Anyone build Wayne Parham's Pi-4 speakers? Impressions? - Page 4 - AVS Forum

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Scott Simonian's Avatar Scott Simonian
12:15 AM Liked: 1033
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02-22-2010 | Posts: 14,320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Haven't checked in this thread lately. Scott I'm long on planning but falling short on execution with my HT2.0 upgrade. Still planning on the Pi4s. Just so you know there was a studio that went with a trio. Small thread about it over on Wayne's place. The absence of the port on the center is cosmetic and does alter the response. That is something I wouldn't want to do because mine will be hidden behind the screen.



Glad to see you drop by to visit your old thread. The process has been pretty slow for me as well. I noticed your thread on Wayne's forum so I hoped the discussion could continue here as well. I did see that thread about that studio but it wasn't the same as what you and I are doing and there has been little talk regarding that installation. Meh. You and I have similar goals here. Although I will probably go all sealed cause I don't really need them to be vented. There will always be a subwoofer working with them in my system.

Please keep us updated if you go ahead with this build.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"It will also be the most expensive change to it ever. Hope I am happy with the results."

nothing adds to the excitement like big bass, so i wouldn't expect that kind of effect. however, given those girly mains you have now, your system has no dynamics. kind of like pizza without the sauce. wtf? ;-)

Heheh...oddly enough, these floorstanders are larger and more bass capable than a good majority of HT speaker owners. I need much more dynamics than these can do. I am tough to please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

you know, dominos has supposedly upgraded all its ingredients. might be time to give them another shot. 2 two-topping pizzas for 6 bucks each. not sure if the econopizza is up to the quality of the econowaves, but it might be worth $12. ;-) i gave up on dominos pizza years ago, but i'm half tempted to give their new stuff a try.

I've thought about giving them a chance but all the local high quality pizza places are lowering their prices too. Haha!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

are you dead set on a passive design or have you considered going active?

Yes. I've been looking into this build all year. It wasn't up until the past few months that I decided it will be for the best to keep it passive if possible. You can look back to page one of this very thread and see it wasn't very long ago I was definitely going active. As much as I would like to go active I can't justify the extra expense it would require. $300 for a DCX and over $1,000 for amps just puts the whole build out of reach. Plus, I recently bought a very high quality AVR that has a very good amp section that I would like to use. Also, not using a DCX keeps an extra A-D/D-A conversion out of the signal. I really don't need the flexibility of an external digital x-over for my mains if I have a well designed passive network I can use. Sometime down the road I can upgrade to bigger amps when I see the need and have the funds.
LTD02's Avatar LTD02
07:15 AM Liked: 1170
post #92 of 176
02-22-2010 | Posts: 16,852
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i hear you about the amp. it's tough to throw away power. you could always bi amp by separating the high and low sides and run them with one channel each if your receiver allows for that. it would probably be hard to tell the difference though. our ears just don't seem to pick up on clipping as readily as our eyes. i've tested this. increasing the amount of clipping until i thought that i could hear it and it was a surprisingly large amount.

the world is a very weird place. as i wrote my reply, the ad being displayed...



nk.
LL
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar BIGmouthinDC
09:55 AM Liked: 738
post #93 of 176
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Hey! I didn't sign a marketing agreement with Domino's for space in my thread, If they want to advertise I want in on the action.
penngray's Avatar penngray
10:09 AM Liked: 30
post #94 of 176
02-22-2010 | Posts: 26,779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Hey! I didn't sign a marketing agreement with Domino's for space in my thread, If they want to advertise I want in on the action.

Kewl idea

Advertising in posts...companies should do it

couple pennies per post...I might have some $$ to buy new drivers
ZilchLab's Avatar ZilchLab
12:00 PM Liked: 11
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02-22-2010 | Posts: 944
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A couple of pennies per view, and I'd be breaking even, just about....
LTD02's Avatar LTD02
12:02 PM Liked: 1170
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scott and i were talking about pizzas in some other thread. it was just really strange, as i can't recall ever having seen one pizza ad around here...then we were talking pizza and it popped up. too bad dominos isn't into sponsoring 4pi builds. then again, scott might prefer sponsorship from round table pizza for his 4 'pizza' pis. ;-)
Scott Simonian's Avatar Scott Simonian
12:47 PM Liked: 1033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

then again, scott might prefer sponsoship from round table pizza for his 4 'pizza' pis. ;-)

Mega roflz!!

Gah!!! Now I am seeing those Domino ads.

*shudders*

Well... I guess it's time to improvise.

Round Table Pizza.... Round Table Pizza ..... Round Table Pizza!!!

*suddenly showered with coupons*


LTD02's Avatar LTD02
03:25 PM Liked: 1170
post #98 of 176
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"Gah!!! Now I am seeing those Domino ads."

i suppose i hexed the whole damn thread. ack. :-( 4pi's are one of the best builds going. i couldn't find any round table pizza over here on the east coast. i once heard one of those really 'italian' types from new york say that the secret to their great crust was the mineral content in the water. makes some sense to me. kind of like the 4pi's, to the untrained eye, all pizza looks the same. ;-)
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar BIGmouthinDC
06:34 AM Liked: 738
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

kind of like the 4pi's, to the untrained eye,

Could you expand your thought? I am certainly untrained with respect to speaker design.
LTD02's Avatar LTD02
07:04 AM Liked: 1170
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"Could you expand your thought? I am certainly untrained with respect to speaker design."

to some folks, 4pi's just look like a crappy p.a. speaker. however, with the jbl/b&c drivers, it is a very hi-fi rig. the 2226h has high sensitivity, low distortion, low power compression, etc. the horn is a real sleeper. it is 90x40 controlled directivity, which is pretty much perfect for a home environment. no nasties in the throat. assymetric horn keeps the center to center spacing between the two drivers to a minimum. wayne has done a good job on the crossover and the woofer matches nicely to the horn. both are down about 6db through the crossover region, which is perfect. the 4pi design is not as sensitive to room as many traditional hi-fi designs. it has a lot going for it. wayne really should have that kind of information on his website. i don't mind being a little bit of a fanboy for the 4pi, because it is a good design, a good value, and wayne has contributed a lot to diy. not so much around here, but on other boards.
penngray's Avatar penngray
07:09 AM Liked: 30
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Quote:


to some folks, 4pi's just look like a crappy p.a. speaker

I think this is the biggest draw back to buying them. The kits are a great choice though and I might buy some and build nice cabinets to compare against mine.


I wonder if I can use my QSC waveguide with Wayne's CD/Woofer/crossover.
stgdz's Avatar stgdz
07:34 AM Liked: 14
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penn are you going to update your waveguide thread? You have three or four reserved slots there
LTD02's Avatar LTD02
07:35 AM Liked: 1170
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penn, yours are going to be hard to beat. as you know, the copper plated pole in the td series pulls inductance down into the basement. once everything else is right, that seems to be the icing on the cake. if i recall, wayne was experimenting or offering td drivers as an upgrade, so you would probably be losing ground from where you are. are you enjoying your "m5's"?
penngray's Avatar penngray
07:49 AM Liked: 30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stgdz View Post

penn are you going to update your waveguide thread? You have three or four reserved slots there

yes, I really wanted to get some measurements posted before I did it and I have been looking for my build pictures. I had two servers blow several weeks ago (one power supply, one hard drive) and Im still recovering from backups

Outside of that Im just slow sometimes

I have all build pics now so I will atleast post those.

Measurements should happen this afternoon but I have to figure out how to use HOLMimpulse first.
penngray's Avatar penngray
07:51 AM Liked: 30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

penn, yours are going to be hard to beat. as you know, the copper plated pole in the td series pulls inductance down into the basement. once everything else is right, that seems to be the icing on the cake. if i recall, wayne was experimenting or offering td drivers as an upgrade, so you would probably be losing ground from where you are. are you enjoying your "m5's"?

I see your point. Thanks!

btw, I have to ask what's "m5" ? Sorry Im drawing a blank
LTD02's Avatar LTD02
07:56 AM Liked: 1170
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over in your build thread, i mentioned that your speakers looked like the intersection of performance and luxury, so i named them m5's. ;-)
michanecash's Avatar michanecash
07:58 AM Liked: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

Could you expand your thought? I am certainly untrained with respect to speaker design.

Unrelated to this topic. Didnt you post about a contractor who up and left last year without completing his work? How did that work out for you?
penngray's Avatar penngray
08:39 AM Liked: 30
post #108 of 176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

over in your build thread, i mentioned that your speakers looked like the intersection of performance and luxury, so i named them m5's. ;-)

Very kewl!! THANKS
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar BIGmouthinDC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michanecash View Post

Unrelated to this topic. Didnt you post about a contractor who up and left last year without completing his work? How did that work out for you?

I have a selective memory of that thread which I contributed to but it wasn't my problem. Basically the contractor was having significant personal problems (wife left him, financial) and told the guy he didn't think he would be able to resolve the unfinished items. It sounded like a real mess with the possibility that the subs weren't paid by the contractor.
michanecash's Avatar michanecash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

I have a selective memory of that thread which I contributed to but it wasn't my problem. Basically the contractor was having significant personal problems (wife left him, financial) and told the guy he didn't think he would be able to resolve the unfinished items. It sounded like a real mess with the possibility that the subs weren't paid by the contractor.

sorry I thought that was your thread. Yeah, it sounded like a bad situation to be in.
Scott Simonian's Avatar Scott Simonian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Could you expand your thought? I am certainly untrained with respect to speaker design."

to some folks, 4pi's just look like a crappy p.a. speaker. however, with the jbl/b&c drivers, it is a very hi-fi rig. the 2226h has high sensitivity, low distortion, low power compression, etc. the horn is a real sleeper. it is 90x40 controlled directivity, which is pretty much perfect for a home environment. no nasties in the throat. assymetric horn keeps the center to center spacing between the two drivers to a minimum. wayne has done a good job on the crossover and the woofer matches nicely to the horn. both are down about 6db through the crossover region, which is perfect. the 4pi design is not as sensitive to room as many traditional hi-fi designs. it has a lot going for it. wayne really should have that kind of information on his website. i don't mind being a little bit of a fanboy for the 4pi, because it is a good design, a good value, and wayne has contributed a lot to diy. not so much around here, but on other boards.

Yup. The design is very well balanced. Other than the plain looks the only other issue is the price. You get what you paid for which happens to be high quality stuff and a good crossover design.

Wayne seems pretty content about keeping the 2226H in his 15" woofer bases systems, at the moment. The TD12S is offered for the kits that use the 12". He has said in a few sections on his site that the JBL has good control over inductance linearity and for a 15" it has exceptional midrange. Too be honest, I was hoping this new build would use TD15M's but since I am not going active I will be happy to use the JBL. If there were two really nice 15's for bass and midrange, it's these two.
LTD02's Avatar LTD02
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just a quick clarification. when i said -6db through the crossover region, i meant at 45 degrees off axis. the woofer begins to "beam" at the same frequency where the horn begins to lose directivity...perfect match. the frequency response on axis is amazingly flat for this kind of speaker. i think this is four pi in action:



+/- 1.5db through the midrange and then a slightly rolled off top end. this is not a defect, but a design choice. most folks prefer the sound of a slightly rolled off top end.

scott, wayne is a diy guy at heart, so you can build as much or as little as you want. he sells crossover boards, built crossovers to any spec you want, speaker kits, all the way up to fully finished speakers. heck, i bet that he'd even help you build something that isn't part of his standard lineup.

the inductance thing still has me confused. the big daddy is getting it linear, but once it is linear, is not lower better? janowitz insists this is the case and i am inclined to believe him, but maybe it is just the difference between a 98% speaker and a 99% speaker. geddes doesn't use low inductance speakers in his summas and folks don't report him leaving anything on the table.
Scott Simonian's Avatar Scott Simonian
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I would certainly give the edge to the AE speaker with a lower total inductance. It isn't thoroughly documented but I would bet that it is even more "linear" in inductance than the JBL as well. The JBL is a top notch performer in its own right though. No slouch. Paired up with the B&C and with his awesome crossover you get that FR you posted. How friggin' nice is that?!? This is why I settled on his design over going active and trying this out on my own. I might have got close on my own but why bother when I can get a proven design for a little extra?

LTD02, if you skim through the past pages on his forum, you will find a thread by me asking if he would do a Pi4 with the TD15M or if it would work with his crossover. In short, his answer was "maybe". I would believe that the TD15M might not even need as many components in it's own version of the crossover thanks to the ultra low, ultra flat impedance. The rise isn't until about 10khz on that sucker. The specs between the 2226H and the TD15M are so close it isn't funny. Basically the real difference between the two are the lower inductance 'on paper' with the TD and it's use of a phase plug instead of a regular ol' dust cap on the JBL.
Wrager's Avatar Wrager
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I love the specs on the Pi4's. I already use JBL MRX512's for LCR. Do you think Wayne's speakers would be an upgrade?
mjg100's Avatar mjg100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

I have a selective memory of that thread which I contributed to but it wasn't my problem. Basically the contractor was having significant personal problems (wife left him, financial) and told the guy he didn't think he would be able to resolve the unfinished items. It sounded like a real mess with the possibility that the subs weren't paid by the contractor.

That sucks because the owner is then held responsible. You always need to talk to your subcontractors and make sure that they are getting paid. Keep in mind though that the general contractor may be holding some money to make sure that the sub is paying his suppliers, because that can come back on the general contractor. One way around this is to pay by dual check and have the check listed for what it goes to. Also getting a release for each payment made to the contractors that states that his suppliers have been paid.

This is one of the things that is so scary right now. Subcontractors and general contractors are bidding stuff so cheap that at some point someone is going to be left holding the bag.
nichol1997's Avatar nichol1997
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02-28-2010 | Posts: 262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I already have the JBL 2226, Eminence horns, and the B&C compression drivers. Just waiting for the 2 feet of snow in my backyard to melt so that I can start cutting wood."

nice. you might need to modify that great looking piece of furniture that you just completed depending on the path you choose. ;-)

I will be using the Pi 4s in a different room until I get around to finishing my theater.
LTD02's Avatar LTD02
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03-14-2010 | Posts: 16,852
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i missed your post nichol.

has your snow melted yet? how do you like them?
nichol1997's Avatar nichol1997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i missed your post nichol.

has your snow melted yet? how do you like them?

Snow has melted but I am short on time. Hopefully I can start in the next few weeks and when I do, I will create a build thread here.
LTD02's Avatar LTD02
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"Snow has melted but I am short on time. Hopefully I can start in the next few weeks and when I do, I will create a build thread here."

oh, that's great. you have given very honest reviews on everything that you have built so far, so i am looking forward to your build thread and comments.
BIGmouthinDC's Avatar BIGmouthinDC
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Well it took a bit of time but I did get them done. Now I need to get them up behind my screen. I did document a build thread in the PI speaker forum if anyone wants an inside look.



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