DIY HT Design Midrange and HF Candidates - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 208 Old 08-16-2009, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok for those of you who haven't heard, Coax's are out...seperates are back in. I think MJG is gonna carry the torch of the Coax in either a 2way or 3way design....thanx buddy.

BOT. Some things to think about. We've talked about woofers and pretty much narrowed things down to either a pair of 8's or a single 10. This is somewhat relevant to the midrange as it applies to the overall baffle height. A single 5-6.5" mid will work either way, a pair of smaller mids will probobly lock us to a single woofer...no way around it unless we're looking at a 3ft + baffle which is hardly a stand mount. As far as mids go, there's a lot of 6.5" pro mids to choose from. We need clean response from 250-3khz and that shouldn't be a problem. Efficiency from 93db on up is needed. I'd estimate the cost range as up to $130. Anything more and we'll be making significant compromises elsewhere.

As for tweeters, i won't hide anything from the group. I like domes. Doesn't mean we have to use a dome, it just makes more sense from where i'm sitting. There's quite a few domes that have the needed efficiency and power handling at 3khz LR4 and even a few than can handle LR2. Feel free to submit whatever you like but please post some relevant data to go along with it. Ribbons also have the needed efficiency but as you all know they're pricey and delicate.....maybe not the best choice for a high power/high dynamic system. There's lots of affordable CD's as well. If someone can show us how to fit a horn lens on this baffle without pushing driver C to C spacing out of range, i'm all for it. There's an exponential horn from Eminence that could work with a dual midrange alignment but i have absolutely no idea how that would work. Zilch might as i think i've seen them in the background of some of his posted photo's. Maybe he'll chime in.

No polling yet, just submissions and discussions.
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post #2 of 208 Old 08-16-2009, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
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B&C 6MD38
Cost...around $80 at http://www.prosoundservice.com/m9_vi...em=B%26C-6MD38



A solid performer for the price with low HD and high efficiency.

Independant FR response-Thanx Zaph!



Pretty much one of my reasons for abandoning Coax's

And some HD plots as well

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post #3 of 208 Old 08-16-2009, 10:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's the horn i mentioned is the opening post. Anyone know anyhting about it?

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post #4 of 208 Old 08-16-2009, 11:20 PM
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The B&C 6MD38-8 is going to be pretty hard to beat for $80. I don't think a 3khz crossover is ideal for a 6.5" driver though

The Tangband 75-1558SE ($86) seems like it could be ideal, if you accept an octave higher crossover on the low end.



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post #5 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 05:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

The B&C 6MD38-8 is going to be pretty hard to beat for $80. I don't think a 3khz crossover is ideal for a 6.5" driver though

The Tangband 75-1558SE ($86) seems like it could be ideal, if you accept an octave higher crossover on the low end.




Although very nice all around, not sensitive enough for our project.....unless in pairs, which wouldn't help the budget at all.
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post #6 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 05:15 AM - Thread Starter
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An interesting fairly recent change from Vifa, the DX25 has been updated as per Madisound. New SPL rating is 96.5 db!



With BSC, there aren't any 10" woofers that can keep up SPL wise. May have to give the Kapplight 12" another look!
Kappalight 12/ B&C 6md38/ Vifa DX25TG09 mounted........ Sounds like something people may want to build?
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post #7 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

There's lots of affordable CD's as well. If someone can show us how to fit a horn lens on this baffle without pushing driver C to C spacing out of range, i'm all for it.

Not sure if it fits your CtoC criterion, but FWIW Zaph recently recommended "18sound ND1060 on a XT120 horn" as a possibility for an MMTMM using his new midrange driver over here: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpos...4&postcount=39. The 18sound compression drivers seem to be pretty expensive - I'm sure there'd be a cheaper alternative.
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post #8 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

With BSC, there aren't any 10" woofers that can keep up SPL wise.

If your pro woofers are also ~ 4 ohms...then yes.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/DX25TG09-04.pdf

Zmin, 3.27 ohms, at a particular freq, 2.83V. Check out the graph...
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post #9 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 10:06 AM
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Mid> 18 Sound 6ND430

Tweeter> Peerless 810921

Woofer> Eminence 3012HO/LF or maybe the 10" Deltalite
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post #10 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

An interesting fairly recent change from Vifa, the DX25 has been updated as per Madisound. New SPL rating is 96.5 db!


Says 93.5dB/2,83V here which is 90.5dB/W
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post #11 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 10:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Says 93.5dB/2,83V here which is 90.5dB/W

Wrong link. The picture shows the correct tweeter, but the specs are for the discontinued G05 not the G09. Here is the G09: www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_324&products_id=8657. It is 4 ohm though.
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post #12 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

It is 4 ohm though.

So about 93dB/W. The specs also appear to have been measured in different ways, ie new version at Zmin, which will give the highest number, so I'm not sure there will be as much difference as first impressions give.

Thanks for the correct link.
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post #13 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 11:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

So about 93dB/W. The specs also appear to have been measured in different ways, ie new version at Zmin, which will give the highest number, so I'm not sure there will be as much difference as first impressions give.

Thanks for the correct link.

Creative marketing.
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post #14 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 01:02 PM
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Ok for those of you who haven't heard, Coax's are out...seperates are back in.

Wow, go away for 4 days and bad decisions happen, sounds like my IT guys when I go on vacations

I wonder what tip the scales back to the 3-way. Is there a thread on the details? Did Tom Danley inform everyone he wouldnt be involved?

Too bad! The only way this project will even matter is if there is a true industry NAME on it.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #15 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

So about 93dB/W. The specs also appear to have been measured in different ways, ie new version at Zmin, which will give the highest number, so I'm not sure there will be as much difference as first impressions give.

Thanks for the correct link.

Did we move away from the SB29 choice also? hmmm......seems like someone is pulling the strings

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post #16 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Did we move away from the SB29 choice also? hmmm......seems like someone is pulling the strings

If you're asking me, not really. As I stated earlier, my interest is for a design for a friend who can build but doesn't want to design. If I like what ends up here, I'll recommend it to him. WRT the Vifa tweet, I only commented on the sensitivity number which I agree is 'creative marketing'.

Personally I don't like domes, so am trying TD10M/XT1086, PAudio BM8CX and B&C 8CX21 to try, if the latter ever get here, for my own use, at least.
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post #17 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

If you're asking me, not really. As I stated earlier, my interest is for a design for a friend who can build but doesn't want to design. If I like what ends up here, I'll recommend it to him. WRT the Vifa tweet, I only commented on the sensitivity number which I agree is 'creative marketing'.

Personally I don't like domes, so am trying TD10M/XT1086, PAudio BM8CX and B&C 8CX21 to try, if the latter ever get here, for my own use, at least.

Domes are fine for average SPL listening, they have specific characteristics. It just depends on the needs of each individual.

I hate domes in my HT Room because my needs are difference.

Have you seen the measurements on the QSC horn (its part of the HPR-152 designs) and its ONLY $7 (vs $90), it measures a little better then the XT1086, dont know if that is audbile though. See all the measurements Augrepro has done.

Its just a shame that the "Tom Danley" name won't be a part of this project, I do not know the details so maybe he could not be involved after all but if he still is offering his services then I can not think of any good logic why they went away with it nothing new though. The world doesnt have to be logical

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post #18 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Have you seen the measurements on the QSC horn (its part of the HPR-152 designs) and its ONLY $7 (vs $90), it measures a little better then the XT1086, dont know if that is audbile though. See all the measurements Augrepro has done.

Yes, and it looks good, but I can't get them here.
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post #19 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Yes, and it looks good, but I can't get them here.

You know that I just shipped some to Australia!!!

I did it last week for another member on here, It would have been easy to have added many more

Sorry

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post #20 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 01:31 PM
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You know that I just shipped some to Australia!!!

I did it last week for another member on here, It would have been easy to have added many more

Sorry

Damn, bad timing eh?

Anyway these are for the sides/rears, so I can compromise some and the XT's look more like the right size match aesthetically for the 10's. And the JBL 18 they'll be sitting on top of.
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post #21 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 01:34 PM
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XT's look more like the right size match aesthetically for the 10's

I agree, it will look very nice!! I do like look of the XTs (that matters to me).

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post #22 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Wow, go away for 4 days and bad decisions happen, sounds like my IT guys when I go on vacations

I wonder what tip the scales back to the 3-way. Is there a thread on the details? Did Tom Danley inform everyone he wouldnt be involved?

Too bad! The only way this project will even matter is if there is a true industry NAME on it.

penngray,

The coax project has split off to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1170839 .

Mike
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post #23 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Wow, go away for 4 days and bad decisions happen, sounds like my IT guys when I go on vacations

I wonder what tip the scales back to the 3-way. Is there a thread on the details? Did Tom Danley inform everyone he wouldnt be involved?

Too bad! The only way this project will even matter is if there is a true industry NAME on it.

Nope...Just check out Brandon's measurments of the CXT. I threw in the towel on Coax's a few days ago but i feel somewhat justified now anyways. Tom hasn't posted on the subject and i think MJG is forging ahead with a two way Coax if you guys are willing to accept the mediocre performance in favor of SPL's.
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post #24 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

If someone can show us how to fit a horn lens on this baffle without pushing driver C to C spacing out of range, i'm all for it. There's an exponential horn from Eminence that could work with a dual midrange alignment but i have absolutely no idea how that would work. Zilch might as i think i've seen them in the background of some of his posted photo's. Maybe he'll chime in.

I wouldn't use an exponential unless someone built a mighty good case, as long as there is some desire for these to be able to two-channel. In the background, you are seeing JBL OASR 90°; I don't know the flare profile, but if there's diffraction in there, it's not apparent. They are 8.625 across the widest dimension, and 7.250 in the cutaways, into which an 8" or 10" round driver nestles nicely to minimize CTC spacing. JBL makes several products using it. It's a thread-on, but not $10 cheap.

Also in the pics, you may have seen the 18-Sound XT120 elliptical, a personal favorite. There are several inexpensive drivers available which mate with it. Sorry, I don't have a bunch of comparative data, though I do have a couple of different suitable drivers.

I posted a bunch about the JBL AE Compact systems earlier, and pics of the components. There's a nice (and cute) shallow 6" square 90° axisymmetric waveguide, thread-on, $6 each, as I recall. The 8" square 90° or 120° x 50° is significantly deeper:

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/Genera...x?FId=63&MId=2

I'm a constant directivity designer, and domes don't do it for me, unless they're on waveguides. The little tweeter in AC15 is one....

.
....Crank up the SIGNAL ... cut back the noise....
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post #25 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 03:59 PM
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well, you are looking to ride the big waves...

and do so on a budget,

so why don't you wax up an

E C O N O W A V E

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=150939

(rid'n the big waves on the cheap)

make it simple, a jbl 2206 (12" to keep distortion down) in a 1 cubic footer tuned to 50hz.

econowave on top.

fantastic thx main!

if you want to cross a little lower than 80hz, no problem. just bump the 50hz eq by 3db q=0.7...and the -3db drops to 60hz.

is it a little bigger than you want in a 10"? sure, but 2" isn't the end of the world and the overall enclosure is a little 1 cubic foot nugget, with 120db+ headroom.

go for it mayhem. zilch has even built some boards that make crossover building easy for folks. why not leverage their awesome effort in your design?

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #26 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 04:31 PM
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I know this thread is for mid selections, but it seems as if a horn tweeter has been disqualified for the top end? These dome tweeters won't really be able to keep up if a pro mid and high output woofer is being used.

The B&C DE10 horn driver w/ME10 horn that Zaph tested should be considered, fairly low cost and very good performance for this application



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post #27 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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No Jay, CD's haven't been disqualified. In fact i'm looking forward to an original implimentation of a CD. On the other hand don't count out a WG mounted dome such as the SB29. I'll PM Penn and see if he want's to submit one for WG mounting and testing. I'd like to try two variations on both 6.5" and 8" Waveguides. I'm pretty confident that performance is going to be pretty impressive.
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post #28 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

I know this thread is for mid selections, but it seems as if a horn tweeter has been disqualified for the top end? These dome tweeters won't really be able to keep up if a pro mid and high output woofer is being used.

The B&C DE10 horn driver w/ME10 horn that Zaph tested should be considered, fairly low cost and very good performance for this application

Hi Jay1,

I don't believe any tweeter has been eliminated, unless it is inside a coax driver.

I'm curious to know what speaker designs you have heard that used a pro woofer and mid with a dome tweeter that makes you say the dome will not be able to keep up, or is this "internet knowlege"?

Zaphs commentary notes on the B&C tweeter/horn combo are very important for folks to read, IMO. The twin impedance peaks he mentions could be problematc for a passive crossover, which polls have determined this project to be. Zaphs comments are here, 4th item down:

http://www.zaphaudio.com/tidbits/
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post #29 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 06:37 PM
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I got tired of replacing domes. The little coils are easy to vaporize. Even when crossed at 4K and immersed in ferro fluid.

Regards,
Dan
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post #30 of 208 Old 08-17-2009, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

So about 93dB/W. The specs also appear to have been measured in different ways, ie new version at Zmin, which will give the highest number, so I'm not sure there will be as much difference as first impressions give.

Thanks for the correct link.

Graphs are the best indication I guess. Actually both graphs of the old and new look the same, no?
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