Interest in 2-way Coaxial Design - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 130 Old 01-19-2017, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by nlpearman View Post
I dreamed about a DIY WCW like JTR's Triple 8 too but, even JTR themselves have abandoned that WCW design in favor of the middle horn-loaded CD that we see with the Noesis series. There might be something to that...
the 228HTR middle horn cd uses a coaxial cd thats super awesome and $750 all by it self, the lower end 228HT is just using a really low crossover point on what looks like a synergy inspired horn.
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post #122 of 130 Old 01-19-2017, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by uniquepattern View Post
I read the same thing..


Im thinking of picking up a trio of 15XA38ND's to try out (they seem to be a favorite - decent looking response).... I found a couple of enclosure and XO designs online (however the XO's mostly seem like the Beyma stock version, but with Janzen Caps ect...) so I wont be going into this blindly...


What do you guys think, good idea or waste of time??
Would they be better then my Polks? (I would think so, but not sure)
I would bet its better than polks, and I like polks for big box store products.

My search turned up the No Frills Caveman 15, a setup by Maarty on speakerplans ( stock crossover ) and some others, haven't found anything negative about them.

Also why looking for your 15 in question, ran across an crossover for a hemp acoutsics CO15V which is based on the radian 5215, by Bambadoo at DiyA here is what he posted


1.5mH foil inductor
0.82 foil inductor
6.8uf mundorf supreme silver oil cap
8.2mH inductor (for BSC)
and 3 resistors I don't remember the values on...( picture looks like it has them )
3 opponent. 1 BSC network 2 for attenuation of treble.
The 22ohm resistors are NOS carbon Beyschlag
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post #123 of 130 Old 01-19-2017, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
... And the WCW has been discussed between Erich and I before. I even have a couple coaxials here Ive been keeping in mind for such a project. But its just never come to be. Keep your eye out though.
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...The only reason these would make sense over the 1099 layout is if they were full range speakers, which means they get pretty large.
Or fairly inefficient. I still think a compact WCW with something like an Omnes Audio CX3.1 between two Anarchies would be a killer speaker for most people. Maybe not the "reference level" obsessed crowd, but the fact of the matter is most people live reasonably close to other people and can't really use 115dB/1m output anyway.

A vented variant would get low enough for the no-sub crowd. A sealed one would be ideal for the multisub crowd.

Most coaxes are awful, though.
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post #124 of 130 Old 01-19-2017, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
Or fairly inefficient. I still think a compact WCW with something like an Omnes Audio CX3.1 between two Anarchies would be a killer speaker for most people. Maybe not the "reference level" obsessed crowd, but the fact of the matter is most people live reasonably close to other people and can't really use 115dB/1m output anyway.

A vented variant would get low enough for the no-sub crowd. A sealed one would be ideal for the multisub crowd.

Most coaxes are awful, though.
I cant help but agree most people dont need the sensitivity sought after so ofter around here. I use 87db 4ohm speakers on a basic AVR in my HT for the past 6months. Never found the limits yet. But its been kids movies for the past 6months too
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post #125 of 130 Old 01-19-2017, 08:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
I cant help but agree most people dont need the sensitivity sought after so ofter around here. I use 87db 4ohm speakers on a basic AVR in my HT for the past 6months. Never found the limits yet. But its been kids movies for the past 6months too
Amen!

Nice to see some reason instead of the enthusiast-itis that's so common around here.
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post #126 of 130 Old 01-20-2017, 10:05 AM
 
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In the thread that spawned this one ( or heck might be early in this one ) Didn't Mark Seaton say something to the effect that the direct radiated FR is only part of the equation and that in room we get half of the information via reflected sound and that coaxals have a better interaction with room due to there point source nature and the way that reflects. So if you can get the direct radiated FR decent than with the better reflected sound one can have a superior in room experience.

Thats what I got out of it anyway.
I would put that comment from Mark under the marketing department even though he's partially true. Obviously Mark makes coaxial designs and it would behoove him to express the postives of that design and not express so much of the negatives.

There's a good thread on another forum where they talk about the Harman spins and how they look for coax designs. They didn't use Mark's speaker but they did test and talk about a KEF which is extremely well regarded. In the midrange and on very sensitive material the issues where detectable by trained listeners in blind testing. However it's still a rather excellent speaker and the point that's made best is that coax designs can be excellent speakers they just have their own challenges. The point source is a good thing, but it comes at a price. Mark explaining getting the off axis sound good makes perfect sense as you explained, that's the reason for the focus on directivity index and achieving a good off axis response and behavior. But I don't think you can't do that with a traditional 2 way as good or better than a coax.
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post #127 of 130 Old 01-20-2017, 10:19 AM
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Ive listened to the Kef. The problem it has doesnt have to do with coax. The designers didnt whack the woofer break up down enough. I forget the details, but stereophile has measurements and the XO on the woofer is too whimpy. Unfortunately, a $5 XO part does matter in mass production. They chose to leave those parts out because in a show room its very hard to hear the problem. If it were fixed, gosh that speaker would be amazing.

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post #128 of 130 Old 01-20-2017, 11:48 AM
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For the sake of argument (and some learning on my part) would I be correct in thinking a coax speaker may work better if your listening distance is less then 8'??
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post #129 of 130 Old 01-20-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by AdvancedTheater View Post
I would put that comment from Mark under the marketing department even though he's partially true. Obviously Mark makes coaxial designs and it would behoove him to express the postives of that design and not express so much of the negatives.

There's a good thread on another forum where they talk about the Harman spins and how they look for coax designs. They didn't use Mark's speaker but they did test and talk about a KEF which is extremely well regarded. In the midrange and on very sensitive material the issues where detectable by trained listeners in blind testing. However it's still a rather excellent speaker and the point that's made best is that coax designs can be excellent speakers they just have their own challenges. The point source is a good thing, but it comes at a price. Mark explaining getting the off axis sound good makes perfect sense as you explained, that's the reason for the focus on directivity index and achieving a good off axis response and behavior. But I don't think you can't do that with a traditional 2 way as good or better than a coax.
That's a rather cynical analysis of exact claims relative to a reference that was framed as the following:
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Originally Posted by VisionxOrb View Post
In the thread that spawned this one ( or heck might be early in this one ) Didn't Mark Seaton say something to the effect ...
I'm not going to waste time trying to find the original. I vaguely recall the comment as a response to discussion of why many find coaxials to subjectively sound very good despite some jagged on-axis response. I suspect the comment VisonxOrb recalled was related to the observed response at the listening position being just as important as the direct sound, as the direct sound doesn't matter much if you can't deliver it to the listener, and in real rooms that requires good off axis behavior. The same exact issues exist for any perfectly round waveguide, and are the reason some squiggle in a horn's direct response can sound and measure more accurate at the listening position than a dome that looks perfectly smooth near field. All designs have their hurdles. A single driver horn/waveguide will usually have bandwidth limitations that require some creativity and *compromises* when blending to the next lower frequency driver. Coaxial drivers often have geometric discontinuities which result in irregular response directly on axis. How significant those issues are and how wide an angle they cover depends greatly on how the coaxial is executed. Similarly any 2 way horn/waveguide design has one axis you can get very good off axis performance, and you must then make a relative compromise in the other axis, which is most often the vertical axis. These are all compromises with varying degrees of impact. That impact is greatly dependent on the quirks and balance of compromises in each implementation.

Rather than the KEF, I'd look to something like the TAD reference series for a better grasp of what is possible.

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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Ive listened to the Kef. The problem it has doesnt have to do with coax. The designers didnt whack the woofer break up down enough. I forget the details, but stereophile has measurements and the XO on the woofer is too whimpy. Unfortunately, a $5 XO part does matter in mass production. They chose to leave those parts out because in a show room its very hard to hear the problem. If it were fixed, gosh that speaker would be amazing.
That's a common issue in some coaxials, and I agree it is often not dealt with aggressively enough. Of course that's easy to do with DSP and sometimes with a more complex crossover design. Ultimately I've found the biggest battle with coaxials is to get a good grasp of their response on and off axis and using that to decide what set of measurements to correct and design with. The tricky part is that the answer isn't the same for all coaxial drivers.
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post #130 of 130 Old 01-20-2017, 03:48 PM
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For the sake of argument (and some learning on my part) would I be correct in thinking a coax speaker may work better if your listening distance is less then 8'??
The closer you sit, and the more awkward the potential listening angles, the more suitable a coax design becomes. 8ft is starting to get close. Especially if you have multiple seats. Coax is by far the best thing for a desktop setup IMO. Listening distance is usually around 1m.
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