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post #121 of 144 Old 06-05-2010, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you everyone for the help.

As soon as I get sufficient motivationo, I'll see what I can do with the sub.

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post #122 of 144 Old 06-06-2010, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I decided to try some EQ yesterday along with some subwoofer crossover and level experimenting.

I always had the suspicion that I am looking for more upper frequencies, but I could never get it to work. I now tried it with the new amp and found that a change in crossover from 50hz to 100hz and a level boost of +6 gets me a lot closer to the sound I am looking for.

However, I need to continue to tweak to EQ to get the sound right, especially where there is a 'bass line' that needs to sound even across the scale. I have an idea though, probably not a new one.

I also need to build a second sub to shift the balance to the center.

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post #123 of 144 Old 06-06-2010, 08:24 AM
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What mains are you using?

Also, going back to your first page you said the sub had "VERY NOTICEABLE mechanical noise". Did you ever figure out why or why it just went away?

I'm no expert by far, but it sounds to me like you may have designed the sub for something that you weren't really looking for. You said you liked the 'punch in the chest' sound you heard from professional subs, but then built something tuned WAY lower. Aren't pro subs tuned much higher, like around 30hz +?


If I were you, I'd go back to the very beginning and remove and recheck the sub driver by itself. I'd then be tempted to build a much smaller enclosure, tune it higher and cross it over higher as well. Your first goal was for a slamming music sub, but I've never heard a great one built that large and tuned that low.

I hope you get it figured out.
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post #124 of 144 Old 06-06-2010, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

What mains are you using?

Also, going back to your first page you said the sub had "VERY NOTICEABLE mechanical noise". Did you ever figure out why or why it just went away?

I'm no expert by far, but it sounds to me like you may have designed the sub for something that you weren't really looking for. You said you liked the 'punch in the chest' sound you heard from professional subs, but then built something tuned WAY lower. Aren't pro subs tuned much higher, like around 30hz +?


If I were you, I'd go back to the very beginning and remove and recheck the sub driver by itself. I'd then be tempted to build a much smaller enclosure, tune it higher and cross it over higher as well. Your first goal was for a slamming music sub, but I've never heard a great one built that large and tuned that low.

I hope you get it figured out.

Hi Erich H

For what they are, they're not too bad. http://www.amazon.com/KLH-AV5001-Flo.../dp/B000021YTH

Yes, the mechanical noise seems to have gone away. I think the "amp" I was using before had something to do with it.

Indeed. My original idea was that the graphs said 120dB w/1000w input and that would be enough at any frequency. Apparently my enclosure needs help, limiting output, although nothing seems wrong superficially - at least until I crank it. I have grown to especially like the sub-30hz output and it is very nice for a lot of my favorite songs that have good sub-bass along with all the movies (about one a day on this system), so I could not just change the design. Instead, integrating a pro sub or building a second sub would probably do the trick.


Thank you. I will eventually find the answer, I am sure. It is out there. It's either right in front of me (forest for the trees), or it's something I will have to work hard to figure out (needle in the haystack). I doubt it's somewhere in the middle.

Time will tell.

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post #125 of 144 Old 06-06-2010, 09:25 AM
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Can you easily remove the PRs in the mains and cover up the holes? If so, that might well give you a cleaner crossover...
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post #126 of 144 Old 06-08-2010, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I can, but It wouldn't look very good It's not having enough effect for me to do that, anyway.

I was playing a song (Dancing Days (cover) by Stone Temple Pilots) and I saw the clip lights blinking with each drum kick. I thought it sounded pretty good, but the volume was about half as loud as I would have expected.

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post #127 of 144 Old 06-08-2010, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arande2 View Post

I can, but It wouldn't look very good It's not having enough effect for me to do that, anyway.

I was playing a song (Dancing Days (cover) by Stone Temple Pilots) and I saw the clip lights blinking with each drum kick. I thought it sounded pretty good, but the volume was about half as loud as I would have expected.

Aren't the PRs in back, anyway? Worth a shot, as it should be reversible.

Anyway, I assume you've tried playing with polarity, phase/delay, crossover points/slopes? Most of the time it's an empirical process, and the best result isn't necessarily what you might think going in.

That 60-130Hz suckout in the sub+main FR you have is really the opposite of what you want for impact. If anything, you'd want a bump up in that region for kick.
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post #128 of 144 Old 06-10-2010, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlag View Post

Aren't the PRs in back, anyway? Worth a shot, as it should be reversible.

Anyway, I assume you've tried playing with polarity, phase/delay, crossover points/slopes? Most of the time it's an empirical process, and the best result isn't necessarily what you might think going in.

That 60-130Hz suckout in the sub+main FR you have is really the opposite of what you want for impact. If anything, you'd want a bump up in that region for kick.

They are in the front. I might, as a 'just to try'

I've tried it all more than once, but I've often gone back and changed things after I thought I had tried all possibilities and found a solution.

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post #129 of 144 Old 07-05-2010, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Measuring the response with sub only, mains only - then sub + mains - does not seem to show any phase problems.

The max SPL I have read (during pod racer scene in Star Wars) has not exceeded 118dB in the spot opposite the subwoofer. It's pretty good at that SPL, but it's really not enough.

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post #130 of 144 Old 07-05-2010, 05:59 PM
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Looks like your mains aren't going low enough, and/or might about 10dB low relative to sub. You also may not have enough mains for your tastes.
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post #131 of 144 Old 12-27-2010, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I've done some tweaking since then, but the sub still hasn't been moved. The main differences are the tuning change from 13-14hz to 17-18hz, the amplifier power change from 80w to 1800-2000w, and the connection with 6ft of Cat5 twisted into 18g being replaced with 1ft of 10g wiring.

My listening AND measuring show that my non-EQ response is about 10dB shy of where it should be between 29-40hz. This means that I would need to boost 16-22dB in that range just to do a house curve. This is unacceptable and I think I will have to work on finding a better position that still doesn't have any major nulls.

I took some measurements, but forgot to apply calibration, so I should have them up soon. I have moved the subwoofer since then, but I should be able to apply the calibration post-measurement.

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post #132 of 144 Old 01-22-2011, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Since then I've re-done the positioning (the big problem was a lack of output between 30-50hz). Now it's much better, but now I can tell that the sound quality of my speakers is LACKING. That must be taken care of...

The main problems now are a 7dB dip from 19-27hz, which is kinda the reason I built a large sub... and uneven bass throughout the room, which is important since usually at least 2 people watch a movie at a time. I often cut it close (nearly bottoming) when watching a normal movie, which makes me nervous.

I can count the times I've bottomed it on two hands. In fact, I bottomed it a couple minutes ago while listening to music. The SPL meter showed 118dB at my LP (31.5hz) when it happened. I think it's because the amp clipped, though. It was fine before it hit the red. :\\

What gets me is why I have to really be cranking it to feel it, unlike large spaces I've been in where it's not very loud, but you get a strong kick in the chest.

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post #133 of 144 Old 05-26-2011, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Months later.. blah blah.. blah

I have finally graduated high school and may now be able to add the other subwoofer.

When I do this, I should finally be able to get rid of that noisy fan on the amp. I've been running the system without the subwoofer while the volume is low so that I could hear the music/movie.The reason I haven't done it yet is because the air coming out of the amp after I've listened to some music is often very hot (the fan having sped up a lot) and I'm sure replacing the fan would cause it to go thermal. With two drivers I can run the amp at 4 ohms/channel, so it should be able to handle full voltage (current) swings if I were to replace the fan then.

Now that all this time has passed, and I can finally understand it through experience, I will say that I either need to add more power to the 18-25hz range to overcome my room (2 drivers) OR re-align the system to run down to 25hz with better efficiency I was advised earlier in this thread.

It has become 100% music (movies have been phased out at this point). I have a few favorite songs that do have a lot of energy to 20-22hz, but the problem is my room.

I'll probably make a decision soon, and some advice from those with experience would help.

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post #134 of 144 Old 06-03-2012, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I decided there's no point in creating a whole new thread for this, so here's my latest update.

Today, after 2.5 years, I finally painted the sonotube black and added the internal damping it was lacking. I plan to assemble the system in my new room tonight or tomorrow. I've downsized from a fairly open 8000 cubic feet to 1800.

After toying with it all this time, I've learned a lot about acoustics. In my next post I should have everything put together and have recent measurements up.

I've decided that the fan noise on the EP4000 is too much (no swapping because I feel I push the amp too hard for that), especially for night listening. There is a closet in the opposite corner of the sub's likely end location and I am thinking about putting it in there; if I do this, there will be a 30 foot run for wire both ways. I'm wondering if I should worry much about Qes with series resistance. 12AWG gives .1 ohm so I'll probably do that, good balance. Also, I have a single dedicated 20-amp outlet that is literally a 1-foot run to the service box on the other side of the wall. Putting the amp in the closet would either mean running an extension cord to the closet or putting a 2nd receptacle in the closet (more work). Would there be an issue with using an extension cord? I'll more than likely put a receptacle in, but thought I'd ask about that here... It's a heavy-duty cord rated for a 15A circuit and the amp is 15A of course.

Laterrrr.

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post #135 of 144 Old 06-04-2012, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I found that this house has shiplap walls (made from some super-dense wood). Can anyone offer some info on how this might affect a subwoofer?

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post #136 of 144 Old 06-06-2012, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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sub1newhouse.jpg

This is my response graph after sticking the sub in the corner, running multiple sweeps, and adjusting the level to fit. Doesn't look too bad to me... tongue.gif 50hz crossover, amp knob to left (gain around 11dB), receiver output to -6dB. Didn't put the EQ in but I might not need it here...

With listening I will obviously be relocating the amp to the closet due to the fan. Everything sounds good so far, but I might add a house curve. I'll have to listen for a while to know. It annoys me that I had to spend ages to get a decent response in my old room, then in this one just sticking the sub in the corner and adjusting the level without EQ gets that response. rolleyes.gif

It does seem to sound great though - just a bit of midbass work and I should be set.

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post #137 of 144 Old 06-08-2012, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I measured again with the same settings in a similar spot, but with the subwoofer amp off and the speaker HP left on.
speakerslptxhouse.jpg

Comparing the graphs, I can see that the sub is extending the response to the low teens (it is currently tuned to 19hz, actually). I might try different cross-over settings and such to see if I can smooth out that upper band (58hz, 86hz). I didn't post a 1/6th smoothing graph, but when I look at 1/6th smoothing I can see that the 50-140hz region is 4-5dB shy, which can definitely be heard. One thing I don't like about my AVR is that it removes the ability to EQ the 62hz region when you set the speakers to small, so I can't do anything about that unless I set them to large and have them run along with the subwoofer (THD below 40hz is an issue then), add the EQ into the system and add some output from the sub at the midbass (could sound "unnatural" or some other appropriate description), or increase the cross-over frequency to see if I can get more even response from the sub (...).

The speakers by themselves seem to be harsh. I have had others in the room to listen with me for extra opinions and we unanimously agree that the bass guitar is hard to hear, there's not much kick to the bass drum, and voices don't have enough body. I'm assuming that I need to bring up the sub 500hz range a few dB. From my observations, I gather that my room has the majority of its modal issues through that range. Room treatment (beyond the current amount) is not an option, so I'll just have to experiment with EQ and placement until I hit that magic combination... rolleyes.gif

Fun fun...

...
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post #138 of 144 Old 06-16-2012, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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No EQ at current spot
subnoeqjune16.jpg
EQ added
subeqjune16.jpg

OKay, so I found that my measured flat response was a fluke. rolleyes.gif
No big deal, as I added in EQ to flatten and add a rising response. With music listening it seems about right, but with the way the mid-bass sounds (45-65hz region, I mean), I thought it might need a bit more there.

I have a blu-ray of The Haunting in Connecticut that I've never watched, so I decided to watch it as a test with the current calibration and for enjoyment. Everything was going great, although the mid-bass issue shows up here too, as well as the notion that I might need a bit more overall sub/LFE. The sub shakes the floor too much and it's distracting (I need to de-couple it). Anyway I reached the scene where the cancer-dude (idk his name) was spinning his little brother on the table. I was sucked into the scene (suspension of disbelief, you would say), then suddenly the authority of the house came in yelling at me to turn it down. She was on the opposite side of the house and said the windows and floor were rattling violently. mad.gif Thus I need to get something to de-couple the sub.

So far, I'm not super impressed with performance (but can hear the potential). During the "loud" scene, I occasionally glanced at the bfd to check level and the highest light I saw it hit is the third LED, meaning between 20-100 watts (the way I have it calibrated) at -13dB from reference. Hopefully de-coupling will minimize floor transfer. rolleyes.gif I'm a bit worried about turning it up to satisfying levels with the sub on if it's going to "violently rattle the windows" on the other end of the house at only 50 watts of drive (and more importantly cause someone to come in yelling during a scene, ruining it! My heart's still shaken from that).

... mad.gif

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post #139 of 144 Old 07-07-2012, 12:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Lots of tweaking has occurred since the last post, all in an attempt to get the best from what I have... I really need to go hear another setup for a frame-of-reference. I've been to theaters and A/V showrooms, but the theaters never sound right confused.gif and the showroom systems are almost never "gripping" in their presentation of recordings.

The most important change I've made is with the addition of foam under the subwoofer. The terribly annoying "floor-shaking" effect is subdued and I can actually hear the sub-40 notes in music now. I've also tightened the setup (less distance from LP to speakers), but haven't re-calibrated the sub yet, so it has this hollow sound (probably crossover cancellation) at the moment, thus it is left off.

I'm an avid Korn listener (no need to bash tongue.gif ), so their tracks are what I go to first for evaluating a new calibration. Currently, my favorite track for testing subwoofer integration is I'm Done. The bass drum is deep, the kick being right around the XO region and the decay going into the low 30s. Properly reproduced, there's a great palpable presence. In my system's current state, it sounds disjointed if I turn the subwoofer on.

Also, I might try to organize the info from all of my posts into the original so that it's not such a big hassle. Oftentimes I'll be searching for something (Google) and the only information I can even find is in old threads I've created, as if I'm the only one thinking about it (more likely it's a vernacular discrepancy).

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post #140 of 144 Old 07-07-2012, 10:33 PM
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Going on your last post with the eq it looks like you're just way too hot in the low end. You're at +15 db at ~17 hz compared to the high end. Tame that and I think you'll be ok. Will help with the floor shaking too if you don't like that.

Can you eq again to see if there is any difference after the padding you have added?
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post #141 of 144 Old 07-31-2012, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Going on your last post with the eq it looks like you're just way too hot in the low end. You're at +15 db at ~17 hz compared to the high end. Tame that and I think you'll be ok. Will help with the floor shaking too if you don't like that.
Can you eq again to see if there is any difference after the padding you have added?

Hey thanks. I got busy and ended up moving. The system is stuck several states away for a couple of months. I never measured after placing the foam. It doesn't matter now since the system will be moved and calibrated yet again later this year. For now, I'm getting by with my previous 2004 Yamaha receiver driving Bose 100s from 1996... redface.gif

I am contemplating a portable subwoofer build though wink.gif May put up a thread soon.

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post #142 of 144 Old 07-31-2012, 12:24 PM
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Cheap and effective and pretty easy to build...go with the f20. You could be done and up and rolling in a few hours and you may be surprised with the results.
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post #143 of 144 Old 08-04-2012, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I may just end up waiting out two months with bad sound. The LLT theoretically weighs 165lb. Due to its size, that means it takes two people to carry it.

After years of use, I've finally seen that to make good use of sub-30 response a proper room is needed. The only environments I've experienced good sub-30 bass in using my own equipment are with headphones and outside with the LLT. That said, I'm thinking of cutting the 6 foot tube down to 3 feet before moving it back. That changes the volume to a non-LLT 14cuft and raises tuning to 27hz. The result is a broad peak at 33hz going to 25/65hz -3dB. Of course, some sort of port plug would be devised, allowing a .7Q sealed enclosure with 30hz -3dB.

No worries about the room gain - there's the 30hz HP on the amp and the rising response is desirable for me. This probably won't happen until Thanksgiving, but I decided to put this up in case there are any comments about what this might do the sound. As for the whole sub-30 thing, I'll have to re-visit that later on.

Although I like the feeling of a good recording that contains realistic LF information, I also like intense synth low-midbass like used in Korn. The 48hz booms during the breakdown of Falling Away From Me and the 55hz smooth backing to the breakdown in Dirty are very relaxing or exciting depending on mood biggrin.gif The deep bass is great too. Lots of their music has strong content to 32hz or so. I can forego the sub-30 info if I really have to, but the feel is lost in some songs like Souvenir. Right before the chorus there's this effect (drums) that carries very strong energy to 13hz and it really adds to the song. Most of the energy I crave is in the 40-60 region, though, but it needs to reach at least 30 for proper weight.

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post #144 of 144 Old 08-04-2012, 05:27 PM
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Once again, if you're looking for powerful 30+hz response the horns are a good way to go. Most have a good response up to 100 or so hz. In their operable range the sound is very powerful.
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