New Design - Smallest most effecient Sub with Dual Opposed 18's lets build it - AVS Forum
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Old 07-13-2009, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, I'm on a quest....

I want to build the smallest possible Dual Opposed 18" Subs possible
Seaton has the Submersive, and is working on a Submersive 2 with 18" drivers.... excerpt of Submersive 2
Quote:


rough idea for external dimensions are in the vicinity of 20.5" x 28" x 29" tall

I can live with dimensions like that in my room...
I have room for at least 3 enclosures, utilizing 6 drivers, that will be run in series or parallel at 4 ohms to make the most of my wicked amps.

What drivers can I use for this, knowing I have 4 Crest 8002 amps providing me with 4000w bridged @ 4ohms...

Obviously I don't need extreme excursion drivers.... combined excursion will be the key here, and the benefits will be a completely inert cabinet, and I don't need to integrate an onboard amp.

Help me find the perfect drivers that help me achieve my goals, upper bass reproduction is very important here for me...

Warp
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Old 07-13-2009, 09:38 PM
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This is an interesting thread I want to keep track of.

With those dimensions you would probably be around 7 to 7.5 cu ft once you subtract bracing and drivers.

I know the Mal-x would want a bigger cabinet but with all that power you have and an EQ you might get it to work. Maybe add a Bassis to extend the LF. I am sure there are other drivers which should work better in that size enclosure though.

I can't wait to see what others come up with.

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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Old 07-13-2009, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks mjaudio..... I have been wanting for some time to come up with something in Dual Opposed in this size range, and the Mal-X is a great driver, but I can't get this working with those drivers, they need a bit larger box and I can't get to 4ohms with them either.

I know you are a follower of Marks great designs as well... Hoping to find a great alternative, and it certainly helps that I'm not strapped with onboard amp constraints...
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Old 07-13-2009, 09:58 PM
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You say upper bass is what you want. How low does it need to go? You may be a candidate for a pro driver. Theres the other thread going on about JBL2242, 18sounds 18LW1400 and Acoustic Elegance TD18H. They'd all make some pretty awesome subs.

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Even i, the genius, only vaguely understand what i am saying here.
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Old 07-13-2009, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey LHD21, good prominent upper bass response is important to me... But lets be sure that these subs need to be designed to hit the low notes...

I am looking for subs that are just as efficient as the Submersive, but with 18" drivers that can go low... 3 of them in my room would be impressive....
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Old 07-14-2009, 01:37 AM
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Mach 5 IXL 18.2.2. A pair in just under 7.5 ft3 will give you an F3 of 35hz. Xmax with 2000W isn't exceeded until 20hz, of course if you add EQ power handling will drop significantly (6db boost at 20hz will only need 500W for xmax).
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Old 07-14-2009, 03:33 AM
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Dare I say the LMS ultra. Illka's tests were in a ~3.5ft enclosure IIRC

YID DIY
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Old 07-14-2009, 04:16 AM
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I second the lms. If you can find them they will work in that size enclosure, can get very low, and absolutely has the best upper bass reproduction I have heard. You just have to start a house to house search for them.
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Old 07-14-2009, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

Dare I say the LMS ultra. Illka's tests were in a ~3.5ft enclosure IIRC

Thirded.

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Originally Posted by vasyachkin
Even i, the genius, only vaguely understand what i am saying here.
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Old 07-14-2009, 05:40 AM
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With the pretty much no availability of that driver we may need to find warp a different driver. I just looked at some of the soundsplinter stuff and they all like larger enclosures and might not be the cleanest sounding in the upper ranges. I haven't looked to see what it will do, but what about the re xxx? I think it likes a larger box, but with eq it could probably pull it off. It definitely has excursion to spare. The sound quality is just a half step below the lms too.
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Old 07-14-2009, 07:48 AM
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Well lets see. The drivers should be either 2ohm or 8ohm nominal in order to get a final 4 ohm load with a pair and maximize the amplifier power, which when you are stuffing 2 18's in a 7.5 cu ft box you will need power to hit the lows. Other impedences could work but a 4 ohm final load would be best.

LMS 5400 or Ultra is the best driver I know of for the job, but 6 will be hella expensive and they are unavailable. Still this would be #1.

Mal-X GenII could work, but it'll give you an 8ohm nominal load.

Mach5 IXL's might work, but I think you'd be stepping down in performance going from the Mal X's to these.

ED190v2's See above

RE XXX needs way more than 3.5ft per driver. NOT recommended. + WAY expensive.

RLP18D4 Is this available? It could be made to work, but I believe the Mal-X may be a better fit for this kind of thing.

Some of the Pro audio 18's or even 21"s can work in small spaces but they will have a very high F3 around 70hz or more usually, which would require tons of boost in the range that requires excursion they don't have and they are not optomized for <30hz. The exception would be the Worx 18's or TC Beehive style drivers which have a solid 20mm xmax. Maybe the new BMS.

Why only look at 18's Patrick? 4 AE AV15H's model ok in 7 cu ft sealed (you will need a ton of boost though). Under 2 cu ft per driver seems a bit too compressed to me but you could ask John what his thoughts are. You could stuff them in there some how. Maybe you could use 4 AV12's instead? If you aren't dead set on dual opposed you could wait for the new Mal-X 21" and replace all of your 18's with those. Other than that maybe Kevin could work with you on getting some D4 GenII Mal-X 18's.

I'm sure Bosso will weigh in with some good ideas.
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Old 07-14-2009, 08:22 AM
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The LMS5400 would be the best and I think your upgraditus would be solved for a good long time so the expense would be worth it. If you were to order 6 of them then maybe Thilo would be willing to make up a special order for you? If he needs an even bigger order to make a run then hit us all up here at the forum and I am sure there will be some more happy to pick a few as well. I am down for a pair.

Maybe you could hit up Kyle here on the forums and float the idea by him as he is a sympathetic bass head like the rest of us.

I would definitely give it a shot. The only downside I could see is they really like power but then again your internal organs would probably give up before the 6 LMS run out of power

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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Old 07-14-2009, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the list Ricci.... You and I have kinda run through this idea already once before... didn't really take it to the next step though, so I thought I would post this up here and see how things progressed... the obvious issue is the small list of drivers that can work here...

I am pretty sure that Mark will be going to John @ AE to custom 18's for this job...

I'm kinda looking at the project for the next step here... I would like to keep the box as small as possible, but provide some monumental output when called upon, but my goal is still focused on 18's. I think it would be a fun project, and I haven't really seen it been done yet.. so why not give it a shot....

The driver wiring seems to be the key here as you say to get a 4ohm load. I also think efficiency would also be important

I'm going to try to get a hold of John @ AE to see what we can come up with, and hopefully Kyle can weigh in here as well...
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Old 07-14-2009, 08:35 AM
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There's one LMS5400 for sale in the classifieds here (I PM'd with him, he's looking to get $850): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/vbcla...do=ad&id=10811

Good luck finding the other 5
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Old 07-14-2009, 08:37 AM
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I would like to know if there is any further word on the new lms drivers that I have heard that may come out. Release date? New specs? Price? I did read somewhere the price is going to be VERY high but who knows.

I am with ricci in that you shouldn't just limit yourself to 18 inch drivers. With 15's your options really open up and I think you could still edge a submersive if properly designed with a good driver.

One thing should be said if you are planning three dual driver subwoofers. When you get to running reference level with a single driver it gets strained and doesn't sound nearly as good as at lower volumes. When the volume is raised because you have multiple drivers they don't have to work nearly as hard and the sound quality goes up. In doing this you could get something like 6 of the 19ov.2's and get plenty of good sound when they are not being pushed to their limits. Plus the fact that you could probably get all six of them for the price of one lms and power them with just two of your amps.

I would hit up Kyle though. He may be able to get you something together. Maybe.
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

I would like to know if there is any further word on the new lms drivers that I have heard that may come out. Release date? New specs? Price? I did read somewhere the price is going to be VERY high but who knows.

I am with ricci in that you shouldn't just limit yourself to 18 inch drivers. With 15's your options really open up and I think you could still edge a submersive if properly designed with a good driver.

Good question on the new LMS's, but I think futile with the price bracket...

I'm looking at this design with 18's because its a challenge... If I wanted something easy I would go with 15's which has been done again and again... If I went 15's, there are far more options and it wouldn't be that difficult now would it....

Maybe I'm trying to be a PIA just like Vas.... heheheh
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Maybe I'm trying to be a PIA just like Vas.... heheheh

Please don't turn to the darkside, we can't handle 2 of you

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Please don't turn to the darkside, we can't handle 2 of you

They should join forces, and together, they could be more powerful than Kyle himself! Two of Vas's drivers in Warp's tiny enclosures......yessss....I have foreseen it........
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Old 07-14-2009, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Fatawan View Post

They should join forces, and together, they could be more powerful than Kyle himself! Two of Vas's drivers in Warp's tiny enclosures......yessss....I have foreseen it........

Vas drivers? I never knew you could make a driver out of hot air

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Old 07-14-2009, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Well lets see.

Why only look at 18's Patrick? 4 AE AV15H's model ok in 7 cu ft sealed (you will need a ton of boost though). Under 2 cu ft per driver seems a bit too compressed to me but you could ask John what his thoughts are.

I'm sure Bosso will weigh in with some good ideas.

Took the words right outta my mouth.

This is the way to go, no doubt. 22"X22"x28", adding top plate and bottom plate, 33" high O.A.

Fire one up, one down, one front and one back (which can be turned 90 degrees to become one left/one right).

It will not need a ton of boost. It will be clean like you've never heard. It will do mid bass like you've never heard from a sub. It will virtually eliminate extraneous color from coupled vibration transmissions. Most importantly, its sensitivity will be 97dB 1W/1M vs, for example, 2X MX at 91dB. That's 1KW vs 4KW, which means the 3KW difference is available for boost-only transients down low.

6dB is perfectly fine in large room, high playback level apps. 9dB boost is all you'll need with proper room loading and moderately high playback levels.

Two of these will seriously break balls.

(That would be 8X15", with which I have some limited experience).

Bosso
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Old 07-14-2009, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

I am pretty sure that Mark will be going to John @ AE to custom 18's for this job...

Hey Patrick,

I have long ago posted about what I had eyed for a SubMersive XL, which is what you are describing, which was put on the shelf for some newer designs evolving from the Terraform and similar work which will be called the SubMersive 2, which is different from what you are describing in function, but would look very similar outwardly.

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Old 07-14-2009, 11:36 AM
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Two sealed boxes each with 4 AV15-X drivers. That's such a great idea! I wish I had thought of it earlier.

/me glances at an old Unibox model.



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Old 07-14-2009, 12:10 PM
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Quote:


Two sealed boxes each with 4 AV15-X drivers.

Damn, this thread has me thinking about that type of box!

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Old 07-14-2009, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Hey Patrick,

I have long ago posted about what I had eyed for a SubMersive XL, which is what you are describing, which was put on the shelf for some newer designs evolving from the Terraform and similar work which will be called the SubMersive 2, which is different from what you are describing in function, but would look very similar outwardly.

Hey Mark, nice of you to pop in....

I have been eyeing this design for a while, obviously knowing what the Submersive offers in performance, just taking it to the next level... I think it would be a fun design and offer great possible performance. Its not like Im starving for bass at this point, but we all have to aim for the skies for something better, this is mine...
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Old 07-14-2009, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Two sealed boxes each with 4 AV15-X drivers. That's such a great idea! I wish I had thought of it earlier.

/me glances at an old Unibox model.




I already had the driver in Unibox and a quad of them has some incredible potential, even if you do need to EQ. Each would be capable of 120dB @ 20Hz half space by the time you hit Xmax. Qt=0.7 got 240L for it, so not large by some standards either. The 100dB sensitivity is nice too.
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Old 07-14-2009, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

OK, I'm on a quest....

I want to build the smallest possible Dual Opposed 18" Subs possible
Seaton has the Submersive, and is working on a Submersive 2 with 18" drivers.... excerpt of Submersive 2
I can live with dimensions like that in my room...
I have room for at least 3 enclosures, utilizing 6 drivers, that will be run in series or parallel at 4 ohms to make the most of my wicked amps.

What drivers can I use for this, knowing I have 4 Crest 8002 amps providing me with 4000w bridged @ 4ohms...

Obviously I don't need extreme excursion drivers.... combined excursion will be the key here, and the benefits will be a completely inert cabinet, and I don't need to integrate an onboard amp.

Help me find the perfect drivers that help me achieve my goals, upper bass reproduction is very important here for me...

Warp

how about some bms 18n850's. they work well in smaller sized enclosures.
sealed, 4-5 cubic footers per driver places the impedance peak at about 50hz. this will minimize current requirements from your amp for most music applications. pretty low qes (good magnetic damping) and high power handling (lower power compression) are other benefits. bms conservatively rates xmax, so add a bit for comparability.

if you want totally sick upper mid-bass punch, drop a couple bms 15s430's in 5 cubic footer enclosures...one sub in each corner. for some though, these are a little too tight. even though most folks say they want tight subs, sometimes a little flab, or fatness, is subjectively better.

by the way, i think you flamed me pretty hard in the past when i suggested your mains weren't up to the task of producing the kind of mid-upper bass spl for which you were looking.

can we be friends now? ;-)

on second thought, with all your maelstroms and the massive power that you have behind them, maybe all you need is a pair of ported, high efficiency, 15"s to round out your upper bass. how about placing a ported bms 15s430 (or jbl 2226h, or equivalent) alongside each of your mains.

3 cubic footers, tuned to 40-45hz, with a couple simple amps (ep2500/4000s), should blast you up into the 130's db, from around 50hz up. cross to your sick subs around 50hz or so and you should have no regrets...and no hearing...lol.

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Old 07-14-2009, 03:49 PM
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"the Mal-X is a great driver, but I can't get this working with those drivers, they need a bit larger box "

I question what not working means; with the box volume limitation you've imposed, most any pair of 18's will be power/thermal limited and within a dB or two of the same output, per HIL (Hoffman's Iron Law).

But model some of the alternatives and see for yourself.

bosso,

"Most importantly, its sensitivity will be 97dB 1W/1M vs, for example, 2X MX at 91dB. That's 1KW vs 4KW, which means the 3KW difference is available for boost-only transients down low."

The sensitivity increase only holds for upper freq; every driver added to the same size box effectively reduces volume available per driver, raises Fb, and reduces low bass efficiency - HIL again.

I'd be partial to the AE TD18 for midbass punch and high power handling.

Noah
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Old 07-14-2009, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

how about some bms 18n850's. they work well in smaller sized enclosures.
sealed, 4-5 cubic footers per driver places the impedance peak at about 50hz. this will minimize current requirements from your amp for most music applications. pretty low qes (good magnetic damping) and high power handling (lower power compression) are other benefits. bms conservatively rates xmax, so add a bit for comparability.

LTD02, those look like they may just have the goods here !! You Da Man !!!! 8ohm drivers Neo magnets.. this is not the first time I have seen you suggest these drivers... How do they handle things down low below 20hz....?

Also looking at the 18n850v2 & 18n860 Thoughts?

Quote:


if you want totally sick upper mid-bass punch, drop a couple bms 15s430's in 5 cubic footer enclosures...one sub in each corner. for some though, these are a little too tight. even though most folks say they want tight subs, sometimes a little flab, or fatness, is subjectively better.

I don't really have the room or the need for such criteria, but I agree, I do like a touch flabbiness... brings on the thickness...


Quote:


by the way, i think you flamed me pretty hard in the past when i suggested your mains weren't up to the task of producing the kind of mid-upper bass spl for which you were looking.

can we be friends now? ;-)

Maybe I was a bit overzealous on that flaming - I don't remember it being that harsh , but I am not unhappy with the punch I get from my Studio 100's... as it sits - I cross them over at 110 or 120hz to the Mal-X's so the Mal's are handling the duties in that dept for the most part anyways... Sorry if I came off as a d!ckhead...

Quote:


on second thought, with all your maelstroms and the massive power that you have behind them, maybe all you need is a pair of ported, high efficiency, 15"s to round out your upper bass. how about placing a ported bms 15s430 (or jbl 2226h, or equivalent) alongside each of your mains.

3 cubic footers, tuned to 40-45hz, with a couple simple amps (ep2500/4000s), should blast you up into the 130's db, from around 50hz up. cross to your sick subs around 50hz or so and you should have no regrets...and no hearing...lol.

I really don't have the room for something like that in my room without it getting totally cluttered, which is one of the reasons I am looking to go as small as possible, spread out around the room...

Thanks for the suggestion and direction here...
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Old 07-14-2009, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"the Mal-X is a great driver, but I can't get this working with those drivers, they need a bit larger box "

I question what not working means; with the box volume limitation you've imposed, most any pair of 18's will be power/thermal limited and within a dB or two of the same output, per HIL (Hoffman's Iron Law).

But model some of the alternatives and see for yourself.

bosso,

"Most importantly, its sensitivity will be 97dB 1W/1M vs, for example, 2X MX at 91dB. That's 1KW vs 4KW, which means the 3KW difference is available for boost-only transients down low."

The sensitivity increase only holds for upper freq; every driver added to the same size box effectively reduces volume available per driver, raises Fb, and reduces low bass efficiency - HIL again.

I'd be partial to the AE TD18 for midbass punch and high power handling.

What is the coil arrangement you come up with for dual opposed Mal-X's to get me at 4ohm load?

What is the coil arrangement for the TD18, I can't seem to find it...
Not against it, as I stated, looking for options here, and what works best for my requirements...
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Old 07-14-2009, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Took the words right outta my mouth.

This is the way to go, no doubt. 22"X22"x28", adding top plate and bottom plate, 33" high O.A.

Fire one up, one down, one front and one back (which can be turned 90 degrees to become one left/one right).

It will not need a ton of boost. It will be clean like you've never heard. It will do mid bass like you've never heard from a sub. It will virtually eliminate extraneous color from coupled vibration transmissions. Most importantly, its sensitivity will be 97dB 1W/1M vs, for example, 2X MX at 91dB. That's 1KW vs 4KW, which means the 3KW difference is available for boost-only transients down low.

6dB is perfectly fine in large room, high playback level apps. 9dB boost is all you'll need with proper room loading and moderately high playback levels.

Two of these will seriously break balls.

(That would be 8X15", with which I have some limited experience).

Bosso

Bosso, why stop at 4 x 15s per cabinet? have 1 woofer on each face of the box, 6 x 15"?
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