need some suggestions....for a 15" sub replacement driver for MFW15 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 09-07-2009, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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ok. i have an mfw15 that i want to change the driver out of and put something more "beefy" in....and i need help on what i should consider or might work well? the amp is 350 watts. i am hoping that i can get a cast basket monster sub driver to work in this box with this amp. so any suggestions? the mfw15 is great, but i wanted to play around with it and see if i could make it BETTER!!!

i have always felt the drivers they used in these subs were cheap and if they had offered an upgraded driver i certainly would have gone for it...so now i want to do some playing on my own....but i'm completely new to this

i'm counting on the experts around here to make some suggestions hopefully. THANKS!!!

here are the specs from av123 site

Type: Slot ported w/ internal fold; single-driver system
Driver: 15" custom designed woofer
Amplifier: Custom 350 watt
Voltage: 110/220V
Frequency Response: Ground Plane frequency response is 18-200Hz +/-4dB. Typical in-room response extends to 15-17Hz.
Inputs: Stereo high level input and output. Stereo low level and LFE input.
Phase Control: Variable 0-180
Size: (H x D x W): 23.94" x 22.44" x 18.125"
Weight: 125lbs shipped
Other Features: Gain, crossover adjustments (40Hz - 150Hz), auto / on / standby mode.

would something like this driver work well? perform better than the standard MFW15 driver?
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post #2 of 25 Old 09-09-2009, 08:36 AM
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I have the same question, I would like to get a new driver that can handle the power of the amp better. It bottoms out to easy and I feel that the weakest link in this subwoofer is the driver.
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post #3 of 25 Old 09-09-2009, 08:47 AM
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I think the best option would be to sell the MFW-15 and do a full DIY style project. Dismantling the MFW could potentially give you better results (although I think you'd be hard-pressed to improve on the integration of the components of the MFW - enclosure, amp, and driver). But you'll lose the resale value that the MFW has. If you can come up with $200-$300 out of pocket and get $500 for the MFW you could do really well in DIY. I think $700-$800 is really the DIY sweet spot - it's enough room to fit an EP2500 plus a great driver like the Maelstrom-X or several smaller drivers depending on what you want to do. The real issue is knowing what kind of EQ or high-pass filter is built into the amp. It's very likely that you'll replace the driver and find that the sound isn't quite "right" any more. To "fix" that you'll have to replace the amp. Better off to just start from scratch if you ask me

If you're set on swapping drivers in the MFW you should try to contact Mark Seaton, he designed the MFW-15 and is active on this forum. To offer suggestions we would need to know the size of the enclosure (internal), tuning frequency, port size (if possible), and if there is any EQ built into the MFW amp - which is very likely and not easy to determine.


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post #4 of 25 Old 09-10-2009, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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well, i figured since eD offers a sub with either a 500watt amp or a 1300 watt amp with the same box, same driver...that this would be doable with just about any sub. maybe i'm wrong.... but it doesn't seem like it should be that big of a deal. i'm sure i'll just end up doing my own in the end, but i wanted to ask
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post #5 of 25 Old 09-10-2009, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

well, i figured since eD offers a sub with either a 500watt amp or a 1300 watt amp with the same box, same driver...that this would be doable with just about any sub.

Same driver, same enclosure, more power is very different from same enclosure, same amp, different driver

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Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

maybe i'm wrong.... but it doesn't seem like it should be that big of a deal. i'm sure i'll just end up doing my own in the end, but i wanted to ask

I'm not trying to discourage you, I just want to make sure you're aware of the issues you will likely encounter. Commercial subs almost always have some sort of EQ built into them designed specifically for the enclosure/driver included. Switching drivers *could* be fine, *could* result in EQ where you don't want it negatively affecting the sound, or *could* end up boosting in an inconvenient spot for the new driver resulting in you exceeding the excursion limits of the driver and breaking it... With that as an unknown it's impossible to make an accurate recommendation for a replacement driver. Couple that with the loss of resale value (best case it's worth the same as the original version even with a $200 upgraded driver in it...) and contrast to the performance you could get for $800 in a full DIY sub I think it would be a waste to mess around with upgrading.

That said, you could try replacing it with a driver that you would use in a DIY sub. If it doesn't work out you can throw the original driver back in and build a full DIY sub out of the other driver... If you can get answers to the questions from my first post (with the obvious exception of what EQ is in the amp) we could at least give it a shot


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post #6 of 25 Old 09-10-2009, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

Same driver, same enclosure, more power is very different from same enclosure, same amp, different driver



I'm not trying to discourage you, I just want to make sure you're aware of the issues you will likely encounter. Commercial subs almost always have some sort of EQ built into them designed specifically for the enclosure/driver included. Switching drivers *could* be fine, *could* result in EQ where you don't want it negatively affecting the sound, or *could* end up boosting in an inconvenient spot for the new driver resulting in you exceeding the excursion limits of the driver and breaking it... With that as an unknown it's impossible to make an accurate recommendation for a replacement driver. Couple that with the loss of resale value (best case it's worth the same as the original version even with a $200 upgraded driver in it...) and contrast to the performance you could get for $800 in a full DIY sub I think it would be a waste to mess around with upgrading.

That said, you could try replacing it with a driver that you would use in a DIY sub. If it doesn't work out you can throw the original driver back in and build a full DIY sub out of the other driver... If you can get answers to the questions from my first post (with the obvious exception of what EQ is in the amp) we could at least give it a shot

yup...waiting for more info from Seaton on this issue...as i feel the driver they ended up going with was not the original driver in his design..and i think the driver they used was a compromise based on cost factors.

if this is the case, i'd love to hear what driver mark seaton WOULD have used had the cost savings issue not been a factor. just my thoughts...
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post #7 of 25 Old 09-10-2009, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

yup...waiting for more info from Seaton on this issue...as i feel the driver they ended up going with was not the original driver in his design..and i think the driver they used was a compromise based on cost factors.

if this is the case, i'd love to hear what driver mark seaton WOULD have used had the cost savings issue not been a factor. just my thoughts...

What driver do you have in mind?

I can only think of the 15" AE speaker drivers (AV15X or the AV15H). What 15" drivers out there can beat that choice?

btw, I have a couple of TC2000 15" woofers not used if you are interested in USED but damn good woofers. (they look the same as the driver in the picture above)

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post #8 of 25 Old 09-10-2009, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

yup...waiting for more info from Seaton on this issue...as i feel the driver they ended up going with was not the original driver in his design..and i think the driver they used was a compromise based on cost factors.

if this is the case, i'd love to hear what driver mark seaton WOULD have used had the cost savings issue not been a factor. just my thoughts...

That sounds like a good plan. Let us know how it turns out Jinx


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post #9 of 25 Old 09-10-2009, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

yup...waiting for more info from Seaton on this issue...as i feel the driver they ended up going with was not the original driver in his design..and i think the driver they used was a compromise based on cost factors.

if this is the case, i'd love to hear what driver mark seaton WOULD have used had the cost savings issue not been a factor. just my thoughts...

Cost was always a consideration for such a product. As I have posted many times, while the supplier is the same as the first sample I received, there were 3-4 successive improvements sampled to get the final driver along with samples from a few other suppliers. I actually had a drivers with greater Xmax which were more visually impressive. They didn't perform as well in various aspects and would have required much more work and time with those suppliers to meet the performance targets at an appropriate cost.

Good design is done as a system, not piecemeal. I can certainly have built or select a driver to improve some aspects, but to really make the difference huge, a bigger amp is needed and you will then be teasing the limits of what the box design will comfortably support (particularly the port). There wasn't another better driver specifically passed on for the design, as the design was always meant as a value solution and with only 350W you need a bigger box to make highly appreciable gains.

We'll see if some ideas pan out after CEDIA.

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post #10 of 25 Old 09-10-2009, 01:25 PM
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Mark you just need to sell him a terraform and be done with it .

Verum postulo res.
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post #11 of 25 Old 09-10-2009, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveUpton View Post

Mark you just need to sell him a terraform and be done with it .

Ha, Mike thinks even an MFW-15 is overpriced at list prices.

Placing intrinsic value on things like quality control, durability and even output per form factor makes for a very personal evaluation. Some are quite happy with the crazy bargains on tools seen at places like Harbor Freight. Some aren't. Some see a SubMersive as a steal, some see it as extremely expensive. Depending on the perspective and point of comparison, both arguments could be made.

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post #12 of 25 Old 09-10-2009, 02:32 PM
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Well either way I'll be knocking on your door eventually to get some SubMersives, you make one hell of a product.

I'm more than willing to pay for quality.

Verum postulo res.
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post #13 of 25 Old 09-11-2009, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

ok. i am looking at getting a 15" SRX from Re Audio but...i have no idea how big to build the box...i am trying to figure out how to use winisd but i have no clue...any help???

A couple notes to help you get started with WinISD. First step is to get the driver you want to model entered. Select "New Project", on the screen that comes up, next to the dropdown click the button for "New".

On the "General" tab enter at least a Brand and Model - that's what will show up in the dropdown to find the driver later. On the "Parameters" tab you'll enter the T/S parameters for the driver. WinISD's funny about verifying that everything you enter is exactly what it would calculate based on other parameters you enter. If anything doesn't jive it will give an error when you try to save. To avoid this you want to enter the bare minimum and let it calculate the rest. The easiest way is to just enter these parameters:

Qes
Qms
Fs
Vas

Re
Le (if available, it will work without)
Sd

Xmax

Click "Save" to save the driver, once saved click "Close". Now you can click "New Project" again and find the driver you entered in the dropdown.

Now you can choose the number of drivers, "box type" (ported/sealed), and an "alignment" (I usually ignore this question as I'll be changing the box size, tune, etc later anyways).


Now you're ready to play the tradeoff game. You'll want to modify the Box Size, Tuning Frequency, and Port Size to get the FR that you want in a size that's manageable to you with a reasonable length port without exceeding xmax or chuffing like crazy.



I'm curious, what made you choose that driver? Considering you're in Canada something from CSS may make more sense since they're north of the border as well


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post #14 of 25 Old 09-11-2009, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

A couple notes to help you get started with WinISD. First step is to get the driver you want to model entered. Select "New Project", on the screen that comes up, next to the dropdown click the button for "New".

On the "General" tab enter at least a Brand and Model - that's what will show up in the dropdown to find the driver later. On the "Parameters" tab you'll enter the T/S parameters for the driver. WinISD's funny about verifying that everything you enter is exactly what it would calculate based on other parameters you enter. If anything doesn't jive it will give an error when you try to save. To avoid this you want to enter the bare minimum and let it calculate the rest. The easiest way is to just enter these parameters:

Qes
Qms
Fs
Vas

Re
Le (if available, it will work without)
Sd

Xmax

Click "Save" to save the driver, once saved click "Close". Now you can click "New Project" again and find the driver you entered in the dropdown.

Now you can choose the number of drivers, "box type" (ported/sealed), and an "alignment" (I usually ignore this question as I'll be changing the box size, tune, etc later anyways).


Now you're ready to play the tradeoff game. You'll want to modify the Box Size, Tuning Frequency, and Port Size to get the FR that you want in a size that's manageable to you with a reasonable length port without exceeding xmax or chuffing like crazy.



I'm curious, what made you choose that driver? Considering you're in Canada something from CSS may make more sense since they're north of the border as well

hmm...but i don't see any RE AUDIO drivers listed in that list....
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post #15 of 25 Old 09-11-2009, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

ok. i have an mfw15 that i want to change the driver out of and put something more "beefy" in....and i need help on what i should consider or might work well? the amp is 350 watts. i am hoping that i can get a cast basket monster sub driver to work in this box with this amp. so any suggestions? the mfw15 is great, but i wanted to play around with it and see if i could make it BETTER!!!

i have always felt the drivers they used in these subs were cheap and if they had offered an upgraded driver i certainly would have gone for it...so now i want to do some playing on my own....but i'm completely new to this

i'm counting on the experts around here to make some suggestions hopefully. THANKS!!!

here are the specs from av123 site

Type: Slot ported w/ internal fold; single-driver system
Driver: 15" custom designed woofer
Amplifier: Custom 350 watt
Voltage: 110/220V
Frequency Response: Ground Plane frequency response is 18-200Hz +/-4dB. Typical in-room response extends to 15-17Hz.
Inputs: Stereo high level input and output. Stereo low level and LFE input.
Phase Control: Variable 0-180
Size: (H x D x W): 23.94" x 22.44" x 18.125"
Weight: 125lbs shipped
Other Features: Gain, crossover adjustments (40Hz - 150Hz), auto / on / standby mode.

would something like this driver work well? perform better than the standard MFW15 driver?


just making sure you know that that is a 12" there, not a 15. That would be a big mistake....

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post #16 of 25 Old 09-11-2009, 12:33 PM
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As others have said already. I really think that your best bet is to sell the MFW and start a DIY from scratch. Try using Lennon's advice about WinISD to get started. We can help you. (just saw your post. You have to enter the RE Audio drivers yourself. Lennon tells you how above)

The MFW is designed as a system driver/enclosure/speaker as a whole. The amp probably has EQ and a HPF built into it that suits it specifically to the driver and enclosure that it was used in. In addition the driver in the MFW, even though it may not look like some nasty 50lb sub driver, is probably making the most out of that amps power output. I'm sure that Mark designed the sub to be amp limited. It's the smart way to do a commercial sub. The only way to get a lot of more output out of that amp is to get a bunch more efficiency out of the driver/enclosure. A bigger enclosure helps here, but I have to say that the RE driver that you are looking at is probably LESS efficient that the driver already in the MFW15. Most heavy sub drivers probably would be.

If you are determined to try this then forget the long throw 15's. 350w won't gain you anything with them. Try an 18" pro sound woofer in a big ported box tuned to 25hz or so. Eminence has a few decent ones in your price range. A tapped horn would be even more efficient but the difficulty factor goes way up.


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post #17 of 25 Old 09-12-2009, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

hmm...but i don't see any RE AUDIO drivers listed in that list....

Did you read what I wrote?? I'm thinking no


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post #18 of 25 Old 09-12-2009, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

Cost was always a consideration for such a product. As I have posted many times, while the supplier is the same as the first sample I received, there were 3-4 successive improvements sampled to get the final driver along with samples from a few other suppliers. I actually had a drivers with greater Xmax which were more visually impressive. They didn't perform as well in various aspects and would have required much more work and time with those suppliers to meet the performance targets at an appropriate cost.

Good design is done as a system, not piecemeal. I can certainly have built or select a driver to improve some aspects, but to really make the difference huge, a bigger amp is needed and you will then be teasing the limits of what the box design will comfortably support (particularly the port). There wasn't another better driver specifically passed on for the design, as the design was always meant as a value solution and with only 350W you need a bigger box to make highly appreciable gains.

We'll see if some ideas pan out after CEDIA.

Boil this down and it's exactly what others have said before... all three components were selected to produce certain desired results at a certain desired price point.
It seems like the best alternative is a "better" driver with a more powerful amp AND a bigger cabinet. Maybe AV uno dos tres will come out with HR drivers and amps (you know the "new" amps already have more punch...) as well as an optional cabinet upgrade.

My prediction: There will be no simple "plug 'n' play" driver replacement solution that yields any significant improvement.

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post #19 of 25 Old 09-12-2009, 09:53 AM
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A upgrade to a non-bottoming driver is a possibility, but beyond that you need to sell it and DIY.

Regards,
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post #20 of 25 Old 09-12-2009, 09:54 AM
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"Try an 18" pro sound woofer in a big ported box tuned to 25hz or so."

ricci, did you really just say that?

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post #21 of 25 Old 09-13-2009, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

A upgrade to a non-bottoming driver is a possibility, but beyond that you need to sell it and DIY.

I have yet to hear any bottoming out with my MFW's. In an over drivin situation I suppose I could see it but Pure-Evil hasn't posted what AVR and sub gains are being used. If you have Evil my apologies but I'd like to know if I missed it.

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post #22 of 25 Old 09-13-2009, 12:23 PM
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Methinks Evil needs to make KH a deal on the MFW so Evil can build a DIY sub

Regards,
Dan
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post #23 of 25 Old 09-13-2009, 03:16 PM
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From your other thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

man...i sure wish i could figure out WINISD or similar program to design a sub...but i just can't figure this bastard out. anyone have an easier program? i want to do a design with a 15" RE Audio SRX15d(x) driver..... maybe sealed with 1 15" passive radiator OR 2 x 4" flared ports 17" long.....

i will be using an MFW-15 amplifier rated at 350watts (spoke to RE Audio and they said the SRX 15" sub is rated for 300 watts rms so it would be the best choice from them)

i want to build an MFW-15 killer basically but using the same amplifier. ANY help would be GREATLY GREATLY GREATLY appreciated!!!

Did you get the Re Audio driver entered into WinISD using the steps I outlined above? Did you take a look at the drivers from CSS since they're in Canada (and make better HT drivers in your budget than RE Audio)? I'm not sure what you're missing here...

I know you want the easy solution of just replacing the driver (or reusing the amp... not sure what the logic is there??). If you're going to build a new enclosure there isn't really any sense in using the MFW amp with unknown EQ built into it... You're getting good advice, you should step up to the plate and follow it


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post #24 of 25 Old 09-14-2009, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Try an 18" pro sound woofer in a big ported box tuned to 25hz or so."

ricci, did you really just say that?

Sure. It would make sense for this scenario.


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post #25 of 25 Old 09-14-2009, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

Methinks Evil needs to make KH a deal on the MFW so Evil can build a DIY sub

I'll take the cabinet!!

I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -- Winston Churchill
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