Line array - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 109 Old 07-14-2012, 09:50 PM
Member
 
Ka7niq's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Near Tampa Florida
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Roger Russell ex of McIntosh has an IDS Speaker that uses a bunch of full range drivers in a vertical line array. Roger uses Equalization on them.
Roger lives over in Orlando Florida, I live and work here in Tampa, just over an hours drive away from him.
I have never met Roger, but I heard he had an older set of Prototypes he built to test his ideas.
I bought them, and have to go pick them up next weekend:)
The line source prototypes I bought use 20 4.5 inch Pioneer full range drivers that were on closeout at Parts Express at one time.
Roger designed this pair around the McIntosh 107 Equalizer. I found one, and Roger is going to show me how to set it up for these speakers.
I will also get the chance to hear Roger's new 16,000 dollar IDS 25 speakers, that use much better drivers then the prototype pair I bought.

I have a lot of respect for Roger Russell, and he claims comb filtering is not as bad as we think.
Sure, we can measure it, but hearing it is another matter.
We can measure distortion in an amplifier, but tests have shown we can't hear under .5 percent distortion, though we can measure it.
Ka7niq is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 109 Old 07-15-2012, 09:14 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,841
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Liked: 1164
the main problem with the ids25 is that total swept area of the many drivers is still pretty small. that is going to limit your bass by about 10db relative to a standard 15" woofer. maybe the line array effects make it more of an equal fight the further away you get, but i'm not sure that folks who like high sound levels would be happy with the ids25.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #93 of 109 Old 07-15-2012, 10:08 AM
Member
 
Ka7niq's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Near Tampa Florida
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the main problem with the ids25 is that total swept area of the many drivers is still pretty small. that is going to limit your bass by about 10db relative to a standard 15" woofer. maybe the line array effects make it more of an equal fight the further away you get, but i'm not sure that folks who like high sound levels would be happy with the ids25.
Well, I am going to go to Rogers this weekend, and I will bring some Metallica and a SPL Meter, and ask him to crank it:)
Seriously, I am much more a sound quality, imaging type of guy, but I have heard they will play loud as hell.
In the IDS 25, you have 25 drivers going for you.
Remember, I am getting the old prototypes, not the IDS 25. I can't swing 16 grand, right now.
The ones I am getting were based on an article Roger wrote for a speaker building magazine called AudioXPress.
Mine have 20 of the 4 inch Pioneer full range drivers in them.

Honestly, I have a pair of corner mounted Monster Subwoofers. Each is 9.5 cu ft with a Cadence Wild Beast Kevlar 15 inch driver with a lot of XMax. I have 1500 watts on each of them. Bass is not a problem, for me.
I will probably take the bass below 80 hz OUT of my line arrays anyway, and depend on my subwoofers.
Ka7niq is offline  
post #94 of 109 Old 07-15-2012, 11:49 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,841
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Liked: 1164
"In the IDS 25, you have 25 drivers going for you."

i am aware of that. they are small diameter and have very limited excursion. that is what i meant by swept area. i should have said swept volume.

you wouldn't need to spend $16k either to recreate them.

the drivers used are vifa tg9fd10-04, 3.5" full range. available at parts express for $20.

that puts the drivers at $500 per tower. the towers would be a simple build, figure a couple hundred ea.

all that remains is the e.q. line arrays need boost as the frequency increases. i don't know how to do that passively, but actively, it becomes a piece of cake. so figure $300 for a good active eq on the high side.

that brings the total system cost up to around $2k or so, which is very reasonable for something that performs so well--not having any crossovers from bottom to top and all the energy coming from a single source is a big advantage over other designs.

but, like i said, the whole show is limited by the excursion of the drivers and won't even match a simple 15" driver on the lowend, so don't completely buy the hyperbole in the marketing.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #95 of 109 Old 07-15-2012, 12:06 PM
Member
 
Ka7niq's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Near Tampa Florida
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"In the IDS 25, you have 25 drivers going for you."
i am aware of that. they are small diameter and have very limited excursion. that is what i meant by swept area. i should have said swept volume.
you wouldn't need to spend $16k either to recreate them.
the drivers used are vifa tg9fd10-04, 3.5" full range. available at parts express for $20.
that puts the drivers at $500 per tower. the towers would be a simple build, figure a couple hundred ea.
all that remains is the e.q. line arrays need boost as the frequency increases. i don't know how to do that passively, but actively, it becomes a piece of cake. so figure $300 for a good active eq on the high side.
that brings the total system cost up to around $2k or so, which is very reasonable for something that performs so well--not having any crossovers from bottom to top and all the energy coming from a single source is a big advantage over other designs.
but, like i said, the whole show is limited by the excursion of the drivers and won't even match a simple 15" driver on the lowend, so don't completely buy the hyperbole in the marketing.
But, consider this ?
If each driver has only 1mm of Xmax (they have more), 25 drivers x 1mm equals 25mm Xmax, right ?
Bore times stroke equals displacement, I am told.

A large woofer only has to move a small ways to displace air. My kids 15 inch woofer barely moves in his car, yet the entire cul de sac shakes.
25 small drivers have the equivalent cone area (air moving capability) of one much larger driver, I am told.

Like I said, I am going to Rogers home over in Orlando next weekend to pick up my speakers, and hear the IDS 25.
We shall see .................... smile.gif
Ka7niq is offline  
post #96 of 109 Old 07-15-2012, 12:20 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,841
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Liked: 1164
hey, if you like them, then nothing else matters.

"If each driver has only 1mm of Xmax (they have more), 25 drivers x 1mm equals 25mm Xmax, right ?
Bore times stroke equals displacement, I am told."

let's take a look at the math.

one ids driver has 36.3 cm^2 surface area and moves up to 0.26 cm (2.6mm xmax one way).

36.2 cm^2 * 0.26 cm = 9.44 cm^3

9.44 cm^3 per driver * 25 drivers = 236 cm^3.

that is the swept volume, one way, at xmax, for the ids.

a jbl 2226h driver has 880 cm^2 surface area and moves up to 0.76 cm (7.6 mm xmax one way).

880 cm^2 * 0.76 cm = 668 cm^3.

therefore the volume displaced by a 15" driver 668 cm^3 is more than twice the volume displaced by the 25 smaller drivers in the ids 236 cm^3.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #97 of 109 Old 07-15-2012, 01:01 PM
Member
 
Ka7niq's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Near Tampa Florida
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

hey, if you like them, then nothing else matters.
"If each driver has only 1mm of Xmax (they have more), 25 drivers x 1mm equals 25mm Xmax, right ?
Bore times stroke equals displacement, I am told."
let's take a look at the math.
one ids driver has 36.3 cm^2 surface area and moves up to 0.26 cm (2.6mm xmax one way).
36.2 cm^2 * 0.26 cm = 9.44 cm^3
9.44 cm^3 per driver * 25 drivers = 236 cm^3.
that is the swept volume, one way, at xmax, for the ids.
a jbl 2226h driver has 880 cm^2 surface area and moves up to 0.76 cm (7.6 mm xmax one way).
880 cm^2 * 0.76 cm = 668 cm^3.
therefore the volume displaced by a 15" driver 668 cm^3 is more than twice the volume displaced by the 25 smaller drivers in the ids 236 cm^3.

I had had and heard many speakers over the years, and will never forget when I first heard a good full range driver speaker. I heard the magic people who are fans of full range drivers talk about.
Some of us a bass freaks, some are volume queens, some are detail freaks, some are into imaging. Me, I am into the midrange, before all else. Sure, I like imaging and bass, and I have been known to crank Black Sabbath and Scorpions, from time to time. My monster Subs really "Hit", and I can turn my listening room into a dance club, at will.
I have had very few speakers that do not need a dedicated subwoofer. My old Electro Voice Interface D's, and my current Electro Voice Sentry 3's have little need of an external sub, for instance. But even the big Sentry III's only go down to 30 hz, and my Subs go even lower. So, for home theater, I add the subs.

I am only gonna ask the prototype line arrays to play down to 80 to 100 hz anyway. I have a pretty large room. Plus, all things being equal, I think if I take the bass out of them, they may sound even better ?
Here is what Roger says about the IDS 25

14. How can such little cones provide any bass, even with the equalizer?

It is true that these 3-1/2” drivers are very small compared to the 12” or 15” woofers that you are used to seeing in a system having good bass capability. You might think of the IDS-25 as a woofer made of 25 individual diaphragms all working together. Each one has an effective cone area of only 5.7 square inches. However, when combined together, the effective cone area of 142.5 square inches is equal to that of a sixteen-inch woofer and they couple to the surrounding air very nicely. The equalizer then provides the means to achieve a smooth and extended response for the deepest bass.

The large effective cone area of the IDS-25 not only delivers excellent bass but also effortless sound through the rest of the audio range and fills the room from top to bottom.
Ka7niq is offline  
post #98 of 109 Old 07-15-2012, 01:22 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,841
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Liked: 1164
"I think if I take the bass out of them, they may sound even better?"

that one is really tough to answer because we appear to like some distortion that such cone motion makes.

no doubt they will be cleaner and measure better.

"Each one has an effective cone area of only 5.7 square inches. However, when combined together, the effective cone area of 142.5 square inches is equal to that of a sixteen-inch woofer and they couple to the surrounding air very nicely."

well, the horse is already dead, so hitting it one more time won't matter.

the sixteen inch woofer analogy is about right. what is left out of the paragraph is how much excursion that 16" woofer has. 2.6mm one way. a good pro audio 15" woofer such as the jbl 2226h has 7.6mm. bass isn't the only thing in life as i mentioned above, but there is definitely some confusing hyperbole with respect to the r.r. line arrays.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #99 of 109 Old 07-15-2012, 01:44 PM
Member
 
Ka7niq's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Near Tampa Florida
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Perhaps a better comparison would be " The speaker will perform as well in the bass as SOME 15 inch woofers" ?
The JBL 15 you refer to is a well known and very powerful 15 inch driver.

I will have to listen to the line arrays run full range, and with the low bass taken away from them, and see what sounds better.
Some have said that a full range driver line array misses some detail in the highs, vs one that has a line of tweeters.
Some stick a tweeter in the center of the line, but this breaks the line.
It is all a trade off, to me. I will trade speaker coherence (a full range array) for tweeter detail, anyday.
Have you ever heard a good full range driver speaker ? Do you hear what I am talking about:)
The crossover just "does something" to the music it seems.
Ka7niq is offline  
post #100 of 109 Old 07-15-2012, 11:48 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,841
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Liked: 1164
"I will trade speaker coherence (a full range array) for tweeter detail, anyday."

you are not alone. ;-)

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #101 of 109 Old 07-16-2012, 12:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia; now run by adults.
Posts: 5,444
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 170 Post(s)
Liked: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ka7niq View Post

Have you ever heard a good full range driver speaker ?
Nope, never, and I've owned quite a few and heard even more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ka7niq View Post

The crossover just "does something" to the music it seems.
Yes, makes it much better by allowing a number of drivers to work correctly in their own bands rather than compromise everywhere with a widerange.
A9X-308 is offline  
post #102 of 109 Old 07-16-2012, 06:40 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 10,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1673
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Yes, makes it much better by allowing a number of drivers to work correctly in their own bands rather than compromise everywhere with a widerange.
+1. While it's true that no filter is totally transparent it's also true that no single driver can provide adequate displacement to deliver the lows while still being narrow enough to deliver wide dispersion in the highs. The displacement issue can be mitigated to a great extent by using a line of drivers, but not to the extent that it allows the use of 1 inch or smaller drivers.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #103 of 109 Old 07-16-2012, 09:49 AM
Member
 
Ka7niq's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Near Tampa Florida
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

+1. While it's true that no filter is totally transparent it's also true that no single driver can provide adequate displacement to deliver the lows while still being narrow enough to deliver wide dispersion in the highs. The displacement issue can be mitigated to a great extent by using a line of drivers, but not to the extent that it allows the use of 1 inch or smaller drivers.
My old Quad 57's were narrow dispersion, it kind of sucked for people out of the sweet spot, but it was great for me.
Bill, I am sure you know this, but for people who don't, Roger Sanders invented the wide dispersion curved Electrostatic Speaker, then he abandoned it, in favor of a more directional flat panel (better imaging)
Wide Dispersion is not always wanted, by everyone.
Personally, I owned floor to ceiling Acoustat 1+1 Electrostats for several years. They had a definite sweet spot. But in that sweet spot, Man, what an experience!

I think some speaker designers(not you) get hung up on the whole idea of dispersion. This is not Pro Sound, where we are trying to provide uniform good sound to even the guy in the shithouse. This is High End Audio, where we are trying to thrill basically one person, centrally located between the speakers.
Ka7niq is offline  
post #104 of 109 Old 07-16-2012, 10:21 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Fitzmaurice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 10,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 1673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ka7niq View Post

This is High End Audio, where we are trying to thrill basically one person, centrally located between the speakers.
Not being that selfish, and seldom being the only person listening to my system, I'll take the widest sweet spot I can get while not severely compromising the result.

Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design

The Laws of Physics aren't swayed by opinion.
Bill Fitzmaurice is online now  
post #105 of 109 Old 07-16-2012, 10:46 AM
Member
 
Ka7niq's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Near Tampa Florida
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Not being that selfish, and seldom being the only person listening to my system, I'll take the widest sweet spot I can get while not severely compromising the result.
I hear ya Bill:)
My Kids are grown and long gone, and Ham Radio, Running My Business, and Audio leave precious little time for a wife or girlfriend.
Besides, having a speaker with a narrow sweet spot "gives me an excuse" when I do have a girl over "Honey. my speakers were designed for a narrow sweet spot, so come sit on my lap, so you can hear them better"
My Electro Voice Sentry III Horns btw have polars from 600 hz up that are awesome, by wide dispersion standards.
My old Electro Voice Interface D's may have even been better, in this regard ?
The Interface D came after the Sentry III, and I remember reading something like this "The Interface D has the most uniform dispersion we have ever measured at Electro Voice"

Both the Sentry III and The Interface D image well, but I still miss that "reach out and touch" imaging that only a narrow dispersion speaker seems to provide.
Ka7niq is offline  
post #106 of 109 Old 07-16-2012, 05:57 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,841
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Liked: 1164
how did the trip go kilo alpha 7?

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #107 of 109 Old 07-16-2012, 06:21 PM
Member
 
Ka7niq's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Near Tampa Florida
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

how did the trip go kilo alpha 7?
I am going THIS Saturday (7-20-2012) with my best friend, and audio buddy Mike. Mike owns VMPS RM 40's, and is an addicted Audiophile, like me.
We are quite excited!
I bought the line array prototypes that Roger Russell designed and built for the AudioXPress, and they use the McIntosh MQ 107 equalizer.
I had to find one, and buy it. Roger is going to set it up for me, and show me how to use it properly.
That was the holdup, I wanted to wait until I had an MQ 107 in my possession before I drove from Tampa over to Orlando.
Hopefully, Audio Classics will have the McIntosh Equalizer to me by then ?
Ka7niq is offline  
post #108 of 109 Old 07-16-2012, 07:16 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,841
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Liked: 1164
ahh, well, i look forward to hearing your impressions.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #109 of 109 Old 07-16-2012, 07:32 PM
Member
 
Ka7niq's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Near Tampa Florida
Posts: 166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

ahh, well, i look forward to hearing your impressions.
I wish I could literally go into a deep deep sleep, and wake up Saturday Morning!
I have been an audiophile a long time, but I still get excited about stuff like this.
What are u running these day for speakers, and have you any plans to change, or build anything ?

Hey, want to hear something funny ?
The line array prototype speakers I bought from Roger Russell and will be picking up this Saturday at 7 ft 4 inches tall. My listening room is an enclosed carport, with a suspended ceiling.
I lack 2 inches of height eek.gif
I will have to remove a couple suspended ceiling panels, or cut the line array down, and drop a pair of drivers.
Roger said it is ok, either way, but it will look like crap with a missing ceiling panel.
Ka7niq is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off