Danley DTS-10 "Super Spud" DIY kit - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 01:50 PM
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We should not ask for more (like plans) and just be very thankful, at least I am. Let's not forget the future...LCR speakers in kit form.

Always ask for more...its lesson #1 in any negotiations

If the plans are not offered there will always be away for someone to copy it...This is DIY afterall and we are copying speaker designs and subwoofer designs daily.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #452 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 01:56 PM
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I am sure anyone can buy any product and take it apart and build a version of it, with different drivers though. The sonosubs are replicas of SVS cylinders without any restrictions for selling.
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post #453 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

This is DIY afterall and we are copying speaker designs and subwoofer designs daily.

Unless you mean using ported and sealed designs "copying" then I disagree. I have never seen a subwoofer like mine or like Scott's or like ricci's etc. If the concept of large boxes tuned low is your idea then guilty as charged, but with horn subwoofers its not something that can be easily copied by a novice or even a mid level diy person. Mess up a little bit on measurments and the sound changes. Make a sealed enclosure a half foot larger and the sound does change, but not huge. You would still get a decent if not improved sound.
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post #454 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Danley View Post

Hi guys

Bosso asks I personally don't see how multiples will smooth the FR. Post EQ will be a must. Scaling the vertical to 5dB/division shows an awfully peaky anechoic response, IMO.

As to why your measurement has dropped about 15dB of level relative to the actual measurement, making it look more like a direct radiator in efficiency, is not clear.
+15 dB of efficiency or output is a noticeable amount fwiw.
Switching to a speaker with +15 greater sensitivity is somewhat like getting 12 times more power or output for free.
It is unfortunate you weren't able to get to the GTG that Brandon held to hear the TH-50 as describing things like headroom isn't the same as hearing it.

I apologize. I had a blank graph and scaled the response to it and pasted it. My concern isn't sensitivity, but FR, so the FR magnitude was not relevant to my point.

As far as a listening session where the sub peaks in excess of 130dB while swamping the mains, I don't think it was the merits of headroom that was being commented on. I've been around pro sound since my early teens and have had my bass mic'd through some rather large stacks of bins in football stadiums, so I'm sure I might imagine the scenario maybe better than you assume.

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Flattening a bump with a cut filter buys headroom back for the same reason, same for a flatter or higher sensitivity response. Thus, two points of cut EQ and a low pass filter can make the anechoic response that is your concern, very satisfying visually.

Headroom in a very narrow band (PEQ cut) isn't headroom in a general sense. It doesn't allow you to increase playback levels any more than before the narrow band cut is applied.

If the DTS-10 has available output anywhere near what's being posted, headroom isn't the issue. In room response is.

In any case, I'm sure Josh and MK and other trustworthy sources will provide feedback that's more than adequate, and I look forward to it, for sure.

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If that smooth appearance is the primary concern, then choosing an acoustically simpler cabinet which gives a very smooth curve anechoically would be the way to go, on the other hand, if you place one in a room all of that is over ridden by the room and then one which can be eq'd to the desired response may be more of a concern as well might be the total acoustic power if you happen to like dynamics..

Yes, I understand the basic principal. Take my room, where there just happens to be an 8dB peak at 53Hz that comes with the placement options. Using EQ or multiples of much smaller subs to deal with that is a manageable affair, but -20dB through EQ is not preferable to me and multiples of 25 cubes isn't practical, thus my post.

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One popular way to get a very low advertised corner is to use a sealed box and EQ it flat to single digits.
Here, lets say the box's natural low corner was at 80Hz and you applied +12 dB per octave slope to 10Hz. Now, the EQ'd response would be flat to 10Hz and the problem is solved right?
If one drove the speaker with 1Watt at 80Hz, you would find it took 16 Watts to reach the same SPL at 40Hz, 256 Watts at 20Hz and 4096Watts to reach the same level at 10Hz.
AS a result, you run out of amplifier and output very quickly.

Tom,

Building a sealed box with a low corner of 80Hz and applying boost EQ to make it anechoic flat to single digits has ever been popular around here and I'm fairly certain that you don't think so either.

I'm not attempting to compare a DTS-10 to anything else. I was only commenting on the 2 obvious down sides as I see them; size and anechoic response. There's little denying the size issue, at least in my case, and your answer to the response issue is a LP and PEQ. I appreciate the response and I look forward to seeing how it works out in some typical rooms.

Bosso
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post #455 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 03:32 PM
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MK,

Just wondering....if you have bass nirvana already, are you going to try the DTS-10s out just to experiment??? Wow, wish I could, can't wait to 'hear' your results...

As an aside....do you wear earplugs to watch movies at 118+dB??

Danley personnel,

What's the group delay like on the DTS-10 compared to a sealed or vented box, or a front-loaded horn?

Thanks,

JSS
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post #456 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I am sure anyone can buy any product and take it apart and build a version of it, with different drivers though. The sonosubs are replicas of SVS cylinders without any restrictions for selling.

Actually, the SVS guys were DIY'ers who took existing ideas about sonosubs (and Dr. Hsu's commercial offerings) and turned it into a profitable business. Quite of few of us DIY'ers had sonosubs before Hsu and SVS. I think that the Danley kit is a great value, but people here really want to make sawdust themselves.
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post #457 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 05:06 PM
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Hi Bosso

My concern isn't sensitivity, but FR, so the FR magnitude was not relevant to my point.

I see. My concern is in part with efficiency or more correctly getting the most sound from a given cabinet volume per dollar, per Watt, per pound, all that is important in commercial sound.

As far as a listening session where the sub peaks in excess of 130dB while swamping the mains, I don't think it was the merits of headroom that was being commented on. I've been around pro sound since my early teens and have had my bass mic'd through some rather large stacks of bins in football stadiums, so I'm sure I might imagine the scenario maybe better than you assume.

I don't think you read the post about dynamic range, head room and such, this is not about loudness as you read on an SLM, not about playing car stereo bass at home (although you could), this is more about dynamics.
The strength of using a speaker like a TH-50 where four can do a full size Imax, is that it is loafing in a living room even loud. You can hear effortless even if you can't point to it on a measurement.

I have designed loudspeakers for large scale use much of my life, for a living for approaching 30 years and would also suggest I am familiar with what is going on and put every positive nuance I can into the speakers I design. Now that my name is on them, that is pretty much imperative, we sell by people hearing our stuff next to the other choices.

Headroom in a very narrow band (PEQ cut) isn't headroom in a general sense. It doesn't allow you to increase playback levels any more than before the narrow band cut is applied.

It does in practice however, even in a crossover.

If the DTS-10 has available output anywhere near what's being posted, headroom isn't the issue. In room response is.'

Ok, what is the problem with the in room response then?
Personally, I haven't seen that yet and would be hesitate to make that judgment other than projecting from some of our other speakers do..

but -20dB through EQ is not preferable to me and multiples of 25 cubes isn't practical, thus my post.

EQ is rarely problem especially if it is a cut filter, ever listen to a record? Ever look at the Riaa eq curve?
Where do you imagine a need for a -20dB cut in the response anyway?
As for the size, they are big to be sure, not the biggest speakers we make but normally it isn't so much the volume of a sub that makes it a problem in a room but form factor.
At 16 inches deep one could mount four in a room behind the screen and still loose less than a foot an a half of room depth.

Building a sealed box with a low corner of 80Hz and applying boost EQ to make it anechoic flat to single digits has ever been popular around here and I'm fairly certain that you don't think so either.'

In reality, one of the more well known low frequency subwoofer companies has done just that for as long as I have been in the speaker business, advertising an 8Hz cutoff.

More common is a shelf EQ at the bottom end, here even a 6dB lift makes the bottom run out of amplifier at ¼ the power of the range above.
Here it is the raw efficiency that matters, how sensitive is it at 20, 30 ,40 Hz etc, how loud can it go at 20, 30 ,40 Hz etc.

I was only commenting on the 2 obvious down sides as I see them; size and anechoic response.

There is no denying it is big, but also very powerful, I don't see the anechoic response as a down side and it will be different in a room.
The intention here was to have a sealed box roll off below 20-25Hz and then the final roll off slope lower down, in this case beginning about 11Hz..

Essentially 100% of all the installations our speakers go in, the system is eq'd after installation, contractors are more concerned with the results in their application than the raw response of one unit in half space. I would urge the users of this box to do the same, put it in the room, measure it THEN eq what is needed where needed.

How it strikes the average person is yet to be seen / heard and that is the final arbiter.
Given your background, I will be eager to see what you think when you have heard them.
Best,
Tom
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post #458 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 05:37 PM
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"Here it is the raw efficiency that matters, how sensitive is it at 20, 30 ,40 Hz etc, how loud can it go at 20, 30 ,40 Hz etc."

You should add 10Hz to that statement now...

I could not agree more....headroom is SUCH a big deal, whether done with many drivers like MKTheater, or using a horn, or multiple horns....when close to a system's excursion limit, increases of only ONE or TWO dB can mean an increase of 5% or more in distortion. In subwoofers and especially ones capable of subsonics, this distortion is clearly audible, especially at the lowest frequencies where our hearing can detect a higher order harmonic which is orders of magnitude lesser in intensity than the fundamental....

In the reproduction of the lowest content available, spl at 1/2 Xmax or less is the goal, as Xmax is typically where 10% THD comes into play....ever listened to a sub-20Hz tone at 2%, 5%, and 10% THD? There is a huge difference between 2% and 5%, and at 10% THD, it does not resemble anything with any 'fidelity'....

It is all about headroom when it comes to the lowest freqs....in my opinion. I use a horn-loaded sub.

JSS
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post #459 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 06:21 PM
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As soon as DSL gets back to me I will order them. Like I said before, I have heard horns(folded, not tapped) in my room and if these indeed go down to 11 hz(most likely 7-8hz in my room) and provide me with that horn sound I am in. I don't know if I will get more dynamics since my sub system acts like a single 18 inch 108 db/1watt/1 meter sensitive sub. I am excited though and it is hard for me to wait for a quote. I know the eD is not the best driver but 8 of them make them formidable in a medium room hardly being pushed which equates to lower distortion. I know many here at the GTG compared the Danley to one of the other subs but how about 8? If you were getting the same spl or more from the others would their opinion be different? These are the questions I would love to have answered so that is why I will do it myself.
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post #460 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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MK, are you keeping the eD's around till you get the DTS-10's to do a side by side comparison?
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post #461 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 06:51 PM
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I've got a good feeling about the performance of these subs, so I for one am going to sell some of my excess "toys" (two AV15's' - 4 18" PR's - 2 High Power plate amps) and get one or two of these Super Spuds.
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post #462 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post


It is all about headroom when it comes to the lowest freqs....in my opinion. I use a horn-loaded sub.

JSS


Absolutely MaxMercy. I couldn't agree more. It's unreal how much more headroom I have with my horn (Tuba HT) in contrast to my LLT.

Doing an A/B test with them, My horn with 100 watts seamlessly puts out more clean undistorted bass than my LLT with 1000 watts and the LLT is well above 10% distortion. Not to mention the horn having a major advantage over the LLT in the SPL department.

When you take into account the dynamics of the modern movie-track where there are spikes which require ALOT of headroom, the efficiency of the horn makes alot more sense over traditional alignments (sealed/ported).

As Danley points out. It's hard to explain the benefits of efficiency until you hear how effortless efficient bass sounds like.
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post #463 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 07:52 PM
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I wonder what kind of tapped horn you could make with LMS 5400 drivers....
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post #464 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 07:53 PM
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I doubt I will sell all my subs by the time I get these so I will be able to compare. I only watch movies so I have become very familiar with what I have. If someone wants to buy them I will sell them before I receive the subs. If the Dts-10's don't work out I am building dual opposed sealed subs with eD's 13av.2's.
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post #465 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

I wonder what kind of tapped horn you could make with LMS 5400 drivers....

A very large one. Ricci modeled one in a tapped horn and I believe it needed over 100 cubic feet of enclosure to make it work. It's all in the specs.
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post #466 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Health Nut View Post

I wonder what kind of tapped horn you could make with LMS 5400 drivers....

T/S params look pretty bad for use in any real usable horn .


What's great about horns is you don't need an XMAX monster to get great results. Where traditional alignments heavily depend upon XMAX and power handling, horns depend more on it's enclosure.

I'd be willing to bet that 2 18" LMS5400 in an ideal traditionally aligned enclosure (sealed or ported) would be bested by 2 $150 12" LAB12 drivers in the DTS-10 as far as both sound quality and SPL.

The only time XMAX becomes an important factor is below the horn's tuning. The horn's efficiency diminishes and the driver than becomes a more important factor.
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post #467 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 09:41 PM
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why the name choice? isn't a "spud" a potato?

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post #468 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Being that the original spud was to be a riser for a couch the talk was that of someone who never left the couch. Couch potato...spud.
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post #469 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 09:52 PM
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Nah its something like.. subwoofer plunging to unbelievable depths.
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post #470 of 10088 Old 10-27-2009, 09:56 PM
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oh. seems more like a Danley Dynamik to me. ;-)

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post #471 of 10088 Old 10-28-2009, 02:06 AM
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I question the other designation. Why is it a DTS 10?

It has more volume than a DTS 20 and has twice as many 12" drivers.

Buying a DTS 10 over a DTS 20 makes it sound like you are only getting something half as good?

I think the Danley folks should send one along on the AVS Home Theater Cruise next week for evaluation.

Dr V
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post #472 of 10088 Old 10-28-2009, 04:34 AM
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just to make sure that i am clear on what is going on here.

the measured data show ~111db 2.83v1m.

112db 1w1m => 100% efficiency (1/2 space).

add 3db for 2.83 into 4ohms instead of 8 (drivers wired in parallel).

115db - 111db = 4db. 10^(4/10) = 2.5

100% / 2.5 = 40% efficiency for danley tapped horn (2 drivers).

so while a typical hifi subwoofer is 0.5% efficient...

and pro-audio subs (good ones) are 3.0-4.0% efficient...

the tapped horn (single driver) is coming in at around 20.0% efficient (and that is with it being tuned for depth).

maybe even a little higher if we could see more of the graph, maybe slightly lower if double drivers adds more than 3db in a tapped horn, maybe a little less if the bass is a little directional, but is this in the right ballpark?

if i haven't goofed up the maths, that's amazing.

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post #473 of 10088 Old 10-28-2009, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mynym View Post

T/S params look pretty bad for use in any real usable horn .


What's great about horns is you don't need an XMAX monster to get great results. Where traditional alignments heavily depend upon XMAX and power handling, horns depend more on it's enclosure.

I'd be willing to bet that 2 18" LMS5400 in an ideal traditionally aligned enclosure (sealed or ported) would be bested by 2 $150 12" LAB12 drivers in the DTS-10 as far as both sound quality and SPL.

The only time XMAX becomes an important factor is below the horn's tuning. The horn's efficiency diminishes and the driver than becomes a more important factor.

That's a bet i'd be willing to take you up on........easy money for me!

While the idea of efficiency and SQ from a 10" driver look very appealing, there's these rules of physics that limit the performance. There's no replacement for displacement, especially when the 5400 is considered.
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post #474 of 10088 Old 10-28-2009, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

That's a bet i'd be willing to take you up on........easy money for me!

While the idea of efficiency and SQ from a 10" driver look very appealing, there's these rules of physics that limit the performance. There's no replacement for displacement, especially when the 5400 is considered.

The dts10 would win that bet. I have heard the th-50 compared to the 5400. The 5400 is probably the best driver out there for traditional enclosures, but the tapped horn is what does it. Louder, cleaner, less thd, and less cost. If you want a small enclosure to fit a certain living situation then the 5400 is a no brainer. If you don't have size restriction then the dts 10 will win.
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post #475 of 10088 Old 10-28-2009, 05:09 AM
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Question for the experts:

Compared to a sealed or vented alignment, what is the group delay of a tapped horn? Simulations can show that group delay of horns can vary wildly over the passband, compared to the gradual rise of a sealed alignment. Is this audible, or does the efficiency gain of a horn negate it?

JSS
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post #476 of 10088 Old 10-28-2009, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

That's a bet i'd be willing to take you up on........easy money for me!

While the idea of efficiency and SQ from a 10" driver look very appealing, there's these rules of physics that limit the performance. There's no replacement for displacement, especially when the 5400 is considered.



Hummm...... It's brother has some pretty good reviews from the locals here at AVS.


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post #477 of 10088 Old 10-28-2009, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Question for the experts:

Compared to a sealed or vented alignment, what is the group delay of a tapped horn? Simulations can show that group delay of horns can vary wildly over the passband, compared to the gradual rise of a sealed alignment. Is this audible, or does the efficiency gain of a horn negate it?

JSS

I have not studied the group delay effects on tapped horns. I have seen I think on diyaudio.com that horns typically have higher group delay. If that is the case I will say that the effect is either not audible or not noticeable to someone not listening directly for it. I heard nothing but no to low distortion bass, just bass with no artifacts.
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post #478 of 10088 Old 10-28-2009, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

The dts10 would win that bet. I have heard the th-50 compared to the 5400. The 5400 is probably the best driver out there for traditional enclosures, but the tapped horn is what does it. Louder, cleaner, less thd, and less cost. If you want a small enclosure to fit a certain living situation then the 5400 is a no brainer. If you don't have size restriction then the dts 10 will win.



I noticed that the TH-50 was setup with a 20 Hz HP filter at the Southern Shootout. If the DTS-10's recommended setup is the same, what will the attitude of the bottom dwellers who demand high SPL level FR down to 10 Hz?


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post #479 of 10088 Old 10-28-2009, 06:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

I noticed that the TH-50 was setup with a 20 Hz LP filter at the Southern SHootout. If the DTS-10's recommended setup is the same, what will the attitude of the bottom dwellers who demand high SPL level FR down to 10 Hz?



I think you mean high pass not low pass, I did not think the DTS-10 has a 20Hz high pass recomendation. Since the DTS-10 is designed to go lower than the TH50, why would you want to limit the DTS-10 to 20Hz?
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post #480 of 10088 Old 10-28-2009, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

When a big bass scene hits not only does it shake or punch you in the chest it instantly energizes the room like an electric storm and gives that tingly feeling on your body and head.

At 118db and up...maybe you've found the SPL needed to levitate your head...and that tingle is the effect of your spinal cord being pulled out of your spine?

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