Amplifier and EQ choices for (8) LMS 5400 in (4) Dual Opposed Sealed Subwoofers - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 128 Old 08-25-2009, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I still have to name these subs and this project Once the (10) 4' x 8' (40mm thick) Baltic Birch plywood comes in, I'll start the construction thread...

In the meantime, while I wait for the wood to show up and the cuts to be made, I want to revisit the amplifier choices and wiring of the subs. I also want to solidify the EQ choices.

So now that I know this project is going to involve 8 LMS 5400 drivers, using 4 sealed subs with dual opposed drivers, how would you wire the drivers and which amps would you utilize?

One consideration is:

http://www.labgruppen.com/products/p..._installation/

In the wake of the global success of the PLM 10000Q Powered Loudspeaker Management system, Lab.gruppen have developed a powerful new addition to the range, the PLM 14000. Built around a two-input, two-output platform optimized for high-power requirements, the PLM 14000 pumps a massive 7000 W per channel into 2 ohms and 4350 W per channel into 4 ohms, making it ideal for demanding subwoofer and low-end applications.

As with the two-input, four-output PLM 10000Q, the new PLM 14000 integrates Dante™ networked audio distribution, Lake® drive processing, and load verification with real-time performance monitoring into a single 2U hardware unit plus unified software controller. The PLM Series is now the exclusive hardware platform for new Lake processing, and the addition of the PLM 14000 enables even more complete and extensive system solutions built around this unique combination of technologies.

I realize this is an expensive amp, but I am trying t oacertain whether the onboard processing can do an LT transform. I'm also wondering if two of these amps could sufficiently drive four of these subwoofers. It may be possible to get these amps at 'cost'. I'm also trying to see what sort of subharmonic filter (non-bypassable) is built in. As we know, QSC Audio is flat to about 5 Hz, while Crown is flat to about 8 Hz.

Anyway, these seem to be great amps, the question remains about whether two of these amps can do the job, or if 4 would be neccessary. Also it would be appealing if the the oboard Lake processing can do an LT transform.

http://www.labgruppen.com/products/p...ke_processing/


Then we have the QSC Audio products:

By the way, what is the QSControl.net™ BASIS / RAVE / DSP all about??

http://www.qscaudio.com/products/net...lnet_basis.htm

QSC Audio chocies?

PL380 PowerLight 3 Series: 2500 watts per channel 4 ohms, 4000 watts per channel 2 ohms.


Other components to consider:

Behrniger DCX24/96 as well as the DEQ and MIC PRO 2200

Rane EQ

Marchand Bassis (mono or stereo?)
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post #2 of 128 Old 08-25-2009, 04:36 PM
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So your going to wait until December for the LMS 5400?

Very, very nice choice!

I don't really have any advice to give, I just wanted to say how jealous I am.

I am planning on picking up a pair myself but 8 is insane and you should be applauded as a humanitarian

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post #3 of 128 Old 08-25-2009, 04:50 PM
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How many watts do you want/need per driver?

With the PLM 14000 you speak of:
You could go with one amp and wire your 8 drivers to create a 2 ohm load -> that's 7000 watts/ 8 drivers = 875 watts per driver.

With 2 amps, you don't gain a lot.
You'll end up with 4 ohms per amp -> that's 4350 watts/4 drivers (x2), which is 1087 watts per driver. This isn't a huge improvement for double the cost, but likely better THD also.

4 amps obviously gives you much more power, at much higher price. You're looking at 3500 watts/driver now. You're also looking at 4 head units with (requiring) filtering. You're probably better off $ wise with that upstream + simpler amps.
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post #4 of 128 Old 08-25-2009, 04:51 PM
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Maybe take a look at this for auto-EQ http://www.jbl.com/home/products/pro...CheckProduct=Y

or the AS-EQ1 from SVS
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post #5 of 128 Old 08-25-2009, 05:26 PM
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This thread might interest you:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1114855

A couple more brands/options for you check out.
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post #6 of 128 Old 08-25-2009, 06:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_puiu View Post


With 2 amps, you don't gain a lot.
You'll end up with 4 ohms per amp -> that's 4350 watts/4 drivers (x2), which is 1087 watts per driver.


the PLM 14000 pumps a massive 7000 W per channel into 2 ohms

7000 watts per channel into 2 ohms.... So with 2 of those amps, couldn't you make one channel drive one sub (2 drivers?)... That would give 3500W per driver with only 2 of those amps from what I calculate... Can't you wire 2 LMS so the load is 2 Ohm?
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post #7 of 128 Old 08-25-2009, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

So your going to wait until December for the LMS 5400?

Yes, I think this is the best choice for me.... I want to build the cabinets now since I am totally unavailable from End of September thru mid November. And then it gets cold....
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post #8 of 128 Old 08-25-2009, 07:54 PM
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18's or the 15's ..... Either way... wow ! The old price on the 15 was about 900.00 is that right.
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post #9 of 128 Old 08-25-2009, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

18's or the 15's ..... Either way... wow ! The old price on the 15 was about 900.00 is that right.


Only 18's will be available according to Kyle.
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post #10 of 128 Old 08-25-2009, 08:13 PM
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18's will be around the $2K mark... so 8 of them will set you back a cool $16G. Add in amps and enclosures and you will be closing in on the 30K mark.

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
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post #11 of 128 Old 08-25-2009, 08:18 PM
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I like this guys thinking. Lots of money but hey why not if you want to spend it. Make sure you get mains to keep up and they better be big, very big to sound as dynamic and powerful.

AVR-Yamaha A830
amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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post #12 of 128 Old 08-25-2009, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

the PLM 14000 pumps a massive 7000 W per channel into 2 ohms

7000 watts per channel into 2 ohms.... So with 2 of those amps, couldn't you make one channel drive one sub (2 drivers?)... That would give 3500W per driver with only 2 of those amps from what I calculate... Can't you wire 2 LMS so the load is 2 Ohm?

Correct. You'd want 2 of them. LMS drivers are D2.

Other possible amps worth looking at.

Crest 9200
QSC PL380
Powersoft K series (not sure about the filtering on these)
AeTechron 7796 http://www.aetechron.com/7796.html (JK )
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post #13 of 128 Old 08-25-2009, 10:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Correct. You'd want 2 of them. LMS drivers are D2. )

Since each of the 4 subwoofers has dual LMS 5400's, how do you wire the two drivers so the total load is 2 ohms?

Quote:


Other possible amps worth looking at.

Crest 9200
QSC PL380
Powersoft K series (not sure about the filtering on these)
AeTechron 7796 http://www.aetechron.com/7796.html (JK )

I have the Ae Techtron on my list... They make good stock amps and custom amps so I may as well check them out...

By the way, hehe, now you got me thinking about the MRI machine at work, I'm getting evil thoughts...
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post #14 of 128 Old 08-26-2009, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I like this guys thinking. Lots of money but hey why not if you want to spend it. Make sure you get mains to keep up and they better be big, very big to sound as dynamic and powerful.

Did I miss what the mains will be. I have to say upgrading will not be needed here. I bet those cones never break 1" peak to peak at about 115db during most movies.

Now for those sine wave people ..... I'm not sure

Cant wait to see the 18's. What fancy color baskets... The blue looked cool...they're almost to pretty to stick in a box and never see them again
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post #15 of 128 Old 08-26-2009, 04:48 AM
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unless it has processing that you can't get externally i wouldn't overpay just for the fact that it is integrated

integrated processing may be a big deal for an install that needs 50 amplifiers and 50 processors and saving a couple hundred cables and a few equipment racks may simplify things considerably

otherwise i would rather get the processor separately if it can be had for the same money or a little more

having things separately is better unless your overall system complexity is getting out of control or if it has to be portable etc
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post #16 of 128 Old 08-26-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatawan View Post

Maybe take a look at this for auto-EQ http://www.jbl.com/home/products/pro...CheckProduct=Y

or the AS-EQ1 from SVS

any idea what the two curves are for movies and music?

i didn't see them in the manual.

i suspect the movie eq has a big peak at 40hz, but my concern would be how much the frequency response gets rolled off under that for somebody who is building an ultimate ulf subwoofer system.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #17 of 128 Old 08-26-2009, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

Since each of the 4 subwoofers has dual LMS 5400's, how do you wire the two drivers so the total load is 2 ohms?
...

Dual 2ohm per driver wired in series to 4ohms per driver. 2 4 ohm drivers wired in parrallel= 2 ohm. 2 drivers wired in parrallel, wired in series with another pair of parrallel'd drivers gives you a 4ohm mono load. You can also do the reverse. 4 drivers will get you either a 4ohm mono or 2 ohm stereo load. Also 16ohm mono, 8ohm stereo, 0.5 ohm stereo, 1 ohm mono (for the 7796), or 0.25 ohm mono.
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post #18 of 128 Old 08-26-2009, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasyachkin View Post

unless it has processing that you can't get externally i wouldn't overpay just for the fact that it is integrated

integrated processing may be a big deal for an install that needs 50 amplifiers and 50 processors and saving a couple hundred cables and a few equipment racks may simplify things considerably

otherwise i would rather get the processor separately if it can be had for the same money or a little more

having things separately is better unless your overall system complexity is getting out of control or if it has to be portable etc

I totally agree, it just depends on if I can land these at cost... That is the huge *if* At cost, it may be reasonable... I'm just curious if the Lake processing can do an LT transform like the Marchand Bassis but in a digital manner...

I totally agree I want the DSP and amps seperate since new processors come out... but this is also a 7000W per channel amp into 2 ohms, so two of those amps could drive all 8 of those LMS 5400 with 3500W each.... again, I'm going to see what 'cost' is on those...
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post #19 of 128 Old 08-26-2009, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Cant wait to see the 18's. What fancy color baskets... The blue looked cool...they're almost to pretty to stick in a box and never see them again

Yea, I'm still waiting for transparent aluminum to come out....
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post #20 of 128 Old 08-26-2009, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Dual 2ohm per driver wired in series to 4ohms per driver. 2 4 ohm drivers wired in parrallel= 2 ohm.

Perfect... That means two big ass amps can do the job, something like the Lab Gruppen 14000 amp.... Two of those yields 3500W per driver = 28,000W/8 drivers (just as you would expect it living up to its name). I don't think the QSC Audio can touch that...
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post #21 of 128 Old 08-27-2009, 11:43 AM
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I'm not sure what the filter on the low end of the LG's is. They could have a 10hz one in there or higher. May want to research that if it matters to you. Also get the 230v version. It'll be tough getting that much power out of 120v line. I wouldn't get too hung up on the 14000w rating. It's a 1khz, 1% thd, few ms burst power rating. It'll likely be quite a bit less than that in actual use, but obviously still very brutish when called upon. It does seem like your best option at this point next to getting 4 amps.
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post #22 of 128 Old 08-29-2009, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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How many binding posts would you use per sub??? Assuming each sub has two drivers... Do you wire them together internally in a set way, or do you put two pairs of binding posts since it might allow for some flexibility?
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post #23 of 128 Old 08-30-2009, 01:48 AM - Thread Starter
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The most powerful QSC Audio amp, the PL380, is only 2500W x 2 into 4 ohms. Even if I buy 4 of those amps, I'm only getting 2500W per driver, if I were to drive each driver individually... Am I correct with the LMS 5400 (D2) that it can be configured as 4 ohms or 1 ohm?? What are my configuration options and should I get two sets of binding posts so I have the ability to drive each driver seperately (in dual opposed cabinet)? I'm trying to have 4000W per LMS 5400, but hate to do that by bridging mono unless I have no choice.

I suppose if I could configure each individual LMS 5400 as 2 ohms, I could then have (4) PL380 amps giving 4000W per driver... is this possible to configure the LMS 5400 driver as 2 ohms (or just 1 or 4?)
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post #24 of 128 Old 08-30-2009, 08:27 AM
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you might want to revisit ricci's suggestion that you get the 230v version in the context of a larger power strategy for your application.

from ohm's law, we know that i = (p/r)^0.5.

in words, current (i) can be determined by taking the square root of power (p) divided by resistance (r).

a back of the envelope calculation for what you are proposing 7000w into four channels at 2 ohms, looks something like this:

i = 4 * (7000/2)^0.5

= 4 * (3500)^0.5

= 4 * 59.16

= 236.64

so you would need roughly 237 amps at full draw through your proposed system.

the good news is that the impedance of the driver in an enclosure is not a flat 4ohms, but varies significantly with frequency and is quite high from 30-40hz, which is where most of the bass content is anyways. at 20hz, you might be looking at around 8ohms (using 4 cubes per driver), so that will cut the current in half. still, that leaves you at max current of 119 amps.

of course, this would be at max power, which you will probably never use, so this is more of a theoretical exercise. none the less, just like excursion or thermal limits of the drivers, and voltage/current limitations within the amps, power at the wall can be a limiting factor for ultimate performance systems and should be considered.

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post #25 of 128 Old 08-30-2009, 09:18 AM
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When going with multiples you will be suprised how the amps loaf most of the time. I drive each of four Tumults with a mono QSC 1450 and even during stupid sine wave testing they barely break a sweat.

I understand the need for headroom so what you will be getting is a very tall ceiling. Even WOTW, with all the dts super overbaked bass I doubt your drivers will break 1" peak to peak. You will never even get close to bending the BL .

Any way you look at it your investment will last a life time and you will never be running to the volume button during heavy bass scenes. Thats where your project will pay off in spades. Nothing ruins a movie more than being distracted by a system that lacks the ability to to deliver dynamic soundtracks. You will shine in this department !!! Sinewaves are great for testing, but once you're dialed in it's the soundtrack that will keep you smiling, over and over.

I cant wait for the pics of drivers and the cabinet build and then the final setup, along with the gang of amps that will be pushing those LMS's around. Don't forget those dedicated AC lines for those bad boys. Nothing worse than wall outlet limitation. Run 10ga romex and 20 or 30 amp breakers, or better yet 220 lines if the amps are capable !!!!

KG
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post #26 of 128 Old 08-30-2009, 10:19 AM
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I must admit when it comes to powering huge power amps we are pretty lucky in Australia running single phase 240VAC as standard or the option to run 415v 3 phase if wired in your street..

I am running A devoted line for my home theatre with A 62amp breaker & 10mtr run of heavy-duty (10mm2 nominal conductor area 2 core+ earth flat) cable as that was the largest I could use in my fuse box, I wanted to be certain that I keept voltage drop to a minimum ...

Cheers...
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post #27 of 128 Old 08-30-2009, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't understand what engineer was responsible for the poor decision to make the U.S. use 110V instead of 220V, it was a poor decision... I wish we could rebuild all of our infrastructure to 440V.

I understand your points, however, the PL380 is 220V. I also understand the limitations of ohm's law. I also understand the impedance is not linear, but for amplifier planning sake, we need to stick to the LMS 5400 driver rating. For planning purposes, I'm sticking to the driver spec of D2, dual 2 ohm VC, I believe... so a single LMS 5400 driver can be 1 ohm, or 4 ohm? Or can an individual driver be made 2 ohm?

In any case, I'm trying to have 3500-4000W available per driver. One way to do it is to buy two Lab Gruppen 14,000 amps which are 220V, and are rated at 7,000W stereo into two ohms. They are pricey and I am going to try and get those at 'cost'. It depends on pricing...

Looking at QSC Audio, the most powerful QSC Audio amp, the PL380, is only 2500W x 2 into 4 ohms. Even if I buy 4 of those amps, I'm only getting 2500W per driver (I only get 2000W per driver if I run two drivers at 2 ohm per channel from that amp).

What are my configuration options and should I get two sets of binding posts so I have the ability to drive each driver seperately (in dual opposed cabinet)? I'm trying to have 4000W per LMS 5400, but hate to do that by bridging mono unless I have no choice. Certainly I could get (8) lesser QSC audio amps bridged mono as an option, but the distortion factor goes up...

Now if I could configure an individual LMS 5400 driver as 2 ohms, I could get 4000W per driver from (4) QSC Audio PL 380 amps.... I would just stick two pairs of binding posts on the subwoofer and drive them individually....

is this possible to configure the LMS 5400 driver as 2 ohms (or just 1 or 4?)
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post #28 of 128 Old 08-30-2009, 11:01 AM
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Heres an idea that you might want to think about. I have the crest 8200 pro amp that requires a 30amp curcuit that requires 10/2 dedicated line. You can brigde two of these amps together and get 9000 watts at 2ohms and at northern sound the amps are 1100 bucks . The reason I mention this is because once you go over 10 gauge wire it becomes a bear to pull throught walls. 220 is the way to go if you will need over 30amps per amp and then you can drop down to 12gauge 2pole for a 40 amp needs. So anyway this will give you the 4500 watts per sub that you will need. There is more then one way to skin a cat and this is just one of them if your looking to save a little cash.

If you desire even more power you can bridge two 9200 together and cover 4 subs.

Scott.........
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post #29 of 128 Old 08-30-2009, 05:08 PM
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1 or 4 ohms only per driver.

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post #30 of 128 Old 08-30-2009, 06:36 PM
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The PLM versions might be a bit wasteful in cost for this project, especially when you'll have multiple amplifiers driving the same signal. The FP+ series of amplifiers are top quality, and a pair of FP+ 9000, 13000 or 14000 amplifiers would be pretty mind blowing in your setup. There's no reason you can't run them at high Voltage in your home, just as many large appliances.

There will be cheaper options out there which provide quite impressive power and good quality, but other options will generally require more amplifiers without some of the features and niceties of the FP+ series. One rather nice feature is that the amp will actually indicate when you are approaching the limit of the wall power/circuit breaker. Other amps compare well kept well away from clip, which is not a big concern in the approach you are taking.

You might want to even hunt for some QSC PL 9.0s, some old school Crown MA5002VZs, Crest 10001, or similar. These are in much less demand when you have the big Lab's available at only 26 lbs each!

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