes.

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post #8 of 70 Old 04-25-2009, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tack View Post

Possibly a dumb question here, but does a smaller VC increase the VD? Also is that phase plug strong enough to lift the driver with?

It really doesn't increase Vd by any significant amount. In a dustcapped driver it wouldn't be an issue at all. In a driver with phase plug, the coil Sd is so small compared to the driver it really doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

looks like it may have been inspired by the 18lw1400? thicker top plate maybe? gives a little bit more bl.

Not sure I've ever looked at the 18lw1400 other than a quick glance. This is basically the same as the other Lambda drivers that originated back 8-10 years ago now. The only difference is we went up to a 2.5" VC as the 2" just didn't give quite enough Bl for the big 18" driver.

Quote:


how are you calculating xmax? better yet, what is top plate thickness and coil length?

Xmax based on the Bl curve and the point at which Bl drops to 70% of the rest value. Top plate is 18mm and coil is 38mm long 4 layer flat copper.

Quote:


upgrades include copper sleeve. does inductance matter up to 80hz?

Linearity of inductance is more important than the absolute value. The other benefits are the reduction in flux modulation which is a huge benefit. Better heat transfer as well.

Quote:


uses heat sinking in place of venting for cooling strategy.

The other thing to look at is with the very tight gap and the top of the coil being open allows for the air to be quickly displaced in the gap between the coil and the pole.

Quote:


curvilinear cone vs straight wall/deep dish cone. what is the advantage of curvilinear cone up to 80hz? the 18sound cone is ultra stiff and as a result has a monster breakup around 1.8khz. any frequency sweeps?

Really not much of an issue in the cone shape. For sub 80hz it just needs to be strong enough to do what it has to. We have some people using them to 250-300hz for large 3way speakers though.

Quote:


durability needs to be proven of course, but aes is so far so good, so we can be hopeful.

Elite audio replaced their 12 B&C 18TBX100's with our drivers back the day before new years. They've been playing them multiple times per week for live sound use powered off Lab Gruppen amplifiers. They have had no issues to this point and have played them quite hard for some large live shows. For any type of home environment use they should do very well then.

John

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post #9 of 70 Old 04-25-2009, 02:09 PM
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Hmm, massive 3ways using this driver, TD10m, and 2" compression driver/horn of choice?

YID DIY
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post #10 of 70 Old 04-28-2009, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
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A little progress.

Rear of box on with blackout so you cant see anything through the port.
I thought about gluing a mirror or painting a big eye back there but uh..no.





Recessed Speakon.

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post #11 of 70 Old 04-28-2009, 11:24 PM
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Looking good, I like the recessed speakon connector. Once I bought them, I will never go back to any other type of connector.

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post #12 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 01:46 AM
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thanks john j. for the extensive reply.

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post #13 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 01:47 AM
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Looking good...

+1. subwoofer art. internals deserve a plexi-panel.

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post #14 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 06:04 AM
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Curious, have you done any modeling with WinISD or a similar program with this driver. I tried using the specs on ae's website and it rejects them. It tries to make the VD like 1.6 or something. I triple checked my numbers I enetered and they are all right, so I'm curious what the deal is there.
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post #15 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vili View Post

Curious, have you done any modeling with WinISD or a similar program with this driver. I tried using the specs on ae's website and it rejects them. It tries to make the VD like 1.6 or something. I triple checked my numbers I enetered and they are all right, so I'm curious what the deal is there.

I have had no trouble with it in Unibox. I don't use WinISD as I find it a huge PITA.
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post #16 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 08:30 AM
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Try entering only the qms, fs, vas, mms, re, bl and PE from the website. Winisd will autofill in the rest. All the numbers it substitutes are very close to John's listed values.

The only major difference is the Vd. John calculates that from peak to peak, WinISD calculates from peak to middle so cut it in half and you are good to go.
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post #17 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vili View Post

Curious, have you done any modeling with WinISD or a similar program with this driver. I tried using the specs on ae's website and it rejects them. It tries to make the VD like 1.6 or something. I triple checked my numbers I enetered and they are all right, so I'm curious what the deal is there.

yes.

default winisd enclosure 2.9 cu. ft. 29 hz = gray.

8 cu. ft. 25 hz = red.

both with 4th order l-r filter @ 80 hz.


LL

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post #18 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 08:39 AM
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winisd can be frustrating. here is what i do:
make sure all fields are clear, then
enter qes then hit tab, enter qms
hit tab a couple times and let it calculate qts
hit tab a few times to move to mms
enter mms, re, bl, le, sd, xmax, and pe
by using tab after entering each data, it will calculate what it needs to
i no longer get any conflicts
sometimes the specs calculated don't match exactly the manufacturer specs, but its only rounding type errors, so it is not material

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post #19 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 08:54 AM
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Even doing it with that I still get the Vd as 1.71 and he states it on the website as 3.4
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post #20 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vili View Post

Even doing it with that I still get the Vd as 1.71 and he states it on the website as 3.4

John lists it as Peak to Peak. WinISD does resting to Peak so it is half what John lists.
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post #21 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 09:01 AM
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So with that then all of the numbers are right correct?

The graph I'm seeing with the specs is horrible. I'm getting the -3db dropoff at 107hz. And a fsc at almost 52hz. WinISD must have lost its mind as that is with an 8 cubic foot box.
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post #22 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 09:14 AM
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you have to model it with a low pass filter, otherwise it looks like a high f3. It models similar to the SoundSplinter drivers.
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post #23 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 09:21 AM
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This is my first DIY so I'm not familiar with how others work exactly. The only other I've played with is a maelstrom-x and they look completely different.
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post #24 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 09:29 AM
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Look at the pic in LTD02's post. If he did not have a low pass filter configured, then the response would rise as it went further up the range. Adding a low pass filter at 80hz, as you would in real life, shows a realistic curve.
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post #25 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 10:47 AM
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Using Winisd...

Input the following parameters first as they are the most concrete. RE, BL, MMS, CMS. Let it calculate. Don't freak out over small differences from the published or mfg specs they really won't change things that much. Then follow with QMS, xmax, PE, LE , etc... speaker Q's, FS and VAS are all going to vary quite a bit between drivers. Again don't freak out if it says that the FS should be 23.7hz and it's listed as 24.5hz by the mfg. This is fairly negligible in the scheme of things.
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post #26 of 70 Old 04-29-2009, 05:52 PM
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tack, i'm still p-o'd that jbl didn't help you out. at a min, they should have offered a replacement at cost. that's what i would have done. my guess is that john j. would have done the same. i have been a long time jbl'r...it's fading though...

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post #27 of 70 Old 04-30-2009, 12:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

Looking good, I like the recessed speakon connector. Once I bought them, I will never go back to any other type of connector.


Thanks, that's a nice compliment coming from you, I respect your work quite a bit. Agreed on the speakons, They are the obvious progression from speaker wire.Id like to wire all my speakers with them and get rid of speaker wire all together.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

+1. subwoofer art. internals deserve a plexi-panel.

Thanks, I got a little crazy with the glue though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

tack, i'm still p-o'd that jbl didn't help you out. at a min, they should have offered a replacement at cost. that's what i would have done. my guess is that john j. would have done the same. i have been a long time jbl'r...it's fading though...

I wasn't happy for sure. It was a little odd, she left a voice mail saying she had an estimate for me, and when I called she said it was junk. I'm not real confident with their service. These were her exact words, no joking, "so the magnet shifted and that's....bad" Ya, thanks for that.

The cone was stuck at the furthest rearward stroke, and none of the other service centers around here would touch it.

The JBL chicks' best offer was letting me buy a new one at full boat list price which is nine or so hundred bucks. I still get pissed at myself thinking about it. It'll be a while before that fades.... grrrrrr.

I think the Lambda is going to work out real well though.I just hope the port is going to be big enough for the extra x-max it offers. Id probably go bigger if I was starting from scratch with this driver. Other than that, it models real close to the 2242.
I hope to get the same or better effortless bass and it's much nicer working with John J.
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post #28 of 70 Old 04-30-2009, 07:25 AM
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"I just hope the port is going to be big enough "

what are the port dimensions again? 8" diameter and shooting for 23hz tuning(?), what is the length? i'm calculating 26" would be required and your port doesn't appear to be that long.

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post #29 of 70 Old 04-30-2009, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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The box is a little more than 8'³, the port tube is marked at 8 in, but is about 7.375 actual, 15 inches long plus 1.5 inches of flare routed into the baffle and winIsd is about 2 to 3 Hz pessimistic on my 3 other builds.

Apparently the quickrete tubes are "nominal" and you can pick through them to get plus or minus. I guess they can pack them inside of each other that way.

I have an Accupower ten inch flared port but the logistics of getting it inside a reasonable sized box were a little more than I anticipated. I plan to use it for an upcoming low tuned project.
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post #30 of 70 Old 04-30-2009, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tack View Post

The box is a little more than 8'³, the port tube is marked at 8 in, but is about 7.375 actual, 15 inches long plus 1.5 inches of flare routed into the baffle and winIsd is about 2 to 3 Hz pessimistic on my 3 other builds.

Apparently the quickrete tubes are "nominal" and you can pick through them to get plus or minus. I guess they can pack them inside of each other that way.

I have an Accupower ten inch flared port but the logistics of getting it inside a reasonable sized box were a little more than I anticipated. I plan to use it for an upcoming low tuned project.

those dimensions look great. i'm getting roughly 25hz tuning, so a little plus or minus will be fine. can't wait to hear your impressions.

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