Peavey IPR class D amps - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 958 Old 03-23-2010, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortyboy View Post

Still working on it... I assume that you are using this document here?

http://www.chemi-con.co.jp/e/catalog...n-e-090901.pdf

If that is the case and you have not 'contacted a representative of Nippon Chemi-Con' for more complete details then once again you are waving wet fingers in the air. At the moment it looks like you are just using

LX=L·KTemp

and extrapolating some number from the case measurements to end up with a 'guess' of the actual core temperature or, perhaps, using a 'guide' figure. The full equation is given as

LX=L·KTemp·KVoltage·KRipple

Where KVoltage only applies to specific devices and in this case might be assumed to be 1 giving

LX=L·KTemp·KRipple

You still need a value for KRipple and that is not going to happen without contacting the manufacturer and/or providing ripple current data. Even so we are still back down in the realms of
.

Yes the above link is the document I am using. Since Kripple is indicated on page 8 that is what I used in my post #491. But I think as Jinjuku indicated the question about component life has been answered. However if you do have additional question concerning the life of the capacitor please send me a reply and I will try and assist.
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post #542 of 958 Old 03-23-2010, 07:26 PM
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When did AVSForum turn into 4chan?

 

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post #543 of 958 Old 03-23-2010, 07:28 PM
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When did AVSForum turn into 4chan?

Priceless.
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post #544 of 958 Old 03-23-2010, 08:22 PM
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"I really don't see how the difference in a 5Hz HP vs a 16Hz HP will protect the consumer (vs the amp). Either way, it's a deal breaker for me. Since I represent .01% of the targeted audience (according to Ivan, that is), no harm, no foul.

Noah, you mean like the sentence before this one?"

I'm not sure what you mean by what I mean but that's a perfectly aboveboard and straightforward sentence.

Noah
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post #545 of 958 Old 03-24-2010, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by AVSBama View Post

Yes the above link is the document I am using. Since Kripple is indicated on page 8 that is what I used in my post #491. But I think as Jinjuku indicated the question about component life has been answered. However if you do have additional question concerning the life of the capacitor please send me a reply and I will try and assist.

You Mean...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

The question about component life has been answered. Ad-nauseum.

Please for the love of god would you just just the hell up about it!? There isn't an argument that you can make right now that people are going to believe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Not that I am really bothered but there seem to be a number of low post count 'contributors' to my protracted demise who seem to be able to shout a lot without providing much content.

'Fortunately' Nippon Chemi-Con have not replied to my questions yet. Perhaps I should start dissing them as well? Fancy designing in components from a manufacturer who does not provide information when it is requested.. It's rather like buying an amplifier from a manufacturer who does not provide information when it is requested.

Perhaps they are just considering things before giving up and calling me a 'DumbAss'.

In the meantime let's not look at the sums they provide again...

LX=L·KTemp·KVoltage·KRipple

KVoltage does not apply so we get...

LX=L·KTemp·KRipple

Let's guess for the moment, I assume I will be shouted at if I am wrong or just shouted at, that KRipple includes the frequency effects and for the 'purpose' we can ignore it and just say it's all happening at 120Hz so, for the moment, we can set KRipple to 1.

http://www.chemi-con.co.jp/e/catalog...n-e-090901.pdf

Make much of a muchness of the relative levels of ripple current and their frequencies.

So, now we get back to your

LX=L·KTemp

Going back to the SMH data sheet and this picture,



We get

45C 1.73
60C 1.50
70C 1.32
85C 1.00

as your 120Hz ripple current multipliers for Tamb, excuse me whilst I ignore the 'fan'.

For the 'case size', Q50, as ponted out by yourself the 85C ripple current rating would be 4.05A and the ESR would be 53mR

Run some sums

85C 1.00 4.05A Pdiss = 0.869W
70C 1.32 5.35A Pdiss = 1.514W delta 0.645W 15C
60C 1.50 6.08A Pdiss = 1.956W delta 1.087W 25C
45C 1.73 7.00A Pdiss = 2.602W delta 1.732W 40C

Divide delta power by delta temperature and you end up with something like a steady 43mW/C invert that for thermal resistance, core to case [?] and it is, probably, 23C/W for a device with this case size.

Of course you might wish to extrapolate those figures down to whatever Mr Bennet is measuring on his bench with his thermocouple on the top of the capacitor.

I'll give a hint.

Although it is still going to give a 'wrong' answer for core temperature he 'should' be measuring the 'base' temperature and 'taking a guess' he should be measuring it on the positive terminal of the capacitor. Pick the one whose positive terminal is at ground to avoid your themocouple going fruit bat which it will anyway. Run it, switch it off, plug it [the probe] into the meter, take the measurement.

I assume he is, at this moment, installing an HT system to AVS forum standards and will be providing the PopCorn.....

However, referring back to

http://www.chemi-con.co.jp/e/catalog...n-e-090901.pdf

However, operating and surrounding conditions, especially the operating conditions influence ambient temperatures mutually. The ambient temperature in this range will be very changeable; therefore, lifetime estimation under 40C should use 40 as Tx.

Which is effectively a statement by Nippon Chemi-Con that they will not honour their warranty on their devices if you guessed you could get away with less than 40C when making your guess.

Going back to those figures realise that all of them, if used at the stated ripple currents [120Hz assumed] take the lifetime of the device down to 2000Hrs. Now all you have to do is find out whether the claimed operating conditions, circuit breaker included, or the KRipple factor saves the day.

Thanks for the offer of a PM.....

I'm really not bothered.

In as much as I am slapping Peavey over this one I am also slapping all of the other manufacturers of Pro-Audio gear for what looks like a similar failure to pay attention to this sort of thing whilst claiming superthrob reliability from their products.

Of course I could be wrong.....
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post #546 of 958 Old 03-24-2010, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortyboy View Post

You Mean...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Not that I am really bothered but there seem to be a number of low post count 'contributors' to my protracted demise who seem to be able to shout a lot without providing much content.

You aren't contributing either. What others are saying: Your component life argument isn't convincing.

There isn't anyone here that thinks that they won't get a reasonable shelf life out of this product so why do you persist?

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortyboy View Post


'Fortunately' Nippon Chemi-Con have not replied to my questions yet. Perhaps I should start dissing them as well? Fancy designing in components from a manufacturer who does not provide information when it is requested.. It's rather like buying an amplifier from a manufacturer who does not provide information when it is requested.

Perhaps they are just considering things before giving up and calling me a 'DumbAss'.

Of course I could be wrong.....

No you are not wrong. I agree with Chemi-Con and everyone else that you are a dumbass. SNH already told you the capacitor is a custom. You can see from the catalog the capacitor is a custom. If you had basic engineering experience you would know that data on custom parts can not be released to anyone other than the customer. "Dissing" them is just more Mortyboy slander. Without this information you do not know what the quality is of the foil and you have no facts. Any claims you make are as pointless as you are. You contribute nothing of any value to the forum.
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post #548 of 958 Old 03-24-2010, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

You aren't contributing either. What others are saying: Your component life argument isn't convincing.

There isn't anyone here that thinks that they won't get a reasonable shelf life out of this product so why do you persist?

I did not notice 'others', beyond a 'select few', telling me my component life argument is not convincing.

As to your self election for representation of others opinions.

Pffft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New_Member View Post

No you are not wrong. I agree with Chemi-Con and everyone else that you are a dumbass. SNH already told you the capacitor is a custom. You can see from the catalog the capacitor is a custom. If you had basic engineering experience you would know that data on custom parts can not be released to anyone other than the customer. "Dissing" them is just more Mortyboy slander. Without this information you do not know what the quality is of the foil and you have no facts. Any claims you make are as pointless as you are. You contribute nothing of any value to the forum.

Chemi-Con has not told me I am a DumbAss, yet, Mr Dufuss.

They are still prepared to label the capacitor as being SMH series so I can take 'guesses'.

Did you know there are rules and regs against misrepresenting a product via such labelling?

Otherwise you get to grind the part numbers off the bits you might consider to be important....

Pffft
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortyboy View Post

I did not notice 'others', beyond a 'select few', telling me my component life argument is not convincing.

They are still prepared to label the capacitor as being SMH series so I can take 'guesses'.

Did you know there are rules and regs against misrepresenting a product via such labelling?


Name a member who thinks your argument is convincing.

Show me a rule or reg that governs what a capacitor manufacturer uses as a part number label and how marking it SMH is misrepresenting. Again more non-fact based slander from you.

If I were Chemi-Con, I would not use SMH. I would use MB=DA
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post #550 of 958 Old 03-24-2010, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by New_Member View Post

Name a member who thinks your argument is convincing.

Show me a rule or reg that governs what a capacitor manufacturer uses as a part number label and how marking it SMH is misrepresenting. Again more non-fact based slander from you.

If I were Chemi-Con, I would not use SMH. I would use MB=DA

Without wishing to come across as being pretentious maybe the others are eating Toffee Popcorn with added Choccy Bits, and Cashew Nuts, saturated with Double Cream and a bit of Molasses Sugar and other Fruit Stuff.

How should it be my problem you are selling your, take a guess, Rusty Ford Pinto on Ebay as a Ferrari Testosterone because you stuck a Ferrari label on it?

Go figure I should moan at Ferrari when the oil pump takes a dump and they should larf at me.
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post #551 of 958 Old 03-24-2010, 08:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortyboy View Post

Without wishing to come across as ..... Fruit Stuff.

How should it be my problem you are selling your, take a guess, Rusty Ford Pinto on Ebay as a Ferrari Testosterone because you stuck a Ferrari label on it?

Go figure I should moan at Ferrari when the oil pump takes a dump and they should larf at me.

So it is your contention that in this instance, Nippon Chemi-Con is selling a product comperable to a Rusty Ford Pinto instead of a high quality capacitor typical of what gave them their respected reputation for which they are known in the capacitor industry.

From what I read pages ago, you are basing this determination on a picture and part number of a proprietary part.

I now fully understand why you are unemployable.
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post #552 of 958 Old 03-24-2010, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortyboy View Post

Without wishing to come across as being pretentious maybe the others are eating Toffee Popcorn with added Choccy Bits, and Cashew Nuts, saturated with Double Cream and a bit of Molasses Sugar and other Fruit Stuff.

How should it be my problem you are selling your, take a guess, Rusty Ford Pinto on Ebay as a Ferrari Testosterone because you stuck a Ferrari label on it?

Go figure I should moan at Ferrari when the oil pump takes a dump and they should larf at me.

Is there any way we can get a Moderator here to gag Mortyboy?

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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post #553 of 958 Old 03-24-2010, 09:23 AM
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Is there any way we can get a Moderator hear to gag Mortyboy?

I think he is doing a pretty god job of it himself.

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post #554 of 958 Old 03-24-2010, 09:59 AM
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When did AVSForum turn into 4chan?

Though some posts are well past that point, we're not there yet.

Pics aren't near as funny/disturbing.

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I now fully understand why you are unemployable.

Understatement.

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post #555 of 958 Old 03-24-2010, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by New_Member View Post

So it is your contention that in this instance, Nippon Chemi-Con is selling a product comperable to a Rusty Ford Pinto instead of a high quality capacitor typical of what gave them their respected reputation for which they are known in the capacitor industry.

From what I read pages ago, you are basing this determination on a picture and part number of a proprietary part.

I now fully understand why you are unemployable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I think you might find that they labelled it SMH 85C because it is SMH 85C and therefore we might treat it as such.
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I think he is doing a pretty god job of it himself.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18361920

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post #557 of 958 Old 03-24-2010, 11:58 AM
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Hmmmm.. There.. fixed that one for you. Consider it free, diaper service costs extra.

Oh, Just a Mo. Strike that one.....

http://willkemp-words.com/working_in_afghanistan/

I suppose you will be surfing with Mr SadHole in AussieLand.
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Hmmmm.. There.. fixed that one for you. Consider it free, diaper service costs extra.

Oh, Just a Mo. Strike that one.....

http://willkemp-words.com/working_in_afghanistan/

I suppose you will be surfing with Mr SadHole in AussieLand.

Of i will be deployed soon enough for 9 months over there

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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

QSC/Behringer/American Audio/Marathon, all have 2nd order roll off at 5Hz. In fact, it would be easier to list what amps don't. This is the first I'm aware of that rolls off that high which would eliminate it as a possible power plant for lots of DIY subs.

FWIW, a lot of QSC and other pro amps have a F3 of 8Hz, not 5Hz.
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

FWIW, a lot of QSC and other pro amps have a F3 of 8Hz, not 5Hz.

I just want an amp that can do 0hz at 120dB That would be totally mind blowing. I hope the caps can keep up.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortyboy View Post

In as much as I am slapping Peavey over this one I am also slapping all of the other manufacturers of Pro-Audio gear for what looks like a similar failure to pay attention to this sort of thing whilst claiming superthrob reliability from their products.

Of course I could be wrong.....

And now the entire industry is full of idiots? Dang dude, come back off your high horse and take a look at reality. I mean seriously, pro-audio users are such idiots...always replacing their amplifiers every two months. You have absolutely no clue.

You willing to put money behind your claims? You state the hours and we'll measure the audio performance before and after. You seem so confident in your crap claims, so this is gonna be some real easy money for me...

Btw, you wouldn't be the first person spewing such verbose claims about the industry....and all the rest before you were just as inept despite claiming such vast years of "experience" with "similar circuits" and couldn't design an audio product to save their lives. And the funny thing is they all went down screaming about how nobody understands why it will never work...

Yes, we all know you're different...you're armed with your Switcher CAD, some photos, and a brain that isn't very good at thinking...But by all means, keep coming back with comments like "guessing this" and "assuming that"...it really gives you way more credibility.

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So much has gone on so quickly!
For Mortyboy, kudos sir, that Star Trek parody was hilarious, had me laughing out loud. Other than that humorous outburst, you are scaring me. It is very nice that you must be correct. Good. Go easy though, let the others catch up.

For the others, this thread is one good read, almost a study in conflict and conflict resolution. Someone might want to do a study and critical analysis.

I am thinking I am confused as to the best label so far:
Choices
1 As The World Turns
2 All My Children
3 My Favorite Martian.

I wish all of you well and I will tune in tomorrow for more fun and games. Please keep up the good work, remember to pay attention to bad TV commercials, and get back to us all with math, formulas, and personal insults. You may to continue to apply nonsense and mysterious references as required. Knowledge of arcane facts will be bonus material on Tuesdays.

Anyone know why they call "White Papers" white papers?

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post #563 of 958 Old 03-24-2010, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by findbuddha View Post

Sickneedhelp, will these run off both 120 and 240v? We're a little slow to catch up on new products here in Australia, and the exchange rate's rather good at the moment.

Thanks

The IPR-1600 has been available in Australia for A while now so you should'nt have any trouble finding A supplier..
Sam at Entertainment Warehouse has them in stock..

http://www.entertainmentwarehouse.com.au/

Cheers..
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post #564 of 958 Old 03-24-2010, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortyboy View Post

In as much as I am slapping Peavey over this one I am also slapping all of the other manufacturers of Pro-Audio gear for what looks like a similar failure to pay attention to this sort of thing whilst claiming superthrob reliability from their products.

Of course I could be wrong.....

A test for you Morty: Crest 8001: It's a 24 years old Pro Audio product and has lived a brutal life on the road. The caps are rated for 67 volts and see 67.5 at nominal line. Ripple current and other parameters then were of the same design philosophy I still use today. While the 8001 caps are a different brand, they were designed by the same cap engineer involved in the design of the IPR caps. Google 8001 cap failures and let us know what you find. Then tell us how that squares with your claim of three months life for the IPR.

May I suggest you go to Walmart, buy one of their First Act brand amplifiers and reverse engineer it. Work your way up slowly from there and come back after you have learned enough to pass judgement on others.
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post #565 of 958 Old 03-24-2010, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

I just want an amp that can do 0hz at 120dB That would be totally mind blowing. I hope the caps can keep up.

Ummmm, I've had some prototypes do that actually. The design secret is all in where you drop the scope probe clip.
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post #566 of 958 Old 03-25-2010, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Sickneedhelp View Post

A test for you Morty: Crest 8001: It's a 24 years old Pro Audio product and has lived a brutal life on the road. The caps are rated for 67 volts and see 67.5 at nominal line. Ripple current and other parameters then were of the same design philosophy I still use today. While the 8001 caps are a different brand, they were designed by the same cap engineer involved in the design of the IPR caps. Google 8001 cap failures and let us know what you find. Then tell us how that squares with your claim of three months life for the IPR.

May I suggest you go to Walmart, buy one of their First Act brand amplifiers and reverse engineer it. Work your way up slowly from there and come back after you have learned enough to pass judgement on others.

http://www.abra.co.uk/specs/8001.PDF

Class H
Filter Storage 70,000 μF

http://www.cinetson.org/phpBB3/elect...01-t30213.html



So that will be 4 rails with 17,500uF per rail for a linear amplifier twice as powerful using a linear mains frequency supply with current draw from each capacitor being approximately 25% duty. As opposed to 2 rails with 4000uF per rail each effectively being driven at 100% duty due the the way a class D amplifier behaves.

I do believe that this is commonly refered to as 'comparing apples to oranges'.

Thanks for the added insight though.

Edit

Oh, since

Quote:


They were designed by the same cap engineer involved in the design of the IPR caps

And you now have the tools to give him 'real' data about the waveforms that the devices are seeing perhaps you could do so and get some real answers about their reliability in this application.

If you right click on one of the capacitor waveforms in LTSpice then at the bottom of the pop-up menu there will be an option to View under which you will find FFT. Perform the FFT on the waveform and when it is displayed if you click on File|Export then you can write the data to a text file either as Magnitude/Phase or Real/Imaginary.

Go on...... you know you want to. If you really want to get excited then there's another model,

http://www.overkill.talktalk.net/peavey
http://www.overkill.talktalk.net/peavey/twochanc.asc

That one includes your mains side capacitors so you can also check how things function at low, nominal and high line.
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post #567 of 958 Old 03-25-2010, 02:52 AM
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This thread reminds me of round 3 job interview where you realize in the end
that you don't want to work for your boss



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #568 of 958 Old 03-25-2010, 05:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema mad View Post

The IPR-1600 has been available in Australia for A while now so you should'nt have any trouble finding A supplier..
Sam at Entertainment Warehouse has them in stock..

http://www.entertainmentwarehouse.com.au/

Cheers..

Thanks - I've sent them an email.
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post #569 of 958 Old 03-25-2010, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Mortyboy View Post


'Fortunately' Nippon Chemi-Con have not replied to my questions yet. Perhaps I should start dissing them as well? Fancy designing in components from a manufacturer who does not provide information when it is requested.. It's rather like buying an amplifier from a manufacturer who does not provide information when it is requested.

Perhaps they are just considering things before giving up and calling me a 'DumbAss'.

....

Dear Mortyboy I am certain that even if NCC may think you a DumbAss' they would never call anybody one.

The tangled comments in your post do not direct someone to the correct method to calculate life. If you look at my post #491 that is the correct method to calculate life for a standard capacitor. However for this special capacitor and using actual measured information post #526 with estimate of 126k hours is correct.
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post #570 of 958 Old 03-25-2010, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by AVSBama View Post

Dear Mortyboy I am certain that even if NCC may think you a ‘DumbAss’ they would never call anybody one.

The tangled comments in your post do not direct someone to the correct method to calculate life. If you look at my post #491 that is the correct method to calculate life for a “standard” capacitor. However for this special capacitor and using actual measured information post #526 with estimate of 126k hours is correct.

Indeed. It would not be very professional for an 'employable' person to go about the place calling people DumbAsses...

If NCC are not able to come up with the goods for you then try this one...

http://www.epcos.com/web/generator/W...locale=en.html

http://www.epcos.com/designtools/alcap/main.html

As I've suggested do an FFT of the current waveform in your devices and then, , unfortunately you will have to type things in by hand and.... if you are going to match all the significant frequencies in the plot things are going to get a bit dull.

I haven't got it to work for this 'particular' application, no available solutions, without having to use two 25mm x 50mm devices in parallel per rail. That's going to be something to do with achieving a useful surface area for cooling.

However.... Since Epcos are providing such an on-line tool then it may well be the case that if you ask them nicely they will take a text data file from you and squirt it up their system internally and save you from having to do it yourself.

In the past I have always found Seimens (This division now Epcos) and Philips (This division now BC Components) to be extremely helpful...... Still, I suppose things may have changed, or maybe I have.

Would you like me to try for you?

There...... Done.
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