Danley DTS-10 "Super Spud" DIY kit - Page 339 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10141 of 10160 Old 04-26-2015, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grap3 View Post
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. What's a filter?


I don't know - I've been asking for over a number of years in this thread as to why my drivers keep dying and no one can give me an answer.


I'm on the verge of either fixing mine or getting rid of it entirely - an assembled kit only, my drivers and replacement drivers are fried. If I were to get rid of it, would you be interested? I'm located in the Chicagoland area.
I am definitely interested. Sent PM earlier today. Please let me know.

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post #10142 of 10160 Old 04-27-2015, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post
A 12.5Hz 4th order Butterworth high pass filter of at least 24 dB/octave is required.
Does this hold true in cases where the wattage being fed is nowhere near its limit (e.g. 500w/cabinet)?I.e. does one risk damaging the drivers if one does not use a high pass filter and only feeds the cabinet 500 watts?

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post #10143 of 10160 Old 04-27-2015, 03:34 PM
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It's basically a bass reflex below its ~13 Hz minima, so will exceed Xmax at just a small fraction of its rated power by ~10 Hz and a half octave away maybe can handle a few watts, though of course it can handle a bit more before 'letting its smoke out' from bouncing the VC off the back plate too hard at Xmech assuming it doesn't rip its surround first, which often results in cocking the VC in the gap, cooking it.

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post #10144 of 10160 Old 04-27-2015, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post
...A 12.5Hz 4th order Butterworth high pass filter of at least 24 dB/octave is required.
The Danley website spec sheet for the DTS-10 still lists this:
"Recommended Processing................................ 10 Hz HP @ 24dB/Butterworth"

Unfortunately I still bottomed out one of the drivers and bent the voice coil former while using a HPF tuned to 12Hz.
However, since I've raised the cutoff to 14Hz I haven't had that problem again.
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post #10145 of 10160 Old 04-27-2015, 10:41 PM
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Interesting! This should protect it if it's 24 dB octave, implying that there's a minor air leak somewhere. Have you measured it, i.e. an impedance plot?

GM

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post #10146 of 10160 Old 04-28-2015, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPM View Post
Interesting! This should protect it if it's 24 dB octave, implying that there's a minor air leak somewhere. Have you measured it, i.e. an impedance plot?GM
No, I never made an impedance plot before, but I did have an air leak once when one of the screws holding a driver in place vibrated itself out.
From that experience I learned what an air leak sounds like, and that internal tooth lock washers just don't work well with drivers. (That's all the store had when I was first putting it together)
I found another store that had external tooth lock washers and replaced them all soon after. The screws haven't loosened one bit since then.

I've learned that a 12Hz HPF at 24dB/Oct just isn't enough if there's strong infrasonic material (STS-123 launch) played at too high a volume.
My room tends to null out <15Hz material anyway so I raised the HPF a couple of Hertz and all was well again.
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post #10147 of 10160 Old 04-29-2015, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post
Does this hold true in cases where the wattage being fed is nowhere near its limit (e.g. 500w/cabinet)?I.e. does one risk damaging the drivers if one does not use a high pass filter and only feeds the cabinet 500 watts?
Damage can definitely still occur using 'less' power, but yeah, the more power you have the more potential for damage. The problem being below tune nothing is controlling cone excursion, so it may not take much power if there is a particularly hot track being played.

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Originally Posted by stereo2.0 View Post
The Danley website spec sheet for the DTS-10 still lists this:
"Recommended Processing................................ 10 Hz HP @ 24dB/Butterworth"

Unfortunately I still bottomed out one of the drivers and bent the voice coil former while using a HPF tuned to 12Hz.
However, since I've raised the cutoff to 14Hz I haven't had that problem again.
I pulled the 12.5 Hz spec off of the test at Data-Bass; figured it would match the Danley info...must have changed, not a huge difference though. I suppose that the accuracy of whatever device being used to implement the filter comes into play as well...
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post #10148 of 10160 Old 05-06-2015, 01:55 PM
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I'm in the process of buying two JTR Captivator 1400's to go with my DTS-10 and QSC4050. The Cap's would go on the rear wall behind the LP with the DTS-10 corner loaded on the front left. I also have four HSU ULF15's left over from a client.

The JTR's have a tremendous amount of output from 15 Hz to the upper mid bass. My thought was to crossover the DTS-10 at 60 Hz to avoid ringing and use the HSU's to make up the difference up front. Then balance the combined output with the dual Captivators in the rear.

I'm not sure how they will integrate together. Jeff suggested selling my DTS-10 and QSC 4050 to get a third Captivator for better in integration. My theater opens on two sides to a 10,000 cf open floor plan so I need all the help I can get with LFE.

Any suggestions to integrate the above system. Would I be better off selling the DTS-10 for a third Cap?
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post #10149 of 10160 Old 05-07-2015, 11:01 AM
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Other than whether there's a cost savings switching to the JTR I can only note that WRT 'blending' at 60 Hz on down, consider that you're dealing with WLs > ~1130 ft/60 = ~18.8 ft long in a room only fractionally bigger, so from a hearing standpoint it's just pressure waves 'sloshing' around like thick mud in a box; all the 'blending' will be occurring much higher up in the BW between all the other subs and of course the mains they mate to.

WRT room gain, it begins in earnest below the room's first eigenmode, which unfortunately for you is ~1130/2/49 = ~11.53 Hz, so no useful gain beyond local boundary loading unless your sub system has significant output down to near Dc.

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post #10150 of 10160 Old 05-09-2015, 05:07 AM
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Need a little help here. I ordered 4 of the alpine drivers for my dts-10s a few weeks ago.

I ordered the 2 ohm drivers but upon opening the boxes yesterday I was send the 4 ohm versions.

I'm not well versed in wiring, ohms, etc .

how should I wore these up? The Danley drivers just had the two speaker terminals on the driver. These alpine drivers have 4 (2 positive, 2 negative per driver). They did come with jumpers.

Would I just wire them the way the factory drovers were and use the jumpers on the extra terminals?

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post #10151 of 10160 Old 05-09-2015, 07:30 AM
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Example 5 in the owner's manual will get you a 4 ohm load to a single amp [or bridged] channel, i.e. each driver's VCs are wired in series, then the driver's are wired in parallel.

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post #10152 of 10160 Old 05-09-2015, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPM View Post
Example 5 in the owner's manual will get you a 4 ohm load to a single amp [or bridged] channel, i.e. each driver's VCs are wired in series, then the driver's are wired in parallel.

GM

Thanks,

Cuious do you have a link to the example? I don't have the owners manual for the dts-10s. I'd love to see a pic of how it's wired.

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post #10153 of 10160 Old 05-09-2015, 08:18 AM
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You're welcome! I meant the driver owner's manual that should have been sent with them: http://support.alpine-usa.com/produc...2_4_12D2_4.pdf

GM

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post #10154 of 10160 Old 05-09-2015, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by GPM View Post
You're welcome! I meant the driver owner's manual that should have been sent with them: http://support.alpine-usa.com/produc...2_4_12D2_4.pdf

GM
thanks again!

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post #10155 of 10160 Old 05-09-2015, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPM View Post
Other than whether there's a cost savings switching to the JTR I can only note that WRT 'blending' at 60 Hz on down, consider that you're dealing with WLs > ~1130 ft/60 = ~18.8 ft long in a room only fractionally bigger, so from a hearing standpoint it's just pressure waves 'sloshing' around like thick mud in a box; all the 'blending' will be occurring much higher up in the BW between all the other subs and of course the mains they mate to.

WRT room gain, it begins in earnest below the room's first eigenmode, which unfortunately for you is ~1130/2/49 = ~11.53 Hz, so no useful gain beyond local boundary loading unless your sub system has significant output down to near Dc.

GM
Wasn't sure how to interpret this as to my question whether it would be better to keep the DTS-10 or get another Captivator for my situation.

As I understand it the DTS has ringing in the higher bass so I got a BFD-1124 notch filter and planned to cross it over around 50-60 Hz (The Danley spec sheet shows +/- 3 db extension from 15 Hz - 60Hz). That means I need something in the front of the room for between 50 Hz and 90 Hz to blend it with my mains, that's why I was considering the four HSU ULF-15's. As sealed subs, they're fast enough to blend with the Martin Logan electrostsats and easy to EQ for the transition between the woofers in the ML's and the DTS.

However, If I'm not going to get any room gain until 11 Hz then the extension of the DTS to 10 Hz may not help me anyway.

The DTS-10 and QSC 4050 are paid for. However, veneering the DTS 10 in Teak to match our theater woodwork is about $600 labor and $200 teak veneer. So about $800 out of pocket to finish. If I sold them, the QSC and DTS-10 are probably worth about $800 each so it would free up about $1,600 for another Captivator-1400.

The four HSU-ULF15's were from a family member that wants me to sell his whole system. He's probably going to give me the HSU's to repay an outstanding debt. I could keep them to use for the upper mid bass between the Martin Logan's and the DTS-10 or sell them for about $700 each. That would definitely pay for a third Captivator if I kept the DTS or a fourth Captivator if I sold the DTS/QSC.

I have to make a decision this weekend as the JTR pre-sale ends next Friday.
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post #10156 of 10160 Old 05-09-2015, 10:14 PM
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Only one way to interpret it since I'm not you and have no clue how well the electronics blend everything together WRT your hearing, so all I can say is that there's no reason to swap the DTS10 for another JTR to get an audibly better blend due to using a 60 Hz/4th order XO since our hearing acuity down this low combined with the sheer size of the WLs WRT your room size renders it moot.

If you have some other reason though; such as cost, size, whatever to justify the swap, then do it.

Of much more importance is how well the HSUs will blend to the JTRs and the mains, surrounds. Only one way to tell though.

WRT the DTS10's LF output, it will extend it a little lower, though this may not be enough to justify the lack of 'punch' higher up that the JTR can add.

The HSUs can be used to acoustically flatten the room response, especially if any can be mounted up on the walls to fill in the floor/ceiling dips.

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post #10157 of 10160 Old 05-10-2015, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPM View Post
Only one way to interpret it since I'm not you and have no clue how well the electronics blend everything together GM
I currently have a Marantz AV8801, however I was considering getting the MiniDSP 1x10 or the DiracHT units


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Originally Posted by GPM View Post
so all I can say is that there's no reason to swap the DTS10 for another JTR to get an audibly better blend due to using a 60 Hz/4th order XO since our hearing acuity down this low combined with the sheer size of the WLs WRT your room size renders it moot.

WRT the DTS10's LF output, it will extend it a little lower, though this may not be enough to justify the lack of 'punch' higher up that the JTR can add.
GM
That's my point that the HSU's are needed to fill the gap between the Martin Logan woofers and the DTS in the front of the room. Without the HSU's, the mid-bass from the Captivators on the rear will be greater than the DTS by itself on the front wall. This will create problems with bass localization on movies and smearing the bass on music.

The JTR graph that Jeff posted showed flat to 16 Hz then a roll off below that. My room doesn't start to see room gain until 11 Hz. I had figured that at 133 db capability on the DTS-10 plus reinforcing it's gain by corner loading it's "mouth" at the front left corner/floor boundary would create enough ULF gain to be adequate in a 39' x 49' 10,000 cf room. If that's not the case then I'm adding complexity and loosing the mid-bass slam of a third Captivator for ULF room gain that I'm never going to see anyway.


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Originally Posted by GPM View Post
Of much more importance is how well the HSUs will blend to the JTRs and the mains, surrounds. Only one way to tell though.

The HSUs can be used to acoustically flatten the room response, especially if any can be mounted up on the walls to fill in the floor/ceiling dips.
GM

That's the point that the sealed HSU's are faster to blend with the Martin Logan Stats.

The whole issue may be moot as my family member and I are still in negotiation over me selling all his old gear and installing a completely new system in their next house. There is a $2k debt owed from other contracting work I did on their last house and I had proposed to take the Quad HSU's he's selling instead of cash payment. He may want me to sell the subs with everything else and just pay me instead.

If that happens then the issue of less FR above 60 Hz for the DTS-10 makes a third Cap more appealing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun
Oh I didn't know you were keeping the danleys. Im surprised people have advised you to run a tapped horn along with a ported. Most people say you shouldn't ever mix alignments and if absolutely must do so then you should use sealed. Maybe ask in a post about it?
I this a problem because of phase alignment? Am I better off swapping the Danley DTS-10 with a third Cap-1400?

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post #10158 of 10160 Old 05-10-2015, 05:45 PM
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I currently have a Marantz AV8801, however I was considering getting the MiniDSP 1x10 or the DiracHT units
Looks really good on paper, but no experience with any of these. My active time with advanced [prosound] systems ended in 2000 when we were still stacking CRT projectors to get some semblance of film quality out of up scaled 480p and delays were mostly done physically with XOs just for fine tuning, but you did remind me I need to address some misunderstandings I've seen posted here WRT a TH's effective acoustic offset [delay].

I'm really curious how well these receivers, outboard processors measure this, especially in room.

Quote:
That's my point that the HSU's are needed to fill the gap between the Martin Logan woofers and the DTS in the front of the room. Without the HSU's, the mid-bass from the Captivators on the rear will be greater than the DTS by itself on the front wall. This will create problems with bass localization on movies and smearing the bass on music.
Correct, hence my remarks with a ‘best use’ location variation.

Quote:
The JTR graph that Jeff posted showed flat to 16 Hz then a roll off below that. My room doesn't start to see room gain until 11 Hz. I had figured that at 133 db capability on the DTS-10 plus reinforcing it's gain by corner loading it's "mouth" at the front left corner/floor boundary would create enough ULF gain to be adequate in a 39' x 49' 10,000 cf room. If that's not the case then I'm adding complexity and loosing the mid-bass slam of a third Captivator for ULF room gain that I'm never going to see anyway.
Has a DTS10 been independently measured this high in half space [ground plane] to below ~20 Hz? If so, then it should be plenty loud enough considering your relative closeness to it.

Quote:
That's the point that the sealed HSU's are faster to blend with the Martin Logan Stats.
Please define ‘faster’ as it means different things to different folks these days thanks to various marketing depts. over the decades and having learned from the pioneers, I’m very ‘old school’.

Quote:
If that happens then the issue of less FR above 60 Hz for the DTS-10 makes a third Cap more appealing.
Or buy your own ‘faster’ subs, which the various Captivators don’t appear to be at glance [by my definition].

Quote:
“Im surprised people have advised you to run a tapped horn along with a ported. Most people say you shouldn't ever mix alignments and if absolutely must do so then you should use sealed. Maybe ask in a post about it?”

I this a problem because of phase alignment? Am I better off swapping the Danley DTS-10 with a third Cap-1400?
Tell this to Dr. Earl Geddes, he uses sealed, ported, 4th, 6th order BPs in his HT IIRC and has literally ‘written the book’ on modern day sound system integration, so there’s a lot of misinformation out ‘in the wild’. For sure though, using all the same does make it easier for the casual DIYer and makes it less challenging for lower end electronics to sync.

GM

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post #10159 of 10160 Unread Today, 09:13 AM
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Last night I went to watch GoT in the theater room and I noticed that the green light on my Behrenger EP4000 that I use to power my DTS-10 was not lit. It has been used in bridged mono mode and worked well for years.

I did some troubleshooting and found that the breaker switch in the back keeps tripping, even with nothing plugged in to the amp.

The amps have an impressive 3 year warranty on them but I bought this in 2011 so it is out of warranty. The other one I have is powering my JTR Growler and my tranducers and it is still working fine.

I ordered a new behrenger and it will be here on Thursday.

Do you guys think I should mess with trying to get this one repaired or just chuck it out?

What are the chances the drivers on my Danley are now ruined? I'm afraid of what I find out when I try to power it all on Thursday night...

My perpetual home theater build - Omaha Theater #5
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post #10160 of 10160 Unread Today, 09:33 AM
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What are the chances the drivers on my Danley are now ruined? I'm afraid of what I find out when I try to power it all on Thursday night...
I'm sure the Danley is ruined. I'll come pick it up and take it to the dump for you. Does 7pm work?

Millard Electronics has repaired amps for me, but wasn't able to fix one of them. I was out the diagnostic fee of around $75. The others cost around $150 each for labor/parts. With the EP4000 being readily available for $300, I would probably not try to fix the old one locally. There may be a Behringer repair center you could send it to.
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