Danley DTS-10 "Super Spud" DIY kit - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by WilsonL View Post

Just curious as to which Danley speakers will be a good match for this sub?

SH-mini or SH-50

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post #272 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

I'm looking forward the this.

Hehe, Im looking forward to the comparison of the DTS-10 vs all those popular subs bantered around on the subwoofer forum.

There will be HUGE fireworks, disbelief, name calling.....the usual back and forth

I know the size isnt for everyone though....that will be the single biggest draw back but at 16" deep, there are many options that people won't think of.

I do hope they build a kit that will have the opening on the side so some of us can use its at a stage or platform.

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post #273 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Tom,

Thanks for another fantascinating post.

Re loudness/distortion, seems to me that clean sound not seeming as loud as it is could in fact be dangerous to our hearing; maybe that was your point.

Re the DTS-10's horniness, it's not really a horn at low freq, is it? Wouldn't an 11 Hz horn need a mouth that's 10 or 20 ft across?

So is it 1/4 wavelength pipe at the bottom end?

Does it have any directivity at all in its passband? I don't see how with its mouth dimensions.

Not that it matters, just curious what other rules you might have bent

The tapped horn does not need the regular horns large mouth.

Read about it here

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/danley_tapped.pdf

That should clear up some questions.

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post #274 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"
"the measured impedance of the danley sub is all over the map across the bass. how does that provide a "match"? "

.

Electrical impedance and acoustical impedance are very different animals and not really related.

The impedance of the DTS10 "all over the map" is not that different than any other loudspeaker.

Yes the peaks and dips are in different places (and with different quantities), but look at the MEASURED impedance of any normal loudspeaker and you will see the same "type" of thing.

Impedance is a very complicated number-NOT just a single number that is put on a spec sheet and FAR from being a constant.

That is why Danley provides measured data-not just single numbers.

Any complex question can be easily answered with a simple easy to understand WRONG answer.

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post #275 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Danley View Post

About 10 years ago, I was part of a ABX blind listening test comparing a number of Pro-sound amplifiers. I was using some early time coherent speakers I had designed for the company and as a sanity check, brought in two hifi amplifiers, one being a Threshold Stasis.
The amplifiers did not all sound the same, after searching recordings I found a couple parts where one could reliably hear differences, not in anything obvious BUT oddly in the decay parts of the sounds.

Anyway at a modest level (peaks about -15 -20dB on the Thresholds fast meter, it began to be different in a different way, it sounded slightly less dynamic.
I was very puzzled (it was my listening amp at home) and grabbed an oscilloscope and examined the outputs. Sure enough around the point it began to sound less dynamic, it had reached instantaneous clipping.

TO BE CLEAR this is nothing like clipping which everyone knows, this was ONLY detectable if one had a without version to compare to (in this case from a much larger amplifer).
By it self, it sounded fine, no problems and that not hearing the problem is exactly why most sound level meters and other volume level indicators do not show the peak requirements.

Hello Tom,

There is something I don't understand here. Do recordings really have short peaks 30 dB (or whatever number) above the average? If the speakers can take the amplifier's maximum output, and the source has its peaks below clipping (e.g. 1 Volt on analog), then surely a much larger amplifier won't make a difference. It seems to me that such a dynamic recording with very loud peaks would play very softly overall to leave room on the medium for those peaks without clipping. If I need to crank the volume to 0 dB to hear 80 dB music, I know I should sit tight because a 120 dB peak could occur at any time. I couldn't have higher peaks that that because the source input would have clipped by then.

However, if the sources were momentarily clipped, and amps sounded different when playing back those short clipped parts, then that is very interesting. This should be investigated further (in spite of being OT for this thread). It could be an explanation of why some people hear differences in amps and others don't.

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post #276 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Hehe, Im looking forward to the comparison of the DTS-10 vs all those popular subs bantered around on the subwoofer forum.

There will be HUGE fireworks, disbelief, name calling.....the usual back and forth

Yeah, I am also anticipating this. All the guys spending too much money on their subs will defend theirs anyway they can. Its gonna be fun once we get these. Are you getting one or maybe two Penn?
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post #277 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Hello Tom,

There is something I don't understand here. Do recordings really have short peaks 30 dB (or whatever number) above the average? If the speakers can take the amplifier's maximum output, and the source has its peaks below clipping (e.g. 1 Volt on analog), then surely a much larger amplifier won't make a difference. It seems to me that such a dynamic recording with very loud peaks would play very softly overall to leave room on the medium for those peaks without clipping. If I need to crank the volume to 0 dB to hear 80 dB music, I know I should sit tight because a 120 dB peak could occur at any time. I couldn't have higher peaks that that because the source input would have clipped by then.

However, if the sources were momentarily clipped, and amps sounded different when playing back those short clipped parts, then that is very interesting. This should be investigated further (in spite of being OT for this thread). It could be an explanation of why some people hear differences in amps and others don't.

Well recorded-uncompressed recordings do have a MUCH higher dynamic range than a compressed MP3. That is why they sound so different.

Percussive sounds (piano-drums-plucked instruments etc) have the highest dynamic range. Short duration and very high peaks.

Having equipment (loudspeakers and amps) that can accurately reproduce those makes for a very different listening experience.

That is one reason live music sounds so much more dynamic (interesting) than recorded music that is played back through equipment that cannot reproduce that dynamic range.

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post #278 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

if the sources were momentarily clipped, and amps sounded different when playing back those short clipped parts, then that is very interesting. This should be investigated further (in spite of being OT for this thread). It could be an explanation of why some people hear differences in amps and others don't.

A clipped waveform is DC for the length of the clip, whether it is clipped by the amp or was present in the source. And DC can cause damage to voice coils.
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post #279 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Hehe, Im looking forward to the comparison of the DTS-10 vs all those popular subs bantered around on the subwoofer forum.

There will be HUGE fireworks, disbelief, name calling.....the usual back and forth

I know the size isnt for everyone though....that will be the single biggest draw back but at 16" deep, there are many options that people won't think of.

I do hope they build a kit that will have the opening on the side so some of us can use its at a stage or platform.

I'm already ready for it. I won't mention any fanboy brands(coughs coughv coughs), but it will be fun

I also was wondering about the side exit. That's where I intitially thought the exit mouth was going to be, but I was wrong. The side exit may be better for those who want to place it against a side wall and have the mouth facing the seating area. I can't wait for these to be finalized and the testing and comparisons can begin

David Budo
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post #280 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 10:22 AM
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Quote:


A clipped waveform is DC for the length of the clip, whether it is clipped by the amp or was present in the source. And DC can cause damage to voice coils.

And clipped waveforms have lots of harmonics at higher frequencies which put your mid/high drivers at risk.
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post #281 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

I'm already ready for it. I won't mention any fanboy brands(coughs coughv coughs), but it will be fun

I also was wondering about the side exit. That's where I intitially thought the exit mouth was going to be, but I was wrong. The side exit may be better for those who want to place it against a side wall and have the mouth facing the seating area. I can't wait for these to be finalized and the testing and comparisons can begin

If the exist is customizeable then more people could fit it. Heck a person could place it behind their wall unit.

Please allow for flexibility

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post #282 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Yeah, I am also anticipating this. All the guys spending too much money on their subs will defend theirs anyway they can. Its gonna be fun once we get these. Are you getting one or maybe two Penn?

I have 4 TC-2000 drivers, I have 1 AV15X driver, I have 4 Fi Q18s drivers, I have 4 cheap 12" woofers.

Whats another sub box

Seriously, if I can not buy a "stage" type kit then I can not put it in my HT room. I do not have a false wall currently, I would have to rebuild my HT room....Im not 100% against that

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post #283 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 11:51 AM
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Ha haa! Go Penn! Could you, have enough drivers?

David Budo
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post #284 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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You could build it out probably. Make your own kit kind of. Depending on what placement sounds best for me I may do that. My couch is wider than the sub's widest dimension so I would need to add on the sides and add a step in front if I were to put my couch on it.
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post #285 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

You could build it out probably. Make your own kit kind of. Depending on what placement sounds best for me I may do that. My couch is wider than the sub's widest dimension so I would need to add on the sides and add a step in front if I were to put my couch on it.

Isn't the idea (if you use it as a riser) that you would use two of them? That would make it 10' wide.

I do second the desire for different opening options. I'm anxiously waiting the final kit price, and hoping that it comes in somewhat south of $1K.

JP
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post #286 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 12:49 PM
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Ivan,

"the measured impedance of the danley sub is all over the map across the bass. how does that provide a "match"? "

"Electrical impedance and acoustical impedance are very different animals and not really related."

I quoted that from someone else but somehow my response is MIA.

I agree w/your response, and would add that impedance matching is not even the goal w/speakers and amps (at least solid state).

It gives maximum power transfer, but also results in equal power dissipated in both source and load.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Noah
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post #287 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

Ha haa! Go Penn! Could you, have enough drivers?

Yes too many, I have another 30 drivers in my garage for different main speakers

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post #288 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zora View Post

Isn't the idea (if you use it as a riser) that you would use two of them? That would make it 10' wide.

I do second the desire for different opening options. I'm anxiously waiting the final kit price, and hoping that it comes in somewhat south of $1K.

JP

Yeah I could do two of them, but I know what these danley products can do. I know I don't need two except for the riser purpose. I imagine two of those would be too much for my room. I know it would be headroom, but I probably won't ever push one very hard.
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post #289 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 01:54 PM
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Ya, but it would be fun trying!
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post #290 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by rkinmoval View Post

Ya, but it would be fun trying!

We may just need three or four to fit under that damn sectional we have honey. Ohhh man! Now the foot rests are too low, there a need for another one.

Let's all go to the lobby
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post #291 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 04:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Yeah I could do two of them, but I know what these danley products can do. I know I don't need two except for the riser purpose. I imagine two of those would be too much for my room. I know it would be headroom, but I probably won't ever push one very hard.

Why would you have to have two to make a riser? Just make two small matching risers to place on each side of the DTS-10.
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post #292 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Why would you have to have two to make a riser? Just make two small matching risers to place on each side of the DTS-10.

Because 2 is always better than 1

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post #293 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Because 2 is always better than 1

I agree, but even one sounds "insane" for most HT's. Like most things, cost will be the determining factor for most people. If you guys price the kit aggressively, or allow for different driver choices, I have no doubt you will sell them in bunches.
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post #294 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 05:00 PM
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Ivan,

will there be any issues putting screws through the cabinetry to secure the HT seats?
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post #295 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 05:39 PM
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Noah,
Would you mind explaining the problems with the Ultimate AV's ultimate gear article on Transducers and how the inertia affects a speaker? I'm doing my best to get the correct knowledge, sometimes it can be challenging.

David Budo
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post #296 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Any word from Ivan or Mike on how these perform in the home environment? I'm pretty anxious to hear.
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post #297 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

A clipped waveform is DC for the length of the clip, whether it is clipped by the amp or was present in the source. And DC can cause damage to voice coils.

A clipped waveform technically isn't "DC for the length of the clip" because the DC doesn't last forever. In other words, the frequency content of a clipped signal does not contain anything at 0Hz. The lowest frequency present will have the same period as the clip time. It's the same reason that a square wave doesn't have any DC...

What a clipped signal does contain, however, is extra HF energy. The damage that ensues on the tweeter is usually going to be a burnt out coil instead of excursion damage.

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post #298 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 07:29 PM
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hi ivan,

i was the one who made the comment about "impedance all over the map", not noah. i also said that i am new to this impedance matching idea. no ill will intended. i'm familiar with acoustic impedance matching in the way a trumpet works, but i don't know if the principal is the same for mr. d.'s latest creation.

has danley sound labs received a patent on the tapped horn design, is it still pending, or was it rejected? just curious. the patent office is so frustrating to deal with. for those who don't know, they have about a 2 year delay in granting patents. that's really poor customer service, especially for industries where 2 years is an eternity.

i'm still curious how the ground plane measurements translate to in-room measurements for this type of tapped horn design. it would seem that a 'regular' ported sub would benefit more from ground plane to corner placement than a tapped horn because of the directivity of the horn sub.

my last question is about placement. the idea of behind screen and used as a riser are being discussed. is one better than another? traditional subs benefit from corner placement with higher spl, but possibly more peaky modes, is the same true with this tapped horn design.

my apologies for all the questions, but since the tapped horn is so different, i have to at least question all the old assumptions and heuristics that we have come to rely on with respect to design/placement, etc.

thanks in advance for answering any of my questions.

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post #299 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

Electrical impedance and acoustical impedance are very different animals and not really related.

I'm not too sure I agree with that...it's pretty easy to tell from just the impedance response what the speaker topology is, or what kind of unwanted leaks/resonances are present.

I've been mulling on this all afternoon, and I'm thinking that the tapped horn electrical impedance can be explained by the fact that the acoustical matching matters most at the mouth of the horn. And really, in order for the tap to happen, the driver needs to be "unloaded" at those frequencies.

I bring it up because I don't believe it is possible to increase the acoustic loading on the driver without it showing up in its electrical impedance response.

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post #300 of 10055 Old 10-24-2009, 07:39 PM
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as for the side discussion on clipping, here is a controversial statement from qsc rmx 2450 user's manual (see last paragraph). if this were behringer, i would ignore it, but this is from qsc.


LL

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