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post #241 of 603 Old 09-18-2009, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Can we all just move on from the Life and Fights of Earl Geddes please? Plenty of other threads for that, and he may even answer back in a couple tehm.

LTD02> I've posted plenty of off axis measurements of teh QSC horn. What are you looking for?

~Brandon


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post #242 of 603 Old 09-18-2009, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Why should he? The last thread regarding the JBL test turned out to be a nightmare for Geddes (IMO), not because of the results but because of the debates that happened afterwards

Which thread was that?

YID DIY
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post #243 of 603 Old 09-18-2009, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

Which thread was that?

>>>> It's over at DIY Audio <<<<

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post #244 of 603 Old 09-18-2009, 07:44 PM
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>>>> It's over at DIY Audio <<<<

Holy crap!! 157 pages!?

side note, I don't know if I've ever posted over there.

Thanks Dan.

YID DIY
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post #245 of 603 Old 09-20-2009, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augerpro View Post

Yeah I'm currently working on the rearmount with roundover, but I really think the better way is with the woofer surface mounted like in my original. The response is noticeably smoother in the crossover region, on and off axis.

Roundover may clean that up.

JBL does it in LSR series routinely....

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post #246 of 603 Old 09-20-2009, 03:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm hoping so. For aesthetic reasons I'd much rather keep the cabinet layout I have now, but with the woofer rear mounted and with a nice roundover. Looks much better than having the horn on some funky pedestal, especially a 1 1/2" tall one. Although I suppose I could combine methods and recess the woofer 3/4" to 1" and make the horn spacer 3/4" so the baffle wouldn't look goofy. Hopefully the roundover does the trick, but I tend to be a perfectionist and find the easy way is almost never the right way.

How deep does JBL mount the driver in the product you mention? And you have seen actual measurements confirming the response?

I think the active version is close to done (using the original cabinets), with maybe some minor tweaks after actual listening. The modeled response is excellent and right now I'm just focusing on pulling off the same thing with the passive version.

Then maybe play around with other drivers this winter, some cheaper and some more expensive.

~Brandon


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post #247 of 603 Old 09-20-2009, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augerpro View Post

How deep does JBL mount the driver in the product you mention? And you have seen actual measurements confirming the response?

Deeper'n flush for sure:

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/suppor...=238&doctype=3

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/Genera...px?FId=6&MId=5

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/Genera...px?FId=7&MId=5

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/Genera...x?FId=73&MId=5

Take your machinist's and speed scales into Guitar Center.

David Smith wasn't too "proud" to punch the butt-cheek Biradials 1" forward in 4430....

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post #248 of 603 Old 09-20-2009, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I thought we have all the QSC horn measurements?

we all get lost from time to time.

can you point me to them?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #249 of 603 Old 09-20-2009, 02:01 PM
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post #250 of 603 Old 09-21-2009, 06:15 AM
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Brandon, are you going to RMAF? Maybe with your new speakers?

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post #251 of 603 Old 09-21-2009, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll be visiting RMAF on Sunday and bringing my speakers to a GTG afterward. Why?

~Brandon


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post #252 of 603 Old 09-21-2009, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by augerpro View Post

I'll be visiting RMAF on Sunday and bringing my speakers to a GTG afterward. Why?

Just curious if others will get to experience them. I think you are doing something great!

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post #253 of 603 Old 09-21-2009, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the complement! The active version looks good for sure, but I haven't been able to get anything done for the passive version for a good week. That was what I planned on bringing to Tom's, but I may have to see how easily we can insert the DCX into his system if push comes to shove. I'd pretty much have to finish a draft crossover in teh next couple days so I could have parts in time for the GTG. That's not looking like it's gonna happen. Work work work until the end of October

~Brandon


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post #254 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 10:58 AM
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Nice job Brandon. Looks great.

Have you had a chance to listen to them yet? Did the dcx let you use two hp/lp?
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post #255 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I won't have a chance to hear them until next sunday at the RMAF gtg. I work everyday this week, 12 hours a day.

Far as I can tell I can only use one HP/LP per output, with as many shelves or PEQs as I have memory resources for. So have I had to use a PEQ with both the HP and LP to help shape the roll off. This is with the current 1.16 firmware.

~Brandon


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post #256 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 01:10 PM
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Don't know if you subscribe to Wayne's HF comp approach, but Jack's got DE250/QSC running on the eWave version of that, which might "do" in a pinch....

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post #257 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZilchLab View Post

Don't know if you subscribe to Wayne's HF comp approach, but Jack's got DE250/QSC running on the eWave version of that, which might "do" in a pinch....

IF Jack has it running with something so simple what is Augerpro doing that is so different and what is the important of Augerpro's phase and CTC issues?

Did Jack do something with the CTC stuff?

Hey Augerpro, maybe this is the 90% Im talking about

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post #258 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZilchLab View Post

Don't know if you subscribe to Wayne's HF comp approach,

Bypassing a resistor around a cap to shape response HAD to have been around long before the time Wayne is taking credit for. Heck I thought of it on my own as the drooping response struck me as the mirror image of baffle step, for which the textbook correction is a coil bypassed by a resistor. When I first got into this hobby using bypass resistors to shape response seemed like a standard technique by people who had never heard of Wayne. But enough of that.

I check in with the Ewave thread to see if there any issues with the QSC since I don't have time to do much research of my own at present. I would like to see more measurements, maybe some polars when you get a chance.

Penn the phase issues I had probably aren't a real big deal to some, like I said, I like things just so. Really it's not a huge deal to me either, just unexpected and requiring close attention to correct "properly." Some of it (about 1") was due to a combination of a slight backwards tilt to my new stand and the design axis used by the mic. The two combined to magnify the difference. I corrected the tilt and raised the design axis to be 3" below the tweeter center. I could cheat and raise the design axis even higher, as the relative distance of each driver to the mic would then get closer and make the plots prettier. But I like to measure things "worst case" with no smoothing or tricks. Everything is looking more workable now, but does still require some close attention and tweaking to get the crossover where I want it. Funny thing is because you will see more detailed info on these it will probably work against its popularity. People will see the dip around the crossover far off axis and think "oh that's no good", and probably build some other design with a single on axis response posted and telling themselves it is probably better off axis. Ignorance is bliss. But I plan to show these in as realistic a light as possible. I know that other designers out there are looking at the plots I posted I thought "hmmm...that's pretty nice". They'll know just how hard it is to get response like that so far off axis.

I think Jack in the Ewave thread is sliding the horn forward so the crossover is easier. The horn of course is somewhat hanging in front of the woofer, not sure if this a big deal or not, but I've chosen to go a different direction and mount everything on a flat baffle. Probably need some measurements to really see just how well the QSC Ewave is doing since so far it's only been anecdotal listening verifying the success of the crossover.

~Brandon


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post #259 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by augerpro View Post

Funny thing is because you will see more detailed info on these it will probably work against its popularity. People will see the dip around the crossover far off axis and think "oh that's no good", and probably build some other design with a single on axis response posted and telling themselves it is probably better off axis. Ignorance is bliss. But I plan to show these in as realistic a light as possible.

Don't sweat it, Brandon. If they don't get it that's their problem. The whole point of these boards is to share knowledge and you're showing how the big boys do it.

It all seems pretty basic to the HTG crowd now but I remember the first time, years ago, when I saw a JonMarsh crossover and read his description of what he did and why to get there. My f---ing jaw hit the floor as I thought 'oh yeah why didn't I think of all that.'

Dennis H
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post #260 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Don't sweat it, Brandon. If they don't get it that's their problem.

Oh it doesn't bother me any. I'm in no competition. There are a lot of paths to high quality sound I think, and I don't really push any which way as long as the methodology is solid. This is a hobby and a lot us take it way too seriously. And I don't mean the little arguments here but the downright nastiness at some of the other forums. As polarized as some of the others are you certainly would never see a high effeciency PA design and a tiny Bose type system from the same designer! And I have an open baffle and more conventional 3 way in the back of head. So I hope I don't come off as too dogmatic.

~Brandon


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post #261 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

IF Jack has it running with something so simple what is Augerpro doing that is so different and what is the important of Augerpro's phase and CTC issues?

Did Jack do something with the CTC stuff?


- Jack & Zilch are masters of the "Kludge-Up" / there are some things to be learned by employing this very practical approach .

- Here's one such example ; Jack has used a Behringer CX 3400 crossover ( LR24 ) set to around 1.6K ( with the CD horn compensation engaged ) to determine if their basic components can be made to match up throughout the crossover area ( at least on-axis ) .

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Originally Posted by Jack Gifford View Post

Time Delay Measurments

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One cabinet baffle hadn't been ruined by me yet, and a Dayton DC 300 was attached to the inside with wood screws. The assembled and tuned (30 Hz) cabinet was then tested using the CX 3400. The CD compensation was engaged. No woofer Zobel has been installed yet.

Picture 1 shows the unit being tested.




Picture 2 is a panoramic FR of the unit hooked in the normal configuration, with the top FR being with no woofer time delay. The bottom FR is with the HF phase reversed. Note the large dip at the xover frequency. Adding any time delay at all caused the dip to decrease. Adding .15 m sec delay caused the FR to flatten again.



Picture 3 is a panoramic FR, with the top FR being normal configuration, with no woofer time delay. The bottom FR is with the time delay increased to about .15 msec, which causes the dip to peak.




Seems to me that the present mounting, with the woofer on the back surface of the baffle, and waveguide mounted on the front surface of the baffle is pretty near correct. When I build the new baffles then, the woofer will be recessed the depth of the waveguide edges into the new mounting surface behind the baffle, and the waveguide will be mounted flush with the front surface of the baffle. This will keep the spacing of .75 inches between the front of the woofer and the back of the waveguide.

I have not spent as much time as necessary to fully evaluate the woofers mid/bass response, but have not noticed any warts. I think it will be a nice combo with the DE 250, and QSC waveguide, in a $64 cabinet. More Keepers?


- It's quite obvious ( at least with LR24 slopes ) that these components combine very well through the crossover region ( & with no offset delay necessary from the crossover / which is a bonus for the passive network designer ) .

- Econowaves' challenge is to now take this important knowledge ( that the components do blend with a basic baffleboard offset ) and find a way to get their preferred 2-pole network to perform as well .
- Skywaves' next 3 pics show it's not so simple .

Quote:


1: No zobel, waveguide 1.5" forward



Quote:


2: No Zobel, against baffle.



Quote:


3: Zobel (8 Ohm/20uF, all that I have), 1.5 inches forward.



- Their task will be that much harder if they choose to maintain absolute polarity for their speaker system ( which is something their last econowave ignored ) .


>< cheers
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post #262 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

It all seems pretty basic to the HTG crowd now but I remember the first time, years ago, when I saw a JonMarsh crossover and read his description of what he did and why to get there. My f---ing jaw hit the floor as I thought 'oh yeah why didn't I think of all that.'

Yeah I can't wait to hear his Ardents next weekend. The NeoD was a big inspiration for me, and now I have a taste for low order slopes and small mids. The Accuton 3" mid is something I'd like to use too, so it will be interesting to see how it sounds.

~Brandon


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post #263 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 03:33 PM
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There is considerably more to Wayne's topology than a bypassed cap. Most importantly, he has provided a full exposition of the complete design approach on his website.

Jack has rear-mounted the driver, as most all of us are doing with the QSC waveguide, but not offset it quite as far as you, more like 1", as his waveguide is not yet flush mounted. It's me, Russell, and Skywave who are still hanging the waveguide over the edge....

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post #264 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Did Jack do something with the CTC stuff?

The $64 PE KD Trapezoid cabinet kit comes with the woofer hole already cut out, and the QSC waveguide butts right up to the edge of it, which snugs up the CTC a bit. That also virtually mandates rear-mounting a 12" driver, though I am trying something else with a 10". Another member calculated the height of the vertical forward lobe at 39.5° for the QSC vs. 48° for the "standard" eWaveguide with flange to flange mounting. Jack measured the lobe with QSC to be ~40° using the method shown in Wayne's video....

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post #265 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ZilchLab View Post

There is considerably more to Wayne's topology than a bypassed cap. Most importantly, he has provided a full exposition of the complete design approach on his website.

I don't have any beef to pick with Wayne but his stuff is XO-101. Brandon's doing grad-school stuff. Both Wayne and Earl G are fairly ignorant of what's going on out there in the XO world with all the cool, cheap (or free) software you can get these days. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't toot your own horn as an 'XO expert.'

Dennis H
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post #266 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 04:25 PM
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I don't have any beef to pick with Wayne but his stuff is XO-101.

Wayne TEACHES "XO-101," actually, and the cited documentation is the instruction materials for that class.

I am merely suggesting that if Brandon wants a quick passive to demonstrate, others are at the "listenable" stage in developing one for QSC/DE250....

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post #267 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ZilchLab View Post

if Brandon wants a quick passive to demonstrate, others are at the "listenable" stage in developing one for QSC/DE250....

Unfortunately my being unable to listen to these has nothing to do with not having a crossover developed, but everything to do with literally working every day, 12 hours a day. The money is good, but quality of life doesn't have a price tag.

How low have you guys pushed the QSC/DE250 crossover? How does it sound?

~Brandon


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post #268 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by augerpro View Post

How low have you guys pushed the QSC/DE250 crossover? How does it sound?

We all have CX3400s, and now that Jack has demonstrated its CD Comp yields a reasonable result, it should be easy enough to make that determination merely by dialing the frequency around. However, your measurements indicate that pattern control is compromised in both axes below 2 kHz which, in combination with B&C's recommended 1.6 kHz minimum crossover frequency for DE250 (yes, we know Geddes plays it lower routinely,) and eWave's "standard" 1.6 kHz acoustic crossover frequency has us hanging with that, at least until we establish the baseline performance....

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post #269 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by catapult View Post

I don't have any beef to pick with Wayne but his stuff is XO-101. Brandon's doing grad-school stuff. Both Wayne and Earl G are fairly ignorant of what's going on out there in the XO world with all the cool, cheap (or free) software you can get these days. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't toot your own horn as an 'XO expert.'

Dennis I sure appreciate all the help and support you've given me over the last couple years-it's been indispensable on a number of occasions!

I don't want to compare myself to anyone, especially not people who have been doing this for MUCH longer than me. I'm still learning new things everyday and still make rookie mistakes. I think these two projects will be pretty popular and have really stepped up my game in know-how, but at the end of the day I'm still a hobbyist.

The only thing that makes me scratch my head is Wayne's outdated method (SPICE is so 1990). Earl I have huge respect for, but sometimes his position does baffle me a bit. But what do I know? I can just do what seems right to me, I don't have the inclination to argue about it on forums anymore.

~Brandon


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augerpro is offline  
post #270 of 603 Old 09-26-2009, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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What the heck Zilch, why can't I register augerpro at AK? I can't see any of the plots Jack is posting.

~Brandon


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