Danley DTS-10 "Super Spud" DIY kit - Page 170 - AVS Forum
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post #5071 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You have have a problem, either you are sitting in a null or the voltage is way off for your amp.

I have never heard of a Denon needing a Samson or other helper. But, stranger things have happened.

I have a 2807 and it has plenty of oomph to drive everything, EQs and/or pro amps directly.

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post #5072 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I am going from a consumer dennon 4308ci which uses a unbalanced rca out to my crest pro amp which uses input xlr. I wonder if this samson s convert would make my system sound better. I have the sub channel level in the dennon set to +5 and the input gain knobs fully clock wise on the front of the pro crest amp.

i thought i read somewhere that denons were known for the low voltage on the lfe channels or something?

i have a onkyo 3007, my receiver is at -1.5 and my behringer ep4000 is less then halfway.
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post #5073 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

i thought i read somewhere that denons were known for the low voltage on the lfe channels or something?

i have a onkyo 3007, my receiver is at -1.5 and my behringer ep4000 is less then halfway.

Actually, it is usually quite the opposite for Denons. I have had a couple and I currently have mine set to 0...with my EQ set to -10db.

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post #5074 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 07:47 AM
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I'm using a Denon3300 as my pre/pro and sub channel is set to about -5db with the Behringer amp volume set at 18db.

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post #5075 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I am going from a consumer dennon 4308ci which uses a unbalanced rca out to my crest pro amp which uses input xlr. I wonder if this samson s convert would make my system sound better. I have the sub channel level in the dennon set to +5 and the input gain knobs fully clock wise on the front of the pro crest amp.

I agree with Brandon on this one. If you have to crank the amp up to full gain then you are probably not feeding it the full input voltage. For a pro amp to put out it's full potential it must recieve 1.4v at the input. If you are getting enough power to drive the sub to the spl you need then you are good but more headroom is always a good thing.
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post #5076 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCARCIO View Post

I agree with Brandon on this one. If you have to crank the amp up to full gain then you are probably not feeding it the full input voltage. For a pro amp to put out it's full potential it must recieve 1.4v at the input. If you are getting enough power to drive the sub to the spl you need then you are good but more headroom is always a good thing.

Different amps require different input voltages to achieve full output level. Some are a good bit less than 1.4V and others are a good bit more-it depends on the particular model.

There is nothing wrong with running the amp level full up (unless you have a noise problem in the system) and then adjusting the actual level with your drive in the receiver.

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post #5077 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

Thanks TCARCIO. I had mine at 50% gain and took measurements and compared them to measurements with the gain at about 30% and the processor bumped up. I got a flatter curve that way and more SPL. There are so many variables....

Got the sub back in its original position in the back of the room. It sure does like it there! Watched about 10 minutes of Lord of the Rings with master volume at -6. I was hitting dynamic peaks at 110db. I don't know how you guys listen at anything louder. I was in physical pain in a few minutes time. It was so clean and effortless, amazingly so.

Hey Tony:

I may be misinterpreting where your output level is set but there is a general consensus with digital sources to avoid going above 0dB with the processor level, to avoid the possibility of digital clipping. This possibility is dependent on the design architecture of the processor but to be "safe" stay 0dB and below with the output level from the processor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I am going from a consumer dennon 4308ci which uses a unbalanced rca out to my crest pro amp which uses input xlr. I wonder if this samson s convert would make my system sound better. I have the sub channel level in the dennon set to +5 and the input gain knobs fully clock wise on the front of the pro crest amp.

Same caution here, Kutlow.

I second the suggestion to get the Samson and match gain levels to your amp in the analog domain, allowing you to set your processor at 0dB instead of +5dB. Since you are going to the trouble of aiming for state of the art performance, don't stop now!

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post #5078 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 10:15 AM
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post #5079 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 10:42 AM
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robobob, I didn't make myself clear I don't think. The channel level on my processor (for the sub channel) is at -5db. My master volume never goes past 00db, most movies are watched at -12db. When in the mood for "really loud", about -6db on the master volume.

The gain knob on the subwoofer amplifier is at about 30% power (roughly 10 o'clock).

Sound okay?

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post #5080 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

In anticipation.

Yep. Those should work out great for you. I know it did for me when I had to move my behemoths around from the garage to the back room. Picking them up was hard but moving them on these was easy.


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post #5081 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 11:41 AM
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I have the crest pro 9200/ danley 6.5k. Since these are very expensive 3000.00 I just want to get the best performance from it. It has lights on the front panel showing signal input. On heavy bass scenes it does light up and go solid but on normal talk scenes it either just flashes or is off. Im not sure if it is supposed to remain solid on signifying it has the proper input level. I have the input gain fully clockwise like the manual states to do. I was getting some subwoofer ground loop hum and maybe if I get the samson s convert I could turn the input gain down some to lower the hum. I also want to make sure im getting all the headroom these dts's allow.

I was told by a Danley Dealer that these dts-10's like a lot of power to keep full headroom on fast bass scenes. He suggested me to buy a second 9200 and run them in bridge mode. I would then have each one doing a single dts-10. The crest which would then have 6500 watts BRIDGED. Now I am using the single one in parrellel mode with each channel doing a single dts-10. Oh so many thoughts going through my mind.
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post #5082 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

I have the crest pro 9200/ danley 6.5k. Since these are very expensive 3000.00 I just want to get the best performance from it. It has lights on the front panel showing signal input. On heavy bass scenes it does light up and go solid but on normal talk scenes it either just flashes or is off. Im not sure if it is supposed to remain solid on signifying it has the proper input level. I have the input gain fully clockwise like the manual states to do. I was getting some subwoofer ground loop hum and maybe if I get the samson s convert I could turn the input gain down some to lower the hum. I also want to make sure im getting all the headroom these dts's allow.

I was told by a Danley Dealer that these dts-10's like a lot of power to keep full headroom on fast bass scenes. He suggested me to buy a second 9200 and run them in bridge mode. I would then have each one doing a single dts-10. The crest which would then have 6500 watts BRIDGED. Now I am using the single one in parrellel mode with each channel doing a single dts-10. Oh so many thoughts going through my mind.

The lights are operating as they should They only get signal when there is LFE content. Based on the specs you should not need two. One is plenty.

Do you ever get the clip lights to go on?

It is interesting that the gain knob is set to full?

Hopefully Ivan will chime in.

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post #5083 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 12:51 PM
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A crest CPX3800 is 1300 watts both channels driven into 4 ohms. It appears it is not able to be driven bridged.

It has a 5 year warranty.
It is on Ebay for $595 shipping included.

Is this a good value? Is this a good option to drive DTS-10(s)
one or two?

It seems like considering the Crest reputation it is a good value?

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post #5084 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by t6902wf View Post

A crest CPX3800 is 1300 watts both channels driven into 4 ohms. It appears it is not able to be driven bridged.

It has a 5 year warranty.
It is on Ebay for $595 shipping included.

Is this a good value? Is this a good option to drive DTS-10(s)
one or two?

It seems like considering the Crest reputation it is a good value?

I read further and saw Made in China on the back panel.
Forget I asked.

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post #5085 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 01:31 PM
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For that price, why not just get two EP4000s?

You could run one off of each amp, 4 or 8 ohms bridged depending on your power/output requirements.
Then if one failed you could get away with running both off of one 4 ohms bridged temporarily.

They aren't the world's best amps, but bang for the buck they are unbeatable. Also, you can easily do a fan mod or move them to a closet or other room.

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post #5086 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

For that price, why not just get two EP4000s?

You could run one off of each amp, 4 or 8 ohms bridged depending on your power/output requirements.
Then if one failed you could get away with running both off of one 4 ohms bridged temporarily.

They aren't the world's best amps, but bang for the buck they are unbeatable. Also, you can easily do a fan mod or move them to a closet or other room.

+1 on the EP4000.

I was concerned about buying this amp given alll the "they aren't the world's best amps" rhetoric but after doing the REVERSIBLE fan modification I can't see why anyone would spend more. Best $350 bucks I've spent.

Louis
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post #5087 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Mathelo View Post

+1 on the EP4000.

I was concerned about buying this amp given alll the "they aren't the world's best amps" rhetoric but after doing the REVERSIBLE fan modification I can't see why anyone would spend more. Best $350 bucks I've spent.

Louis

Louis, is there a place here in the forum that you can point me too for instructions on the fan mod? I can't find anything with a quick search. Thanks.

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post #5088 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

robobob, I didn't make myself clear I don't think. The channel level on my processor (for the sub channel) is at -5db. My master volume never goes past 00db, most movies are watched at -12db. When in the mood for "really loud", about -6db on the master volume.

The gain knob on the subwoofer amplifier is at about 30% power (roughly 10 o'clock).

Sound okay?

LOL Tony! of course its OK! Just trying to be helpful.

Yeah, I meant the Sub level setting. These days most quality processors/receivers do the master volume (MV) in the analog domain.

Personally only, I like to have the gain control on the sub as close to wide open as possible such that I can set the sub/LFE ouput level between 0 and -9 so we are on the same page.

Some have reported less dynamics when setting up the gain structure with the signal at 0 and the sub or amp gain correspondingly lower and that has been my experience. Better to have the "door" open, the amp's gain/sensitivity up at the point that the source signal has a wider range to drive through, even if it means lowering the sub output setting. e.g. Sub gain higher and sub output from processor at -8

As always, YMMV in this area of tweaking.

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post #5089 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

As has been stated MANY times before- it is NOT the impedance of the driver that matters-but the impedance that the COMBINATION of the cabinet and the driver represent to the amplifier that matters.

Since the pair presents basically a 4 ohm load to the amp-each driver should be around 8 ohms- I have not measured them individually and do not have the time to now.

Yes a VOM will measure a low RESISTANCE-but wire resistance IS NOT impedance and your amp will see the total IMPEDANCE load- NOT resistance. They are related-but are very different.


Seems like a very clear statement to me. I think this can only be interpreted as a definitive statement from Danley Sound Labs: the DTS-10 presents a 4 ohm load to an amplifier.

Now, in order to clarify and summarize some things in my own mind, I need to re-visit briefly an issue that arose earlier in this thread: the use of the Velodyne SC-1250 amplifier with this sub. According to page 15 in its manual (http://media.onecall.com/Image_Produ...ual_lowres.pdf), the SC-1250 is comfortable with a 4 ohm subwoofer. So, it is understandable that some posters have asserted that this amp is workable with the DTS-10 in terms of its power specs (1250 watts RMS, 3000 Dynamic) as well as its handling of a 4 ohm load. I would like this to be true, because much of the SC-1250's feature set is quite appealing to me (auto on/off, remote control, 7-band eq, etc.).

On the other hand, I also gathered from my readings in this thread that the SC-1250's architecture contains a non-defeatable (?) low frequency filter, so that it will not power any sonic information below 18hz. This filtering has been identified as a weakness when used with a sub like the DTS-10, which can go considerably lower...to around 10-11hz. I understand this reasoning and why missing those lowest frequencies can be considered a downside. At the same time, however, I was wondering how much information below 18hz is actually recorded on soundtracks. I mean...somewhere I got the idea that nothing below 20hz is utilized in the mixing. Don't really know if that is correct---anyone know for sure?

In any event, what I'm trying to do right now is nail down an adequate understanding and description of what to expect if the DTS-10 is powered by a Velodyne SC-1250? Any comments or corrections are welcome.

Tom


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post #5090 of 10088 Old 03-12-2010, 07:16 PM
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If there was no content there would be no need for this product
Basically you are in for an awakening. The are loads of movies out there, old and new with sub 20hz content. If you've got the SC-1250 already then give it a go with the DTS-10, if not there are obviously better options out there to suit your needs.

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post #5091 of 10088 Old 03-13-2010, 05:49 AM
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I can't seem to get my metal grill to line up with the provided screw holes at the port. Anyone else have trouble? I could drill them out and use washers, but would rather not.

Also, the "boing" sound of the horn is something I'm going to try and tone down some today. I've got a bunch of 1" Linacoustic. I'll use it where I can.

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post #5092 of 10088 Old 03-13-2010, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

I can't seem to get my metal grill to line up with the provided screw holes at the port. Anyone else have trouble? I could drill them out and use washers, but would rather not.

Also, the "boing" sound of the horn is something I'm going to try and tone down some today. I've got a bunch of 1" Linacoustic. I'll use it where I can.

Apparently they are not made to line up, yet I thought the grill called out the use of machine screws on the B.O.M. You could use wood screws like some others did, I didn't want to do that either.
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post #5093 of 10088 Old 03-13-2010, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post

...Basically you are in for an awakening. The are loads of movies out there, old and new with sub 20hz content...

I watched the movie '9' last night. I don't know if the bass is sub 20hz but this movie is loaded with low bass content. Everything was shaking!
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post #5094 of 10088 Old 03-13-2010, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by robobob View Post

LOL Tony! of course its OK! Just trying to be helpful.

Yeah, I meant the Sub level setting. These days most quality processors/receivers do the master volume (MV) in the analog domain.

Personally only, I like to have the gain control on the sub as close to wide open as possible such that I can set the sub/LFE ouput level between 0 and -9 so we are on the same page.

Some have reported less dynamics when setting up the gain structure with the signal at 0 and the sub or amp gain correspondingly lower and that has been my experience. Better to have the "door" open, the amp's gain/sensitivity up at the point that the source signal has a wider range to drive through, even if it means lowering the sub output setting. e.g. Sub gain higher and sub output from processor at -8

As always, YMMV in this area of tweaking.

Thanks. I'm going to play around a bit with this.

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post #5095 of 10088 Old 03-13-2010, 08:19 AM
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Louis, is there a place here in the forum that you can point me too for instructions on the fan mod? I can't find anything with a quick search. Thanks.

If you Google "EP2500 fan mod", you'll find what you need. Here is an example:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...er-ep2500.html

The mod is very simple and really doesn't require any directions if you are use to opening up a computer and switching components. It is nothing more than switching out a fan in a computer.

The key bit is making sure you purchase the correct 24v fan:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...&name=P9739-ND

And to make it truely reversible also purchase a two pin plug as the fan doesn't come with one.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...name=P11031-ND

You can use the plug that is on the EP4000 fan but than it won't be reversible. I had an old fan in my computer junk box and just used its plug.

Using heat shrink tubing for the fan wires is a nice finishing touch but probably not essential.

Hope this helps.

Louis
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post #5096 of 10088 Old 03-13-2010, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robobob View Post

...Personally only, I like to have the gain control on the sub as close to wide open as possible such that I can set the sub/LFE ouput level between 0 and -9 so we are on the same page.

Some have reported less dynamics when setting up the gain structure with the signal at 0 and the sub or amp gain correspondingly lower and that has been my experience. Better to have the "door" open, the amp's gain/sensitivity up at the point that the source signal has a wider range to drive through, even if it means lowering the sub output setting. e.g. Sub gain higher and sub output from processor at -8

As always, YMMV in this area of tweaking.

Robobob

I have to assume you aren't using Audyssey in this process. When I calibrate with Audyssey it forces me to adjust the amp gain to the 75db level before it will advance. This puts the amp at about 50% gain (18/32 on the EP4000) and my Denon 4810CI with Audyssey engaged is at 2.5+.

This is also passing through a QSC 30 with the input sensitivity set at 4.0 volts (I think).

Does this look okay to you or should I be looking for a way to get the processor output down below 0?

Thanks!

Louis
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post #5097 of 10088 Old 03-13-2010, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

I can't seem to get my metal grill to line up with the provided screw holes at the port. Anyone else have trouble? I could drill them out and use washers, but would rather not.

Also, the "boing" sound of the horn is something I'm going to try and tone down some today. I've got a bunch of 1" Linacoustic. I'll use it where I can.

The parts list on page 1 of this thread states 34 machine screws are required, 24 for the two access panels and 10 for securing one mouth cover. Machine screws are not used for the grill.

Elsewhere in the thread it has been mentioned to use wood screws & washers for the grill, with emphasis to first lay down a foam strip around the mouth to avoid noisy grill vibrations. I found the holes in the grill will accept rubber grommets 1/4" in diameter and allow the grill to sit far enough away from the wood to avoid grill vibrations completely. (no need for the foam strip)

However, if I were you I would avoid using the grill altogether. I had put mine on but took it off right away after hearing how much air turbulence noise there was from the grill at 13Hz with just 10 Watts of input power. (I can just imagine how much noisier it would be at 100 Watts)
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post #5098 of 10088 Old 03-13-2010, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stereo2.0 View Post

The parts list on page 1 of this thread states 34 machine screws are required, 24 for the two access panels and 10 for securing one mouth cover. Machine screws are not used for the grill.

Elsewhere in the thread it has been mentioned to use wood screws & washers for the grill, with emphasis to first lay down a foam strip around the mouth to avoid noisy grill vibrations. I found the holes in the grill will accept rubber grommets 1/4" in diameter and allow the grill to sit far enough away from the wood to avoid grill vibrations completely. (no need for the foam strip)

However, if I were you I would avoid using the grill altogether. I had put mine on but took it off right away after hearing how much air turbulence noise there was from the grill at 13Hz with just 10 Watts of input power. (I can just imagine how much noisier it would be at 100 Watts)

The mouth on mine is facing the wall (highly recommended if you can try it) so I don't need to attach the grill. Kind of stinks though cause I think the grill looks really nice when its on.


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post #5099 of 10088 Old 03-13-2010, 09:51 AM
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Is there anyone in California (more southern) that would be willing to demo their DTS-10. I have been interested in the DTS-10 for a while but would like to listen to it before I "go all in" with two. I got a buddy and a long time enthusiast interested in listening to this beast and we would expect to drive 3-4hrs to have a listen. Anyone
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post #5100 of 10088 Old 03-13-2010, 10:09 AM
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Robobob

I have to assume you aren't using Audyssey in this process. When I calibrate with Audyssey it forces me to adjust the amp gain to the 75db level before it will advance. This puts the amp at about 50% gain (18/32 on the EP4000) and my Denon 4810CI with Audyssey engaged is at 2.5+.

This is also passing through a QSC 30 with the input sensitivity set at 4.0 volts (I think).

Does this look okay to you or should I be looking for a way to get the processor output down below 0?

Thanks!

Louis

Hey Louis:

Your assumption is correct; I have not tuned a room using Audessey in the signal chain.

I also had the QSC 30's sensitivity level set to 4v and this allowed the gain on the Behringer 2500 to be set near max, based upon the output level of the processor. With the QSC 30, you have the added flexibility to set the gain level in one of its software blocks.

Are you using both the QSC-30 and the Audessey? May I assume that is for the benefits of the Audessey above the subwoofer range?

If so, you can comply with what Audessey dictates, to get the benefits of its algorithm, then measure what it has done for use as a reference in the sub range. After that, proceed with the QSC 30 EQ using the Audessey's results as a reference to improve upon.

Not knocking Audessey but as a hands-on engineer type, I dislike black box/automated systems that limit options (no pun intended). Can you get the benefits you are after in the upper range from Audessey and manually tell it what YOU want it to do down in the sub range?

If not, I would do the EQ for the sub FIRST using the QSC 30, using whatever gain structure (amp gain - QSC gain - MV of processor at reference) allows the amp's gain to be near its upper end and THEN leaving the amp gain alone and the QSC 30 in the signal chain, just set the gain down in the QSC 30, if necessary to get to 75dB to make Audessey happy during its calibration of the upper range as a second step. If the Audessey algorithm is sophisticated enough AND you have done a good job with your QSC 30 EQ, Audessey SHOULD do much less adjustment to the sub range on top of your EQ, since it will see the flatter room response you have created in the sub and sub-to-main crossover range.

Critical to this is that you place the Audessey mike in the same location that you optimized as the primary listener position in your QSC 30 EQ.

When Audessey is done and has made the improvements to the upper range that you are looking for, simply go back and turn up the gain block in the QSC 30 to taste, getting as near to the original setting you used during your QSC 30 EQ process as measures well and sounds good to your ears. Or if you don't want a "house curve" or boost, just leave the gain block level in the QSC 30 alone, since you have achieved the goal: the gain control on the amp is nearer to max.

If the main reason for using the Audessey is for sub-to-main integration, personally I would bypass Audessey (after getting a measurement of its best shot at EQ to use as a reference) and utilize the QSC 30 alone. You have complete control (and responsibility ) over the low end EQ.

Again, I have made several assumptions about your goals in this post so take it with a grain of salt. Hope this helps!

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