Danley DTS-10 "Super Spud" DIY kit - Page 42 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-16-2009, 09:39 PM
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"Noah, Can you share what your modeling showed for the DTS-10 in terms of max output (and corresponding excursions) at 11, 20, 32, 40 and 50 Hz ?"

All I did was compare what the DTS-10 measured outdoors - equivalent to 90 dB/1 W/1 m - with any number of Mael 18's in a 25 cf box.

Adding 18's to the box raised reference efficiency but did hardly anything to help output at 11 Hz - Hoffman prevails.

The only thing that would help is multiples of drivers AND boxes; it took for to match the DTS-10.

Not sure how WinISD assumptions change things wrt to outdoor measurement.

"I also don't recall Tom making the 123 dB claim at 11 Hz. He posted a graph showing 90 dB @ one watt."

I believe it said somewhere earlier in the thread that they gave it 1000 W at 11 Hz, so that would be 120 dB w/o compression.

And that's outdoors, it will be way more in a room.

Noah
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Old 11-16-2009, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Ok ... so we add 20 dB and end up with what looks to be about 102 dB at 20 Hz and 135 dB at around 100 Hz.

I also don't recall Tom making the 123 dB claim at 11 Hz. He posted a graph showing 90 dB @ one watt.

Keep in mind the Pi12 and BassMaxx featured in those graphs have a significantly shorter throat resulting in a higher tuning and higher efficiency at the midbass (40 - 100hz) where most music is dominant; designed for concert venues.

Also, those horns are designed to be mutually coupled in arrays. A single horn will exhibit a very different response than an array of them. You'll rarely ever find a single one. The basic rule is to have them either less than a quarter-wavelength apart or more than two wavelengths apart for their pass band, which for 40 to 100 Hz means less than 2.8 feet or more than 56 feet.

The TH and THT both feature longer throats yielding better response for Home Theater. They are also designed to be run as singles but will benefit from boundary loading.
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Old 11-16-2009, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the shape of a fireworks blast is pretty interesting too. all appear to have a W shape. first half-step down, then full step up, then full step down, then half step up.

I was going to coment on the sonic boom, but reading on, Tom got it

BTW.. having done some research and emailing the Navy, did you know a sonic boom is constant? There isn't a single boom as the barrier is breached, rather, once super sonic is reached, as they fly by, the boom follows from the N wave.... so if they approach california already supersonic and fly across the continental US (which they can not ever do) there will be a boom heard all the way across as it passes.
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Old 11-16-2009, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

I'm not sure if this was meant as a joke or not, but this is my experience. A few months ago we had tornados and a massive thunder storm that took place very close to my house. The lightning was striking within a 2km radius. It actually struck someone's yard. Two of these strikes were so strong, I felt it through the concrete floor of my apartment building. This is a 20 story apartment building. The sound was much louder than any firework display I've ever heard/felt and I've been to the Bensen Hedges Symphony of Fire. I was excited because I've never heard/felt anything like that in my life.

strikes are EXTREMELY loud within 100 yards. Sounds like it is right there on you.... I was 10 or 11 and I'll never forget a strike that I would guess to be about 100 yards or more away. I wonder what SPL measurments register 1 mile away...2 or 3 miles.
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Old 11-17-2009, 01:55 AM
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Alot of the DIY Pro builders prefer PL Premium adhesive over Titebond or white carpenters glue. I used this in my recent Tuba HT horn build. I really liked it's thick consistency. It made it easier to join the panels as the panels seem to stick to it better versus traditional carpenters glue where the viscosity is higher and the panels slip around more.

And as PL Premium is thicker any overflow acts as caulk ensuring there are no leaks. It also doesn't crack.

Here's some interesting tests with PL Premium

Ivan: Do you think PL Premium would work in this application or is white glue a better choice?

I got tired of arguing this... glad to see someone else. I have 2 large caulk gins and I use PL200, PL400, and PLPro all the time, have for years and years.

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I just realized I don't have binding posts. That's what I want for connecting to my amp but I really don't want to wait for them from parts express. Anyone know if they have them at home depot or lowes? If they don't I guess I will order some and just drill the 1/4" holes to run straight wire through until I get them. Seal them off with some silicon I guess and just drill it back out when the posts come in.

bolts and nuts! predrill a tad tight or spot on, 1 bolt on the inside, 2 bolts on the outside...secures the bolt to the box and wires to the now terminals

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Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

That I don't know. Truthfully if you wanted an all in one option you could get a decent plate amp that puts out around 1000 watts and install it in the side panel. And you have to keep in mind that Danley sells an amp with dsp that would be an exact fit for this. I haven't really thought of the amp options too much. You have to remember that this won't "require" much power to get loud but can handle up to 1000 watts so any amp that will put out that much would work.

Also everyone should check the measuring amps thread for actual wattages put out by some popular amps.

The new ep2000 would work and be quiet with a fan mod.

this "insanely loud on 29 watts" yet "easily would handle 1000-2000 watts" is still bothering me. BTW, the Danley plate amp that fits is 500 watts, but from what I gather, at least 1000 is preffered. Effortless. Dynamic. Blah blah.

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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I'd have to guess that it was actually the 16hz tone doing the pants flapping Brandon mentioned. There's also a meaty 30hz and 25hz set. The 7-8hz is completely missed by nearly all systems and unless it is cranked you won't even know it's there. Heck a lot also miss or fumble the 16hz one.

was thinkin the same thing... u know I got this song mezmerized, it plays over and over in my head, even when i'm sleeping. the other day my woman shook me awake and said "sh! I can hear that comin out of your ears! Even that low note!"
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Old 11-17-2009, 05:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mynym View Post

Keep in mind the Pi12 and BassMaxx featured in those graphs have a significantly shorter throat resulting in a higher tuning and higher efficiency at the midbass (40 - 100hz) where most music is dominant; designed for concert venues.

Also, those horns are designed to be mutually coupled in arrays. A single horn will exhibit a very different response than an array of them. You'll rarely ever find a single one. The basic rule is to have them either less than a quarter-wavelength apart or more than two wavelengths apart for their pass band, which for 40 to 100 Hz means less than 2.8 feet or more than 56 feet.

The TH and THT both feature longer throats yielding better response for Home Theater. They are also designed to be run as singles but will benefit from boundary loading.

I am aware that these were shorter horns, but I was not the individual using that graph to make a point.

Now ... let's discuss power handling of dual Lab-12's. In the following sealed boxes, a pair of Lab-12's will each have the following (one way) excursions for a 0.51 inch X-max driver:

4 Cubic feet @ 400 watts = 0.58 inches
10 cubic feet @ 150 Watts = 0.55 inches

But we can now send 1000 watts into a TH design @ 11 Hz and get zero compression?

Edit - Keep in mind that no one from Danley is making this claim. I have followed Tom's work for years, and he is quite sensible. One of his papers discusses why room gain of 12 dB per octave is not happening unless one is in a concrete bunker. He is quite correct.

It is, without any testing to back it up, conclusions being drawn by some of the members here that has gotten this conversation to the point where a single DTS-10 can deliver in excess of 120 dB free space at 11 Hz. No one can confirm this, but rather we are merely adding 30 dB (or 33, depending on which optimistic member it is) to the one watt measurement.
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Old 11-17-2009, 06:04 AM
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120db @11hz free space or in room would be quite the feat either way from a pair of 12s with a 1000 watts IMO.
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Old 11-17-2009, 06:26 AM
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It would be very nice to get output vs distortion measurements (or sweeps with increasing power levels to see when power compression kicks in) both from the folks who have built it at home and from Danley folks themselves with the prototype they have already done a freq. sweep on....

I'm sure it will be impressive, but 1000 Watts in at 16Hz does seem to me that it may not be a clean, undistorted 16Hz tone being produced...

JSS
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Old 11-17-2009, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

I am aware that these were shorter horns, but I was not the individual using that graph to make a point.

Now ... let's discuss power handling of dual Lab-12's. In the following sealed boxes, a pair of Lab-12's will each have the following (one way) excursions for a 0.51 inch X-max driver:

4 Cubic feet @ 400 watts = 0.58 inches
10 cubic feet @ 150 Watts = 0.55 inches

But we can now send 1000 watts into a TH design @ 11 Hz and get zero compression?

Edit - Keep in mind that no one from Danley is making this claim. I have followed Tom's work for years, and he is quite sensible. One of his papers discusses why room gain of 12 dB per octave is not happening unless one is in a concrete bunker. He is quite correct.

It is, without any testing to back it up, conclusions being drawn by some of the members here that has gotten this conversation to the point where a single DTS-10 can deliver in excess of 120 dB free space at 11 Hz. No one can confirm this, but rather we are merely adding 30 dB (or 33, depending on which optimistic member it is) to the one watt measurement.

Tom mentioned that max excursion occurs at 16Hz. There and below the corner is where harmonic distortion will be the problem, which those who've actually followed this thread already know I've mentioned.

You asked about models and I answered the question. So now you've made the leap to testing? What sort of testing do you have in mind?

Yes, that's what modeling does... the math, and nothing more. What would you expect a model (which is what you've been obsessing over of late) to show besides the freq response mag with 2KW input? Compression?

What will happen at 11Hz? No one knows at this point.

Every driver will compress when driven long enough with 1KW using a sine wave which is a useless bit of data.

The only question, IMO, would be the mouth and its ability to move the air sufficiently at 11Hz as level is increased, but that's only an opinion. Otherwise...

If Tom says the DTS-10 will handle 2KW, one would normally ascribe the proper parameters to the word 'handle' and assume that the math will hold true at 11Hz, and, we have the actual (and accurate) 1W/1M magnitude response... not a models prediction.

That's based on the available info. I'm not sure what else you're looking for via a software model. Being skeptical is a good thing, but it shouldn't require several contentious posts to get to spitting that out.

I'm sure Josh will progressive sweep and single tone 11Hz sine wave the DTS-10, looking at compression and THD. We'll just have to wait for that info, but I'll add that it should be obvious that a horn will 'out gun' any other alignment, driver-for-driver, in its pass band. This is not new info.

Bosso
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Old 11-17-2009, 08:09 AM
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Hi Craigsub & others,

(1) AFAIK, Tom said it would not be Xmax limited 16Hz and up.
(a) that means adding 33dB / 2kW to 11, 12, 13, 14 & 15Hz would not happen, unless you don't mind the distortion aka free SPL in the pro world

(2) What was posted is voltage sensitivity graph, not 1W/1m graph. Somebody correct me if i am wrong. Correspondingly an impedance graph is also posted.

(3) I was the guy who posted some max SPL figures at certain freq (I think it was 16Hz, 25Hz, 50Hz etc) with 2kW, with the impedance accounted for. It was not just merely +33dB to the sensitivity graph.
It is also purely academic, "FYI", as the Z is swinging really wildly and the only way to do it is to measure it yourself in reality. For those really anal, just minus 3-4dB to the figures to account for compression....no biggie there's enough meat for everyone.

(4) Did anybody post 120 or 123dB max @ 11Hz? AFAIK I'm not really sure about this, did not see that nor did I post that. (maybe I missed it, lotsa posts!). Again, Tom did post that it would be Xmax limited by the time it hits 16Hz, that should be quite clear.

(5) Horns are/may not be super low distortion devices at the limit, compared to uber driver resonant devices. Which devices suit the user & their apps, really depend on themselves and their goals. There are good distortion measurements on PSW/audioroundtable forums. I saw a 1W and 100W tests in the new york shootout in PSW for quite some models, a fair bit of data there.


Seriously I am not really a techy guy so there might be things that I have not accounted for, Ivan would be the man to ans....but I guess he has more serious posts to do like in PSW. Tom has a lot on his plate right now probably, if he posts we will get more headache. Scott is currently fending off some scammer from my country. LOL!
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Old 11-17-2009, 09:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

Tom mentioned that max excursion occurs at 16Hz. There and below the corner is where harmonic distortion will be the problem, which those who've actually followed this thread already know I've mentioned.

You asked about models and I answered the question. So now you've made the leap to testing? What sort of testing do you have in mind?

Yes, that's what modeling does... the math, and nothing more. What would you expect a model (which is what you've been obsessing over of late) to show besides the freq response mag with 2KW input? Compression?

What will happen at 11Hz? No one knows at this point.

Every driver will compress when driven long enough with 1KW using a sine wave which is a useless bit of data.

The only question, IMO, would be the mouth and its ability to move the air sufficiently at 11Hz as level is increased, but that's only an opinion. Otherwise...

If Tom says the DTS-10 will handle 2KW, one would normally ascribe the proper parameters to the word 'handle' and assume that the math will hold true at 11Hz, and, we have the actual (and accurate) 1W/1M magnitude response... not a models prediction.

That's based on the available info. I'm not sure what else you're looking for via a software model. Being skeptical is a good thing, but it shouldn't require several contentious posts to get to spitting that out.

I'm sure Josh will progressive sweep and single tone 11Hz sine wave the DTS-10, looking at compression and THD. We'll just have to wait for that info, but I'll add that it should be obvious that a horn will 'out gun' any other alignment, driver-for-driver, in its pass band. This is not new info.

Bosso

Bosso, I am not obsessing over anything. The simple fact is people have been making comments that are not going to be backed up by the pure science of the situation.

Now, in terms of a horn driver "out gunning" any other alignement, driver for driver, in its pass band ... That is quite elementary. I never suggested otherwise.

I was not aware that Asking for information was being contentious. I apologize for trying to be involved in a friendly conversation.
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Old 11-17-2009, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Ok ... so we add 20 dB and end up with what looks to be about 102 dB at 20 Hz and 135 dB at around 100 Hz.

I also don't recall Tom making the 123 dB claim at 11 Hz. He posted a graph showing 90 dB @ one watt.

Modeling could show whether the DTS is (in theory) capable of doing so (delivering 123 dB at 11 Hz).

I don't have modeling software for the TH design. If one takes the Lab-12's and looks at max output in a large, sealed enclosure, one will see about 93 dB for two of them at X-max (actually, this is a little past X-max).



If it does, this would be quite the feat.

Im following along (trying too) and I do not remember any 123dB @ 11 Hz measurements or claims at this time. You are correct 90dB @ 1W has been posted.

I like your question

"Does the TH add 30 in output at 11 Hz ? "

Im hoping there is some sort of answer for it but first we need to confirm 123dB is remotely possible @ 11Hz.

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Old 11-17-2009, 09:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Im following along (trying too) and I do not remember any 123dB @ 11 Hz measurements or claims at this time. You are correct 90dB @ 1W has been posted.

I like your question

"Does the TH add 30 in output at 11 Hz ? "

Im hoping there is some sort of answer for it but first we need to confirm 123dB is remotely possible @ 11Hz.

When the statement (paraphrasing here, not quoting) of "It does 90 dB @ 11 Hz at 1 watt, so do the math for 2000 watts" is made, it is being suggested, rather strongly, that all one need to do is translate this into dBW. 2000 watts is 33 dBW.

Thus, based "on the math", a statement was made that the DTS-10 can deliver 123 dB @ 11 Hz.

If the DTS can deliver 110 dB (with no audible distortion) at 11 Hz, this would be a remarkable subwoofer.

It would take Two LMS-5400's driven to 42 mm one way excursions to deliver 110 dB at 11 Hz.
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Old 11-17-2009, 09:52 AM
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Why am I not surprised that the discussion has turned into a paper SPL contest as usual around these parts? Hey I'm as guilty as the next most of the time, but this is just ridiculous.

A couple of points...

In case you missed the memo models don't tell you everything. They are mostly small signal analysis based, upon small signal parameters. Don't be surprised when dumping huge power into this cabinet, or ANY other cabinet if it does not match the pretty simulation. If you are lucky they'll be somewhat similar.

For the last time. The drivers ARE NOT LAB12's!. They may look similar, but there are major differences. You are not modeling with the right drivers.

Also you may think that you have some sort of approximate model of the DTS-10 in HR, but it won't be exact and again it'll be using the wrong drivers. (Not picking on you Dennis BTW).

If you aren't even modeling the TH, which you can't without Akabak, or HR and you aren't using the right driver parameters, then I don't know what you are doing. There are way too many variables to consider to look at a voltage FR graph and simply add a fixed amount of dbw to it.

Also determining max output for a sealed enclosure is a simple affair, ported a bit harder, but not much so. A TH has a much more complex interaction with the drivers throughout the bandwidth (just look at the impedance), so it is much harder to judge.

It seems like a lot of you missed that the xmax is 15mm on these and also my post where I said that the drivers don't start making obvious suspension and vent distress noises until around 25mm one way or 2" p2p and they likely still have a ways to go before bottoming. There is plenty left after 15mm. How noticeable do you think those vent and suspension noises will be buried way inside the cabinet, in room while putting out high levels of bass?

Will the DTS-10 compete with, or even best 4 long throw 18" drivers on 4X the power with more total enclosure volume, or is it comparable to a standard 18" drive EBS? I suspect that the reality is somewhere in between. Surprise.

123db at 11hz at 1m in halfspace? Very highly doubtful. Most people's big 12-14hz ported 18's would be lucky to get up 110-112db under such a scenario in the real world. Please don't show me some graph from Winisd either to prove that they will. Your vent is going to be huffing and puffing and you driver will be well into thermal compression as well, so you'll never see those last couple of DB. If the DTS-10 can muster up a solid 110db under that scenario it'd be plenty impressive once in room and not using anywhere near even 500w.


I do know this. The TH50 has stupid output headroom in it's intended range. In no way would a ported enclosure using the same driver, which is a big and nasty driver, even come close. No way. I've never heard a single 15" driver do anything remotely close to that. If you've never heard one of the big Danley products, or even a TH, or bass horn for that matter you just don't know.
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Old 11-17-2009, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

When the statement (paraphrasing here, not quoting) of "It does 90 dB @ 11 Hz at 1 watt, so do the math for 2000 watts" is made, it is being suggested, rather strongly, that all one need to do is translate this into dBW. 2000 watts is 33 dBW.

Thus, based "on the math", a statement was made that the DTS-10 can deliver 123 dB @ 11 Hz.

If the DTS can deliver 110 dB (with no audible distortion) at 11 Hz, this would be a remarkable subwoofer.

It would take Two LMS-5400's driven to 42 mm one way excursions to deliver 110 dB at 11 Hz.

Yeah, there are definitely some details that need clarification.

I actually didnt believe 1000W meant 1000Watts @ 11 Hz myself because a SSF would be used. I know some discussion around requiring a high pass filter at some point.

Still what about 1000W @ 20Hz?....that is very meaningful.

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Old 11-17-2009, 09:56 AM
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Hey, you guys like graphs, right?

Here is a ruff Super Spud model using two Lab12s in parallel. I did mess with the T/S numbers and got a closer match, but I have know idea how close to the DSL Lab12 it is so I left it out.

The corner isn't as low, but ole TD said he thought it was going to be ~15Hz until he measured it, so keep that in mind.

Impedance


Driver displacement at 2.83v


Driver displacement at 24.10v


SPL at 2.83v -half space


SPL at 24.10v -half space
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:08 AM
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Driver displacement at 32v


SPL at 32v -half space
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:34 AM
 
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Soho - Thanks. Those graphs are quite similar to what our engineer estimated for output numbers as well.

The inherent efficiency of the DTS along with its ability to use boundary gain to maximum benefit will make this quite the performer in one's system.

And the first smarta$$ that suggests this needs an MBM is gonna get it ...
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

And the first smarta$$ that suggests this needs an MBM is gonna get it ...

Ha haa haaaa! That's classic

David Budo
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:39 AM
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Before I'm asked, I'm not giving out any other parameters about the sim. There is enough info in this thread for you to do it for yourselves.

Maybe I should have added some vertical compression too.
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Old 11-17-2009, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

BTW, the Danley plate amp that fits is 500 watts, but from what I gather, at least 1000 is preffered. Effortless. Dynamic. Blah blah.



How did you arrive that the Danley amp available is 500 watts? That is simply not the case. Into the impedance load of the DTS10 it is 1000watts.

But you could use a larger amp (up to 2Kw if you wanted) to handle the peaks a bit better.

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Old 11-17-2009, 11:45 AM
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My dts-10's have arrived. Now I need to go get them. The drivers come next week. I am going on Vacation(disney world again) for thanksgiving so I will get to finishing next week. I will build the cabinets by the weekend. If you guys ever get a chance to visit Disney world in Florida go to Philharmagic. It's a 4D theater that sounds awesome. The bass is great and shakes you. I wonder what they use. Maybe Danley can get some products in there.

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amps-5 Adcom 555 in 850 watt monoblock mode
sub amp-Sanway FP14K
LCR-Dual stacked BFM DR-250's
Surrounds- Dual stacked BFM W10's
subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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Old 11-17-2009, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Why am I not surprised that the discussion has turned into a paper SPL contest as usual around these parts? Hey I'm as guilty as the next most of the time, but this is just ridiculous.

A couple of points...

In case you missed the memo models don't tell you everything. They are mostly small signal analysis based, upon small signal parameters. Don't be surprised when dumping huge power into this cabinet, or ANY other cabinet if it does not match the pretty simulation. If you are lucky they'll be somewhat similar.

For the last time. The drivers ARE NOT LAB12's!. They may look similar, but there are major differences. You are not modeling with the right drivers.

Also you may think that you have some sort of approximate model of the DTS-10 in HR, but it won't be exact and again it'll be using the wrong drivers. (Not picking on you Dennis BTW).

If you aren't even modeling the TH, which you can't without Akabak, or HR and you aren't using the right driver parameters, then I don't know what you are doing. There are way too many variables to consider to look at a voltage FR graph and simply add a fixed amount of dbw to it.

Also determining max output for a sealed enclosure is a simple affair, ported a bit harder, but not much so. A TH has a much more complex interaction with the drivers throughout the bandwidth (just look at the impedance), so it is much harder to judge.

It seems like a lot of you missed that the xmax is 15mm on these and also my post where I said that the drivers don't start making obvious suspension and vent distress noises until around 25mm one way or 2" p2p and they likely still have a ways to go before bottoming. There is plenty left after 15mm. How noticeable do you think those vent and suspension noises will be buried way inside the cabinet, in room while putting out high levels of bass?

Will the DTS-10 compete with, or even best 4 long throw 18" drivers on 4X the power with more total enclosure volume, or is it comparable to a standard 18" drive EBS? I suspect that the reality is somewhere in between. Surprise.

123db at 11hz at 1m in halfspace? Very highly doubtful. Most people's big 12-14hz ported 18's would be lucky to get up 110-112db under such a scenario in the real world. Please don't show me some graph from Winisd either to prove that they will. Your vent is going to be huffing and puffing and you driver will be well into thermal compression as well, so you'll never see those last couple of DB. If the DTS-10 can muster up a solid 110db under that scenario it'd be plenty impressive once in room and not using anywhere near even 500w.


I do know this. The TH50 has stupid output headroom in it's intended range. In no way would a ported enclosure using the same driver, which is a big and nasty driver, even come close. No way. I've never heard a single 15" driver do anything remotely close to that. If you've never heard one of the big Danley products, or even a TH, or bass horn for that matter you just don't know.

Agree on all counts. I was messing around with rew last night trying to get it to work. When running sound card calibration the piece of junk card in my old computer that sort of works has a roll off of -3 db at 20 hz. It probably won't do justice to measure with this card but I am going to try to hook up and measure with a different computer soon to try and help with the speculation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

My dts-10's have arrived. Now I need to go get them. The drivers come next week. I am going on Vacation(disney world again) for thanksgiving so I will get to finishing next week. I will build the cabinets by the weekend. If you guys ever get a chance to visit Disney world in Florida go to Philharmagic. It's a 4D theater that sounds awesome. The bass is great and shakes you. I wonder what they use. Maybe Danley can get some products in there.

Hope you have a huge truck or a u-haul handy for those huge boxes!! Take an extra person or two along with you to help out.


My family is hoping to hit up Disney this coming year. If we do go I know philharmagic will be at the top of my list of things to do. Looking forward to that.
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Old 11-17-2009, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

When the statement (paraphrasing here, not quoting) of "It does 90 dB @ 11 Hz at 1 watt, so do the math for 2000 watts" is made, it is being suggested, rather strongly, that all one need to do is translate this into dBW. 2000 watts is 33 dBW.

Thus, based "on the math", a statement was made that the DTS-10 can deliver 123 dB @ 11 Hz.

If the DTS can deliver 110 dB (with no audible distortion) at 11 Hz, this would be a remarkable subwoofer.

It would take Two LMS-5400's driven to 42 mm one way excursions to deliver 110 dB at 11 Hz.

I haven't claimed anything about actual performance, so put that to rest, if you don't mind.

Once again:

Quote:


You asked about models and I answered the question. So now you've made the leap to testing? What sort of testing do you have in mind?

Quote:


What will happen at 11Hz? No one knows at this point.

Also, if you don't mind me asking, on what do you base your LMS output at 11Hz number?

Bosso
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Old 11-17-2009, 12:48 PM
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I am hoping to have 2 guys and myself with a full size pickup or rent a u-haul if need be. That should be plenty.

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subs-12 SI 18's ported 6hz.
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Old 11-17-2009, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Why am I not surprised that the discussion has turned into a paper SPL contest as usual around these parts? Hey I'm as guilty as the next most of the time, but this is just ridiculous.

A couple of points...

In case you missed the memo models don't tell you everything. They are mostly small signal analysis based, upon small signal parameters. Don't be surprised when dumping huge power into this cabinet, or ANY other cabinet if it does not match the pretty simulation. If you are lucky they'll be somewhat similar.

For the last time. The drivers ARE NOT LAB12's!. They may look similar, but there are major differences. You are not modeling with the right drivers.

Also you may think that you have some sort of approximate model of the DTS-10 in HR, but it won't be exact and again it'll be using the wrong drivers. (Not picking on you Dennis BTW).

If you aren't even modeling the TH, which you can't without Akabak, or HR and you aren't using the right driver parameters, then I don't know what you are doing. There are way too many variables to consider to look at a voltage FR graph and simply add a fixed amount of dbw to it.

Also determining max output for a sealed enclosure is a simple affair, ported a bit harder, but not much so. A TH has a much more complex interaction with the drivers throughout the bandwidth (just look at the impedance), so it is much harder to judge.

It seems like a lot of you missed that the xmax is 15mm on these and also my post where I said that the drivers don't start making obvious suspension and vent distress noises until around 25mm one way or 2" p2p and they likely still have a ways to go before bottoming. There is plenty left after 15mm. How noticeable do you think those vent and suspension noises will be buried way inside the cabinet, in room while putting out high levels of bass?

Will the DTS-10 compete with, or even best 4 long throw 18" drivers on 4X the power with more total enclosure volume, or is it comparable to a standard 18" drive EBS? I suspect that the reality is somewhere in between. Surprise.

123db at 11hz at 1m in halfspace? Very highly doubtful. Most people's big 12-14hz ported 18's would be lucky to get up 110-112db under such a scenario in the real world. Please don't show me some graph from Winisd either to prove that they will. Your vent is going to be huffing and puffing and you driver will be well into thermal compression as well, so you'll never see those last couple of DB. If the DTS-10 can muster up a solid 110db under that scenario it'd be plenty impressive once in room and not using anywhere near even 500w.


I do know this. The TH50 has stupid output headroom in it's intended range. In no way would a ported enclosure using the same driver, which is a big and nasty driver, even come close. No way. I've never heard a single 15" driver do anything remotely close to that. If you've never heard one of the big Danley products, or even a TH, or bass horn for that matter you just don't know.

IIRC, your prog sweeps of the big ported XXX seemed to track the model fairly closely, compression notwithstanding.

Also, as I've mentioned before, wouldn't the self noise that's in band be amplified by the horn?

Bosso
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Old 11-17-2009, 01:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I haven't claimed anything about actual performance, so put that to rest, if you don't mind.

Once again:

Also, if you don't mind me asking, on what do you base your LMS output at 11Hz number?

Bosso

Dave, I didn't say you had claimed anything about performance. I merely said that there were those in this thread who had pronounced specific performance by "doing the math".

The LMS-5400 number comes from both modeling and from The Shack's test in which a single unit delivered about 97-98 dB @ 2 meters groundplane. Add 12 dB and see what you get.
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Old 11-17-2009, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

IIRC, your prog sweeps of the big ported XXX seemed to track the model fairly closely, compression notwithstanding.

Also, as I've mentioned before, wouldn't the self noise that's in band be amplified by the horn?

Bosso

True, but I'm not satisfied with those measurements anymore. I feel like there may have been some set-up errors on my part that affected things. I'll likely do them again later on. Hopefully outdoors.

The self noise from the drivers was audible, but not loud or offensive when driven well past their rated xmax free-air. No hard clanking or whistling or anything like that, just some suspension flutter. I'm not sure whether the TH will amplifiy it or not, but I'm sure that that much excursion from the drivers while in the TH is going to result in some loud output levels in room.
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Old 11-17-2009, 01:42 PM
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Actual listening to the DTS10 will take place tonight. Hallelujah everybody! Again sorry I'm slow, but things are busy and I had to spend last night figuring out optimum placement, getting the DTS-10 into position and all of that. I need to do a bit more tweaking and then it's off to the races.
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Old 11-17-2009, 01:58 PM
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Hi all

Well I see that two kits are assembled now and are being evaluated with another pair delivered.
I look forward to the impressions.

I also see a significant amount of speculation happening as well as postulating about how the Tapped horn works.

So far as the White paper that was written near the beginning of the development and there have been several new wrinkles discovered since then which are part of the design now. For example, in a conventional horn the driver is facing the horn on one side and a sealed enclosure on the other. The horn, as it approaches it's low cutoff, appears to be a mass who's value increases with decreasing F. By choosing the back volume properly, the two reactance's cancel over a range of frequencies which extends the low corner (sometimes called Reactance annulling). The Tapped horn has no sealed back volume but the same reactance can be conjugated by choosing the drivers compliance and flare t for best results.
Immediately, one sees that the Tapped horn driver has a higher Fs relative to it's low cutoff than the more familiar alignments.


Keep in mind, that while there is a continuum of possible driver parameters, what one can build in real life is more limited. In the case of the DTS-10, consider the drivers Fs is an octave ABOVE the systems low corner.
How would one go about making a vented box with a low knee around 12 Hz?
Part of the strength of the approach is that for a given driver, one can get a significantly lower corner than when used conventionally conversely, drivers which are ideal for say 30Hz low corner, tend to be more like pro drivers, higher Fs, stronger motor.

Several people are speculating about what the DTS-10 can do as if it were customary to supply detailed measurements in home theater market or like we were making any claims about it.
Keep in mind the idea of a kit was sort of a wild idea that seemed like fun, it simply got more interest than we were expecting.

I saw the reference to the measurements Illka had compiled and the chart showing maximum usable output and that appears to me to be about as close as anyone has come to making universal comparisons.
If I recall, that was defined by 10% THD .
I have asked the shop to drag the prototype out to the parking lot and increase the level to 10% THD at the frequencies Illka measured.
At that point it will be possible to see where it stacks up so far at least in half space, as to level and THD.
Are there other comparable measurements of home subwoofers available?

Why a kit?
I grew up taking things apart and then later putting things together. As my mother still asks me occasionally 40+ year later did you put the back back on.
I did chores for my Grampa and earned enough for my first Heathkit and was hooked on building things for the next 50 years or so.
I was lucky in that loudspeakers and electronics were my favorite things since I was a kid, would turn out to be my job and then have my name being on the nameplate, weird!.
Bottom line, I like DIY stuff, it's how I got wherever it is I am now.


After Brandon's gtg where Ivan brought a TH-50, it seemed like maybe it would make sense to do a kit. Most of our efforts at work are in larger spaces than the home and scaling things down for home use has been something I wanted to do eventually.

Several times in the past I have tried to do DIY projects, the Lab sub& driver was the most recent one used in pro sound. I had thought how cool would it be to build something at the front edge of technology instead of an ancient design.
The problem is when a design is complicated; there are chances to change things enough so that it doesn't quite work. With a kit where all the wood working id done, and daddo joints being stronger as well as self locating, that seemed like the way to go.
Anyway Mike agreed to trying a kit, it kind of took off more than expected and here we are.

Intellectual property and copy cats;

Having worked with Horns most of my life, it seemed to me, given what several of them did, that the Tapped horn was something new and I have applied for a patent on it.
The idea came from thinking about the reflected signal one sees in the full range synergy horns we make. When you mount a driver on the wall of a horn, at the frequency where the distance to the throat is about a quarter wavelength, that signal reflects back being delayed 180 degrees, which cancels out the main signal, making a deep notch.

I thought what if I replaced the reflected signal with another source of the opposite phase (which I had in the rear radiation) and positioned it at the same 90 degree spacing..
If you look at the actual bass horn measurements in this thread, you will see what a conventional horns response looks like.
After making a computer model and a good deal of fiddling, I saw hints that it would work. Eventually I had arrived at a routine to design from and a set of rules to follow.
The idea here is that in the region where the first deepest notch is, in a Tapped horn, one has both faces of the driver being fully additive within the horn.
With that greater area at 2X the low cutoff, one can make the driver stronger and heavier than normal for properly driving a quarter wave stub and still filling in the dip.

Understand, our company is not some stockholder owned conglomo corp who has made it through the power of marketing, we are growing but still small in our industry, our products are often selected by side by side comparisons with some our industries larger naked emperors and all that requires hard work from a lot of people...

If the patent office grants the patent, then I will pursue the companies, which are infringing on the design and for this reason, I would ask all the kit assemblers to keep the specifics to themselves. Hopefully the opportunity to try something new makes that request trivial. Hopefully the issue of copy cats doesn't leave a bad taste in the office at work, I would like to see about doing some other DIY speaker kits if this works out.


So far as what does the DTS-10 do,
Subjectively, there are two kits out in the field working at the moment and the feedback is scant while they are being dialed in.
I have asked that the shop that when they have time to perform a measurement like Illka did, at least that will give some idea what one could expect.
Looking at the computer model, it would be a toss up if it's excursion or power limited at 12Hz, at 16 and 20, I would guess excursion limited, above 25Hz, power limited.
At 12Hz, it appears that it takes 10mm of cone excursion to reach 120dB @ 1 mtr with a Pe of 400w per driver and at the outlet about 8.6cm air motion at the horn mouth
Where it comes out in the real world remains to be measured.

Soho54 has modeled a tapped horn.
As one can see, the Lab 12 is not quite enough motor for that configuration.
With a stronger motor, the excursion and impedance minimum is more strongly driven, bringing up the response and low corner.

The thing one wants to maximize / optimize is the acoustic load on the driver, that acoustic load is sound radiated away. Here the throat area, taper, end area, tap location and front volumes and driver properties all enter into the final result.
A word about computer models in general is that they often over state the Q of resonances and in some case with a Tapped horn, can predict things which aren't present in a physical example. As a result, features are shown more sharply in a model than a careful measurement usually shows. For example, the swings of impedance, excursion and hf response will have less swing than the prediction does. Examine the measured impedance vs the predicted for example..

Also, at low frequencies how one parses the extra mass that each bend represents can cause the measured result to be different as in this case, I did not account for enough bend mass and the result was acoustically a little longer than my model and reality has more viscous loss than I estimated.
The usefulness of models is only to the degree that what is predicted is like what you measured when built. Making an accurate model is not easy and an accurate measurement always trumps a computer model..

DTS-10 placement;
In part it is not easy to model because to a much larger degree than a direct radiator, a horn can feel it's surroundings acoustically. A horn among other things is a high pass filter, horn loading begins above some frequency governed in part by how fast the path's area is increasing. For example, for a 30Hz exponential horn, the path area doubles about every two feet. For a 60Hz horn, the area doubles every foot and so on.
At the mouth of a DTS-10 or any horn, the horn action actually continues for a short distance outside the cabinet by virtue of the enclosure and floor limit the rate of the acoustic path's expansion. If one places the mouth in a corner, one has added a significantly larger external horn path. In fact, if you place multiple units together, you have also reduced the rate of expansion making the outside part of the horn larger.
I suppose the ultimate use of the DTS-10 might be one on the floor and one on each wall, all with the outlets in the corner. In a perfect world, to the horn, he wall becomes a seamless transition at the proper expansion rate. In practice, you get less than tha because there is a discontinuity and the source is too small BUT any gain you get is free and reduces the drive level needed to reach any given SPL.
In reality, try it where ever you think it might fit.
My assumption here was like the Spud platform, that one would normally use a pair of them too but the dimensions are such that one could also stack two high in a 8 foot room if one wanted to make a full height screen wall.
Each time you confine the radiation sphere with a wall / floor or wall / floor / corner you have confined the energy to a fractional space but also added to the external horn.
What do they say, your mileage may vary depending on your room.

MK, Ah Disney, have a lot of fond memories from there with my kids.
I have not seen the theater you mentioned though, next time.
Have fun with the construction too!
Are you going to have them in the front?
Best,
Tom Danley
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