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post #91 of 144 Old 04-08-2010, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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It's been some time now, but I ordered a BFD, which will hopefully bring me into a much better position.


Things have changed a bit since my last posted response graph, so I will go ahead and show some pre-BFD graphs.

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post #92 of 144 Old 04-08-2010, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Sub + Speakers
That is the response with the sub closer to the corner than my previous graph and I believe the tuning is higher (14.5-15hz) this time.


Sub only
This is the sub response with the estimated response of one possible BFD filter setup.



I have found that the reason for the respone dip in the mid-low 20s is because the wall by the sub likes to really vibrate in that range
(it barely vibrates except for 22-26hz)

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post #93 of 144 Old 04-10-2010, 04:50 AM - Thread Starter
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It should arrive today, exciting.

I have to go take the ACT, but when I get back later, I'll prob prepare.

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post #94 of 144 Old 04-11-2010, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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There was a delivery exception (no attempted delivery, it says), so I am assuming they A) ran out of time, B) found it inconvenient to come, or C) were wanting to get home because it was Saturday.

It is rescheduled for Tuesday, but I would not be surprised if it came tomorrow since it is already at the local station.

I could have gone to a local store and bought it for the same price, so next time I will probably do that, with the amp.

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post #95 of 144 Old 04-27-2010, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Today I was going to look at carpet to cover it (have not done that yet), but we ended up staying at Guitar Center too long. Thus, the carpet has to wait.

I watched Sherlock Holmes tonight as well. It turns out that it's the best my system has sounded so far. The subwoofer sounded the deepest yet, so there is some hope in the mix. Sine waves don't end up too well, though.

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post #96 of 144 Old 04-27-2010, 10:59 PM
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Glad you have kept at it, I suggested that something must be vibrating sympathetically to rob you of output, and you found that to be part of the problem.

Wait until you get a bigger amp to throw on that driver, it will wake it up for sure.

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
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post #97 of 144 Old 05-01-2010, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I hope so!

I had to turn my receiver down to -30dB to keep from overdriving the amp on a THX intro. It's an awesome intro, but if I have to watch it at such a low level it's stupid.

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post #98 of 144 Old 05-02-2010, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Bass, I Love You is much more awesome now that the bass is balanced and I can actually hear the 18hz. Sounds quite awesome, but nowhere near what my expectations were when I started this project.

We'll see where the amp takes it.

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post #99 of 144 Old 05-20-2010, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Today I ordered the amp and hopefully it brings some life.

This old amp produced basically no bass with my speakers. We'll see if that's the deal.

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post #100 of 144 Old 05-25-2010, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Assuming the reliability of FedEx, I should have it within 2 hours.

My main worries/thoughts at this point:

Chances of damaging the driver with 2kW (chances of me accidentally leaving the volume up too high and then hitting clip are pretty good)

The effects on my house

If it will be enough or not

How to tell if the driver is being pushed too hard

If it will be in working condition upon arrival

Possible Hum - Input level issues

Chances of amp being damaged

Probably other things I am forgetting . . .

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post #101 of 144 Old 05-25-2010, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I believe that I have somewhat relieved the noise problem from the driver at certain frequencies.

Now I'll have to replace the EP4000 fan. It's REALLY loud as the room is basically dead silent otherwise.

I did not see the clip lights, but I didn't want to chance bottoming.

I have confirmed that it is still not loud enough with the amp and I'll need to build another sub unless there's another solution.

So far I'm pretty disappointed.

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post #102 of 144 Old 05-26-2010, 04:35 AM
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What levels are you used to listening at? With that sub you should be getting at least 110 db peaks. For movies and music for that matter its pretty loud.


I can't remember what you had before but what were your experiences with other subs?
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post #103 of 144 Old 05-26-2010, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey thanks for joining in to help.

I am sitting in a partial null, I think, which does not help.


I had a Paradigm UltraCube 10. It was kinda okay, but it was so quiet. I blew it pretty fast.

I can say that this amp is a good improvement, and I still am not done calibrating.

Also, pretty much any speaker that had decent bass in other houses lost it when I brought it in this room. It may be lossy to bass.

Once I am done calibrating, I'll see where I am.

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post #104 of 144 Old 05-26-2010, 06:08 AM
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What SPL can you get out of that sub @ 1m ?

Put ear plugs in and play a 20Hz and then 30Hz tones. Find out what your max SPL is.

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post #105 of 144 Old 05-26-2010, 08:11 AM
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I have an idea. This will rule out that anything is wrong with the sub. Take it in a different room and play it. It does sound like it may be your room doing that.
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post #106 of 144 Old 05-26-2010, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

What SPL can you get out of that sub @ 1m ?

Put ear plugs in and play a 20Hz and then 30Hz tones. Find out what your max SPL is.

I am worried about damaging the driver?




And brandonnash, I would try that, but there is no space for it (to even try) in the rest of the house. It would take a lot of work to make space.

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post #107 of 144 Old 05-26-2010, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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And by a method of 2 sec test bursts, I saw a reading no higher than 110dB. I did not see the clip lights either, but I'm sure I was right up there. The sub didn't sound very good . . .

The output hit 100dB at my listening position max.


It bottoms sometimes, and I do not see any clip lights, and I'm sure I'm not passing 500w.

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post #108 of 144 Old 05-26-2010, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm pretty sure something is wrong.

My speakers hit 110dB at my listening position without much problem . . .

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post #109 of 144 Old 05-26-2010, 02:29 PM
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Just to check, do you a high enough signal going to the amp? I got an EP4000 and used RCA - XLR cables but it wasn't loud at all. I needed to get the S-convert to up the signal voltage. Helped a ton.
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post #110 of 144 Old 05-26-2010, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes. I could give it several volts if needed. I could easily get the clip lights to come on if I wanted to.

I look at the driver and if it's not at its limits, then I don't know what being 'at the limit' is.

The sensitivity seems to come out about 80dB (77-84 depending on frequency) and it's just not very loud. The sensitivity has to be going somewhere.

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post #111 of 144 Old 05-26-2010, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I am trying not to give up, but it is hard. I'll have to continue experimenting.

I also am not sure what's missing in the SQ. It seems to be missing punch (even if that punch might be a freq boost somewhere) and depth.


With the results I have been getting thus far, a higher tune or more efficient driver might be better. I can't be sure though, as I have not figured out what the problem is. So for those who recommended a pro driver may have been right. I'll have to watch WOTW to see if it is worth it. It doesn't sound as deep as I would have expected.

. . . not sure what to troubleshoot anymore.

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post #112 of 144 Old 05-27-2010, 09:59 AM
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If its your room that's causing this problem you can add and add and still probably have a problem. If you take a corvette and add horsepower to it it should go faster, but it will have a limited top speed if its trying to haul 2 tons of concrete behind it.
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post #113 of 144 Old 05-28-2010, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

If its your room that's causing this problem you can add and add and still probably have a problem. If you take a corvette and add horsepower to it it should go faster, but it will have a limited top speed if its trying to haul 2 tons of concrete behind it.

Maybe so, and if that's the case, then it's sad that I can't go to any other room.



I tried boosting the signal 18dB (and dropping the receiver's output and lowering the gain knob a bit). No diff really. The driver starting making bad noises at the same SPL (I am right in front of the driver, can barely feel it).

The whole subwoofer visibly shakes a bit with lower freqencies, so maybe it needs a bit of work?


I remember these speakers outside in a pavillion (size of a basketball court) once. There were 2 of them, one on each side widthwise, each with a 12" driver and a horn. There was a QSC amp with 200w/ch at the speaker impedance rating. They were playing a song and turned it up a bit, and I could strongly feel it from the other side of the pavillion.

I understand they were Klipsch pro speakers and probably had high sensitivity.

It's funny because here I am with a large 18" subwoofer on a 2000w amp in a 2500 cubic foot (with a large opening into 8000 cubic feet) room and I have yet to feel it.


I also remember, not far from that same pavillion, a building where they had maybe 12 15" drivers and a few 12s spread across the front of a stage in a very large room (200x80x40 feet, I bet, probably larger).

They played Breathe Into Me by Red and I could easily feel it when it was at normal volume. Then they played this rap song and it was awesomely loud, the bass. I could feel the bass after I left the building, and I could hear the bass long after I stopped being able to see the building.

Then I also remember, in another room, even larger than the first, they have 4 18" subwoofers which can easily be felt as well. It is owned by the same people.


Not only could I feel it in these situations, but it sounded great too, especially 2nd room.


So then I go back to, why can 2 12s on 400w total be felt outside on opposite ends of a pavillion when I cannot feel an 18" in a small room with a 2000w amp backing it?


...

I currently have the subwoofer turned off as it seems to cause "more harm than good."

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post #114 of 144 Old 05-28-2010, 10:19 PM
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It has to be something wrong with the actual driver or wiring...granted...those experiences above might not be met with this sub...but you should deff be having your world rocked with an 18 and 2000 watts of clean power...have we ruled out wiring and is there any way to replace the driver?
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post #115 of 144 Old 05-28-2010, 10:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I will just move the home theater into the closet


Just kiddin'


I am 100% sure about the wiring.
However, the driver - I could replace it if I had to. The problem is where do I get another driver to replace it with?

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post #116 of 144 Old 05-29-2010, 12:30 PM
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It sounds like the 'experience' or feeling you are looking for isn't what you can generate with the current device you have.

1) The room is lossy, the output from the device is being dissipated in >10,000 cubic feet, and every surface that sympathetically vibrates will be robbing you of output at low frequencies.

2) You checked outside, and noticed that the output scales pretty linear with the input, so it's not the subwoofer driver. It is working as intended, but it's design band of operation is also where your room is the most lossy.

3) Impact, that kick in the chest / punch feeling is much higher in frequency than the subwoofer you built is designed to reproduce. Not that it can't do it, but it will be a lot less efficient than something like a pro sound oriented cabinet.

4) Output @ 40-80 hz is less likely to be absorbed by walls, ceilings, floors etc vibrating because it's generally much higher in frequency than the panel natural frequency ( how well they are made, how tall / long / thick, supports etc )

5) Cancellation between subwoofers and main speakers. Ported speakers have a rapid phase change around tuning. If your main speakers are ported, and the transition to a subwoofer isn't great, you will also loose energy around the upper mid bass. ( not much impact )

Depending on your desired crossover point, tuning point of the main speakers, etc, you may be able to eq the main speakers rolloff to simulate that of a sealed speaker, and achieve an easier transition with less cancellation.

I hope this helps. Can you rent a pro sound subwoofer to try it out to see if it will meet your needs?

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post #117 of 144 Old 05-30-2010, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

It sounds like the 'experience' or feeling you are looking for isn't what you can generate with the current device you have.

1) The room is lossy, the output from the device is being dissipated in >10,000 cubic feet, and every surface that sympathetically vibrates will be robbing you of output at low frequencies.

2) You checked outside, and noticed that the output scales pretty linear with the input, so it's not the subwoofer driver. It is working as intended, but it's design band of operation is also where your room is the most lossy.

3) Impact, that kick in the chest / punch feeling is much higher in frequency than the subwoofer you built is designed to reproduce. Not that it can't do it, but it will be a lot less efficient than something like a pro sound oriented cabinet.

4) Output @ 40-80 hz is less likely to be absorbed by walls, ceilings, floors etc vibrating because it's generally much higher in frequency than the panel natural frequency ( how well they are made, how tall / long / thick, supports etc )

5) Cancellation between subwoofers and main speakers. Ported speakers have a rapid phase change around tuning. If your main speakers are ported, and the transition to a subwoofer isn't great, you will also loose energy around the upper mid bass. ( not much impact )

Depending on your desired crossover point, tuning point of the main speakers, etc, you may be able to eq the main speakers rolloff to simulate that of a sealed speaker, and achieve an easier transition with less cancellation.

I hope this helps. Can you rent a pro sound subwoofer to try it out to see if it will meet your needs?

Yes, my thoughts as well.

My mains are tuned 43hz, I have them crossed at 50. The resulting response is flat, but is it possible that a cancellation should still occur and I would lose energy somehow? I doubt it. Bumping the freq response and trying other things does not seem to work.

I've been wanting to try a pro audio sub to see, but it costs too much right now.

I never glued the top cap on the sub, and so it popped off a bit from bass and vibrates loudly. I should probably do something about that.

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post #118 of 144 Old 06-01-2010, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I had a dream.

The subwoofer, I kept banging on it to try to get it to work. By the end of that sequence, The sonotube was all frayed and the legs broken. The driver was on the ground and I was thinking (in the dream) that I should build a sealed box. ... If I'm dreaming about it, it must be pretty bad


Then I moved on to the next dream..

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post #119 of 144 Old 06-01-2010, 09:57 PM
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you gotta be having some isses with your enclosure design or room, bud. i have two fi ssd18's and even running one of them in a 8 cube box tuned to 20 hertz with about 400 watts was enough to make most people i demoed it for tap out. now im running both on a 5kw amp, and they make my neighbors tap out when i turn it up.

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post #120 of 144 Old 06-02-2010, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arande2 View Post

I never glued the top cap on the sub, and so it popped off a bit from bass and vibrates loudly. I should probably do something about that.

This is not a good sign. Your driver and enclosure must be sealed well (except for the port) or there will be leaks and cancellation of output. I would guess that your enclosure leaves much to be desired and is leaving much of the drivers possible performance unrealized.
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