Why are there no DIY Wave Guides out there? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I've built serveral DIY subs in my time and I've finally satisfyed my search for bass with my current IB. I've always wanted to dip into loudspeakers but crossover design hasn't been something i've tryed yet.

In searching for my ultimate speakers to fit in my theater room I've come across people using pro speakers, DJ, Cinema etc. Horns seem to rule the pro market.

A few companies have risen to the top for HT like JTR, and GedLee. The GedLee designs look very promising for HT being similar to horns but using waveguides.

The speakers are pricey...
http://www.gedlee.com/Loudspeakers.htm
but upon further investigation you can actually buy the drivers for the 12" abbey($1750) for $370 and the 10" Nathan ($1200) for $250. Waveguides are cheap at less that $15. Add MDF and crossovers and you should be able to built these for $400 to $500 easily.

With comments like "these are best speakers I've heard in 30years" I'm just curious why the DIY crowd isn't jumping on the designs.
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post #2 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 07:17 AM
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Found some B&C kits in France with, for me, intresting prices, because i'm from Sweden.
I have never listened to Dr. Geddes speaker. But reading reviews, and of course a lot of imagination, they look to me very interesting.

http://www.toutlehautparleur.com/kit...c-153_453.html
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post #3 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post

but upon further investigation you can actually buy the drivers for the 12" abbey($1750) for $370 and the 10" Nathan ($1200) for $250. Waveguides are cheap at less that $15. Add MDF and crossovers and you should be able to built these for $400 to $500 easily.

You forgot the price of the compression driver. IIRC it's a B&C DE250 which are [edit] $250 for a pair.
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post #4 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 07:39 AM
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"With comments like "these are best speakers I've heard in 30years" I'm just curious why the DIY crowd isn't jumping on the designs."

We have been since about April

I have a long DIY waveguide discussion thread and Im currently building my speakers (same as Buddha and similar to Augerpro)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...175&highlight=

Several build threads...Augerpro will have his fully documented at some point so others can just follow his great instructions.



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1167816

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...192&highlight=

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...647&highlight=

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...051&highlight=


Also AudioKarma has the original Econo-waveguild build discussion (its a HUGE thread).

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post #5 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

You forgot the price of the compression driver. IIRC it's a B&C DE250 which are $500 for the pair.

I think they are around $130 on prosoundaudio.com ( I can not remember the link right now).

I also believe Geddes offers a great discount on the DE250 if someone is interested in just buying it.

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post #6 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

You forgot the price of the compression driver. IIRC it's a B&C DE250 which are $500 for the pair.

nope the compression driver is at Parts Express for $110.
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post #7 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I think they are around $130 on prosoundaudio.com ( I can not remember the link right now).

I also believe Geddes offers a great discount on the DE250 if someone is interested in just buying it.

Yes, you're right - brain fade on my end. $250 for the pair.
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post #8 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 08:04 AM
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Personally I'd love to see an affordable wave guide that mates to a large format compression driver to cover the 300hz-8hz range.

It's not going to be small though.
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post #9 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

Yes, you're right - brain fade on my end. $250 for the pair.

no biggie!
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post #10 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post

nope the compression driver is at Parts Express for $110.

That is a good price, I believe Geddes still gets them and maybe sells them cheaper.

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post #11 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

"With comments like "these are best speakers I've heard in 30years" I'm just curious why the DIY crowd isn't jumping on the designs."

We have been since about April

I have a long DIY waveguide discussion thread and Im currently building my speakers (same as Buddha and similar to Augerpro)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...175&highlight=

Several build threads...Augerpro will have his fully documented at some point so others can just follow his great instructions.



http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1167816

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...192&highlight=

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...647&highlight=

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...051&highlight=


Also AudioKarma has the original Econo-waveguild build discussion (its a HUGE thread).


Hey Penn,

I saw a few of those threads, I just didn't see any real finished procucts that compared to the JTR or GedLee's in performance, or at least the builders never had anything finished and proven to hold up to the known brands.

It would seem simple to just use the same drivers and cabinet deminsions and design a crossover to give a flat response. I guess i'm looking for something similar to what Parts Express has as far as diy goes... "here's the parts list and here's how to build it"!
Unfortunately they don't have anything worked up using Coaxials like the triple 8s or waveguides like the GedLee's.

Like everyone else, I want something to rival the triple 8s/12s and GedLee's without the big price tag.

I just have too much going on in my life to dive into crossover design to really go at it myself, if I started I'd get way too involved and my wife would have me sleeping on the couch.
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post #12 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

Personally I'd love to see an affordable wave guide that mates to a large format compression driver to cover the 300hz-8hz range.

It's not going to be small though.

I only want something perfect down to 800Hz actually. I think 400Hz still needs 12" woofer output

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post #13 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post

Hey Penn,

I saw a few of those threads, I just didn't see any real finished procucts that compared to the JTR or GedLee's in performance, or at least the builders never had anything finished and proven to hold up to the known brands.

It would seem simple to just use the same drivers and cabinet deminsions and design a crossover to give a flat response. I guess i'm looking for something similar to what Parts Express has as far as diy goes... "here's the parts list and here's how to build it"!
Unfortunately they don't have anything worked up using Coaxials like the triple 8s or waveguides like the GedLee's.

Like everyone else, I want something to rival the triple 8s/12s and GedLee's without the big price tag.

I just have too much going on in my life to dive into crossover design to really go at it myself, if I started I'd get way too involved and my wife would have me sleeping on the couch.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...167816&page=12

Augerpro's speakers are finished (first run), he is going to be perfecting the crossover so we just have to follow along and there is no doubt in my mind his designs will stand up to the JTRs and the Geddes Abbey designs. Both Jeff and Earl are damn good speaker builders too....add Mark Seaton to that list so its hard to match them but close is cool when our costs are a fraction of what their speakers cost. If someone still believes we are not close then I guess Geddes kits would solve that problem and they are under $2K for a pair

I will be following Buddha's build because he has the same drivers as I do. My boxes are built too, Im just trying to do a nice high gloss black finish (trying to do it for 4 months now ).


As for Coax designs (ala Seaton) Mayhem created several polls over the summer on this forum. The theory was to findout what DIYers wanted in a Signature AVS DIY speaker build. The Coax was bantered around a lot so maybe that build will use the Coax found in Mark's designs.

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post #14 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 08:53 AM
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I have had the Nathan 10s complete for a bit over a year now (I received the second or third kit shipped out, I believe) and I've been following the No Quarter evolution with great interest. As soon as I saw those QSC waveguides, back when augerpro fist posted pics prior to testing, I ordered a few.

The Nathan 10s sound great. It'll be interesting to see how the NQ, or some slight variation thereof, does in the same environment.
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post #15 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amik View Post

I have had the Nathan 10s complete for a bit over a year now (I received the second or third kit shipped out, I believe) and I've been following the No Quarter evolution with great interest. As soon as I saw those QSC waveguides, back when augerpro fist posted pics prior to testing, I ordered a few.

The Nathan 10s sound great. It'll be interesting to see how the NQ, or some slight variation thereof, does in the same environment.

I looked forward to your thread with comparisons. Even the Nathans are a great choice for a average size HT room. They are the lowest cost choices from Geddes too.



QSC Waveguides.... Chucky was the first to find out about the QSC waveguides (on here) and he PMed me on them. I then posted them everywhere for people to start ordering. QSC has a very, very cool online part ordering website!!

After a small amount of time QSC had them on back order and then QSC rep posted in Chucky's thread commenting that QSC parts are really for replacement parts...we should keep our orders to a minimum

I have not checked lately, I do want to buy 3 more sets soon.

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post #16 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I only want something perfect down to 800Hz actually. I think 400Hz still needs 12" woofer output

I like a 300hz crossover as that covers the bulk of the vocal range. The down side is a large horn and more expensive CD with a 3-4" diaphragm. Then you also need another CD and horn to cover 8Khz+. So you end up with a three way, rather than than a two way, so I guess this is a little OT.
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post #17 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

I like a 300hz crossover as that covers the bulk of the vocal range. The down side is a large horn and more expensive CD with a 3-4" diaphragm. Then you also need another CD and horn to cover 8Khz+. So you end up with a three way, rather than than a two way, so I guess this is a little OT.

Do you follow LeCache (sp?) horn discussions over on DIYAudio?

Those very large horns seem to be popular over in Europe but we never see any in North American.

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post #18 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Even the Nathans are a great choice for a average size HT room.

I should have my wife post her thoughts. Suffice it to say it would be something like "too [profanity] loud!". My rooms is of modest size, 15x17x10.5, and these loudspeakers are absolutely effortless. I am absolutely sold on the concept of high sensitivity constant directivity loudspeakers given my experience with these.

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

QSC Waveguides.... Chucky was the first to find out about the QSC waveguides (on here) and he PMed me on them. I then posted them everywhere for people to start ordering. QSC has a very, very cool online part ordering website!!

After a small amount of time QSC had them on back order and then QSC rep posted in Chucky's thread commenting that QSC parts are really for replacement parts...we should keep our orders to a minimum

I have not checked lately, I do want to buy 3 more sets soon.

Well thank you both for sharing the info. Hard to believe how nice these are for the asking price. I'll try not to overwhelm QSC with too many orders.
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post #19 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amik View Post

I should have my wife post her thoughts. Suffice it to say it would be something like "too [profanity] loud!". My rooms is of modest size, 15x17x10.5, and these loudspeakers are absolutely effortless. I am absolutely sold on the concept of high sensitivity constant directivity loudspeakers given my experience with these.

Lmao, that sounds like my wife

I think its all about the whole system from the speaker design/response to the amount of amplication, there simply isnt any "Stress" in the system...no "Stress" seems to make everything so damn clear.


Quote:


Well thank you both for sharing the info. Hard to believe how nice these are for the asking price. I'll try not to overwhelm QSC with too many orders.

I think the small celestion CD that comes with the waveguides is a steal too. Augerpro's measurements show its a stout little performer.

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post #20 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...167816&page=12

Augerpro's speakers are finished (first run), he is going to be perfecting the crossover so we just have to follow along and there is no doubt in my mind his designs will stand up to the JTRs and the Geddes Abbey designs. Both Jeff and Earl are damn good speaker builders too....add Mark Seaton to that list so its hard to match them but close is cool when our costs are a fraction of what their speakers cost. If someone still believes we are not close then I guess Geddes kits would solve that problem and they are under $2K for a pair


On average, what is the cost per speaker with these DIY versions that you guys are building?
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post #21 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommygee View Post

On average, what is the cost per speaker with these DIY versions that you guys are building?

Here was my breakdown for two sets of speaker pairs (High end, low end)
minus crossover $$

TD12Ms 470.00
BMS 4550s 290.00
QSC 152i (PL-000446-GP) 24.00

Total 884.00/pair (abbey comparison $2600/pair)


Failtal Pro 12pr300 200.00
Celestion 1425 130.00
QSC 122i (10" round) 20.00

Total 350.00/pair (nathan comparison $1800/pair)

Augerpro, I believe posted his costs somewhere in his thread. Which is similar to the QSC HPR152i build.



The QSC waveguides are about 1/20th the cost of Geddes waveguides and 1/5 the cost of other quality waveguides found online.

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post #22 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 09:24 AM
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Also there are Pi speaker kits

http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/pr...8/reviews_id/2

I was considering buying his crossover for the pi Three speakers and buying the same drivers for my project (well I have the TD series drivers). Better looking speakers with Wayne's great designs.

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post #23 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Augerpro, I believe posted his costs somewhere in his thread. Which is similar to the QSC HPR152i build.

Augerpro's shooting for $600/pair for everything (wood, drivers, waveguides, and XO components).
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post #24 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post



Failtal Pro 12pr300 200.00
Celestion 1425 130.00
QSC 122i (10" round) 20.00

Total 350.00/pair (nathan comparison $1800/pair)


The QSC waveguides are about 1/20th the cost of Geddes waveguides and 1/5 the cost of other quality waveguides found online.

Back when I built my Nathans they were still at $1200 per pair but it was well known that price wouldn't last long.

Just ordered some more of the QSC waveguides and noted that the price has gone up to $12.50. Still a steal, but more than I paid last time.
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post #25 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Also there are Pi speaker kits

http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/pr...8/reviews_id/2

I was considering buying his crossover for the pi Three speakers and buying the same drivers for my project (well I have the TD series drivers). Better looking speakers with Wayne's great designs.

Those look like some great DIY kits!
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post #26 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Lmao, that sounds like my wife

I think its all about the whole system from the speaker design/response to the amount of amplication, there simply isnt any "Stress" in the system...no "Stress" seems to make everything so damn clear.

Absolutely agree. WAF definitely becomes a limiting factor in how much we can cram into a room (even if we promise not to play it at full volume).

The speakers themselves weren't a hard sell. 5 subs and a few kW for the bottom end got a few eye rolls and my mutterings about "dynamics" did nothing to help the situation.
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post #27 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amik View Post

Back when I built my Nathans they were still at $1200 per pair but it was well known that price wouldn't last long.

Just ordered some more of the QSC waveguides and noted that the price has gone up to $12.50. Still a steal, but more than I paid last time.

Yeah, Geddes prices have gone up. I noticed that today when I was getting the prices above. I remember a PM about getting Abbey drivers/waveguide for just over $1000/pair (no crossover). I didnt do it though and found the QSCs instead.

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post #28 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Do you follow LeCache (sp?) horn discussions over on DIYAudio?

Those very large horns seem to be popular over in Europe but we never see any in North American.

Yeah, there are a few different options for 300hz horns, but IIRC none are remotely affordable. DIY is also out of the question for most of us unless you have access to a SERIOUS lathe.

In theory a plastic 300hz horn should be pretty cheap to mass produce and one could dampen it using sand or plumbers putty etc.

I've been lucky enough to score some Altec Manatry horns (500hz) and some 1003b tar filled multicells (300hz) via Craig's List for next to nothing.

Unfortunately there just isnt' a reasonable cost solution to full range horns, even if you can DIY most of it.
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post #29 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

Yeah, there are a few different options for 300hz horns, but IIRC none are remotely affordable. DIY is also out of the question for most of us unless you have access to a SERIOUS lathe.

In theory a plastic 300hz horn should be pretty cheap to mass produce and one could dampen it using sand or plumbers putty etc.

I've been lucky enough to score some Altec Manatry horns (500hz) and some 1003b tar filled multicells (300hz) via Craig's List for next to nothing.

Unfortunately there just isnt' a reasonable cost solution to full range horns, even if you can DIY most of it.

I did inquiry about some horns recently.....

"Usually this kind of horns we sell between 150-200 USD per horn but we must have guarantee for minimum 10 horns to be sold. There is a chance I could convince Italian companies - they invest in such unusual projects.

And we live in Poland so shipping by the air is pricey."

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post #30 of 46 Old 11-18-2009, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post

With comments like "these are best speakers I've heard in 30years" I'm just curious why the DIY crowd isn't jumping on the designs.

There aren't a lot of DIY waveguides because the real deals are dirt cheap. It's just a matter of finding the good ones.

There ARE, however, DIYers working with waveguide system designs using these. It's a paradigm that has not yet garnered widespread acceptance for home use. Horns are "honky;" everybody knows that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommygee View Post

On average, what is the cost per speaker with these DIY versions that you guys are building?

~$220 a pair for the standard entry-level EconoWaves plus whatever woofers and cabs you use with them.

79 AK DIYers have "Officially" built thus far, each linked from "Member Projects" in the first post:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=150939

There are easily over 100 systems shown in the thread as some have built multiples.

Articles have appeared in Wired and Make magazines, and there's a YouTube video on building the crossovers.

Geddes measured the waveguides and in some respects they outperform his own. The results are posted here on AVS in Penngray's thread.

In a recent shootout with Yorkville Unities and Geddes Abbeys, Advent EconoWaves were dubbed the "value leader."

The main thread now has over 8200 posts and will hit 448,000 views today....

Comparo:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=262345

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....Crank up the SIGNAL ... cut back the noise....
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