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post #181 of 232 Old 09-10-2010, 03:45 PM
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My fracking head is spinning

LP THT, Easy Button MAX, Bootleg SPUD plans, build a dozen sealed boxes with .................drivers, Sono tube towers, might just write a check to HSU. But where is the fun in that?
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post #182 of 232 Old 09-10-2010, 04:05 PM
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Yeah I hear you - I pushed the "easy button" at partsexpress for THT LP parts, going to build that first. I'll keep looking at these other options too, but for me, given this will be my first speaker build, I figure get one under my belt that has fairly clear plans setup. I can always build something else, and maybe even commit the cardinal sin of mixing subwoofers (hope Bill didn't hear that, he might revoke my THT LP plan).

Lower extension does sound cool - but honestly, the few times I've experienced it, I felt physically nauseous, so it can wait.
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post #183 of 232 Old 09-11-2010, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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You gotta gimme some time for the plans/drawings......I work on average 70-100 hours a week.....

JSS
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post #184 of 232 Old 09-11-2010, 11:10 AM
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I work on average 70-100 hours a week.....

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post #185 of 232 Old 09-23-2010, 12:49 PM
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Not trying to rush anyone, but anymore progress here?
I'm anxious to see how this plays out (pun slightly intended).
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post #186 of 232 Old 09-23-2010, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Gimme some time...should have a workable fold in the next week or two.

The TB W8-740P driver is well suited to front loaded horns (and tapped horns). I have several designs I have been working on, will post the hornresp graphs for them in the next few days. The best overall one I think is a 160L version (about 250L when folded and built), should be able to extend to high teens in room, about 33"x36"x12" exterior dims if I am calculating correctly. Still small enough to be hung up on a wall. By itself, with a proper highpass, 10-12dB below reference to 20Hz is possible. With multiples (at least 4), that can get to reference level. It does not need much power to get there..

What I need more than anything else is to know if the factory specs are close enough to the real thing (anyone measure one of these?). This was the case in the TB W6-1139SI driver I used for my proof of concept horn, but not sure about the W8.

Be patient, it will get folded.

JSS
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post #187 of 232 Old 09-23-2010, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

What I need more than anything else is to know if the factory specs are close enough to the real thing (anyone measure one of these?). This was the case in the TB W6-1139SI driver I used for my proof of concept horn, but not sure about the W8.

I will have some w8 740Ps in about 2-3 weeks and will be able to measure then. I will see if I can get some actual measurements sooner

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post #188 of 232 Old 09-23-2010, 05:37 PM
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Any more developments on the 15-20hz horns.
I'm keen to built something but if I can't then a THT will have to do.
How many 36" wide LP THT's would it take in a 4500-5000 cubic feet fully sealed room to get 110-115db's at 15hz or is it a case of adding more THT's will only give more db's from 20hz and up.
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post #189 of 232 Old 09-23-2010, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by crabra View Post

is it a case of adding more THT's will only give more db's from 20hz and up.

THTs V coupled as shown here will extend Fc about 5 to 7 Hz lower:
http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/vi....php?f=1&t=398

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post #190 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 12:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Bill: Measurements? V-Coupling will only extend the horn by a little over 2 feet, and increase the mouth area significantly. Won't that increase Fc? I remember modeling it once for someone who was thinking of using THTs outdoors for an outdoor HT scenario....you get more output, but not 5-7 Hz of extension, IIRC....that would be almost a 1/2 octave.....not easy to get from a 22Hz Fc to 15Hz Fc with only 2 more feet of horn....but I could be wrong.....


Crabra: after modeling and folding several 15-20Hz large folded horns, not one ever got built, so no development on that front. The horns were just too damned big. You think you can build a 700-900L horn until you have to fit it through doorways, hallways, and up stairs..... For comparison, the 24.5" standard THT is a 520 liter horn when folded, and is a 22Hz horn when corner loaded, and it is as big as can be comfortable for 2 people to move (esp with a lacquer finish)... To get into the sub-20Hz realm with power, you need a huge horn, or multiple smaller ones. I have been working on the multiple smaller route lately, to cancel room modes as well as get good spl for the $$ spent. The TB horns I am working on should get extension in room to just under 20Hz, possibly 17Hz, then response falls. Unless you have crazy room gain, a THT is simply not going to give you good, clean response far into the teens, because the horn's rising response into the passband amplifies any harmonics created by the driver, artificially driving up distortion. This is why horns have to be highpassed, or at least tested well before driving them with significant power below Fc (horn cutoff frequency). The THT with the Dayton Reference Driver can be driven pretty hard below Fc, as it is a very low distortion driver. I'm glad it is the go-to choice now for the THT. It is not as sensitive in the THT as the old DVC, but it works great in my THT.


Antripodean: That would be great. I need real figures to make sure these models are worth folding up and making drawings for. I have 6 basic models I am working with:

1. ~22Hz 115 liter
2. ~17Hz 160 liter
3. ~20Hz 200 liter - more efficient
4. ~30Hz 115 liter
5. ~30Hz 150 liter - more efficient
6. ~20Hz between 115-160 liter

I also have been playing with a 250 liter 15Hz version, but I'm not happy with it.

All of these liter numbers are prior to folding, you can add about 50% to these values for volume of the cab after folding....

All of them need multiples to work well in room, unless you are only listening at -15dB levels, in that case, 1 or 2 can be used. To get reference level, you need 4 of them, and preferably 8, all corner loaded. The 17Hz variant has a chance to reach 15Hz (and maybe lower) in room.

My goal is to design them to be wall-mountable, and use the ceiling/wall corners to load the horns, to use ZERO floorspace.....paint them the same color as the wall, and they could almost fit into the decor of the room....

JSS
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post #191 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post



Crabra: after modeling and folding several 15-20Hz large folded horns, not one ever got built, so no development on that front. The horns were just too damned big. You think you can build a 700-900L horn until you have to fit it through doorways, hallways, and up stairs..... For comparison, the 24.5" standard THT is a 520 liter horn when folded, and is a 22Hz horn when corner loaded, and it is as big as can be comfortable for 2 people to move (esp with a lacquer finish)... To get into the sub-20Hz realm with power, you need a huge horn, or multiple smaller ones. I have been working on the multiple smaller route lately, to cancel room modes as well as get good spl for the $$ spent. The TB horns I am working on should get extension in room to just under 20Hz, possibly 17Hz, then response falls. Unless you have crazy room gain, a THT is simply not going to give you good, clean response far into the teens, because the horn's rising response into the passband amplifies any harmonics created by the driver, artificially driving up distortion. This is why horns have to be highpassed, or at least tested well before driving them with significant power below Fc (horn cutoff frequency). The THT with the Dayton Reference Driver can be driven pretty hard below Fc, as it is a very low distortion driver. I'm glad it is the go-to choice now for the THT. It is not as sensitive in the THT as the old DVC, but it works great in my THT.
JSS

The one with the Mal-x caught my attention a while back but I'm in the process of moving back to the country (so I can't disturb anyone) so I won't be building one for myself just yet.
I have some Seaton Catalysts boxed up ready for the next theater so I will want something that can match up well to them.
Size won't be a problem (I know I say that now) because the house and more important the theater will be built from the ground up to suit my needs.
I guess I could just get 4 submersive's or 2 terraform XL's but it's nice to save money when you can.
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post #192 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 03:42 AM
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Your idea reminds me of the THX in-wall subs by BGcorp.

I dont know what the anarchy 6.5 tapped horn was able to do but I think everyone was saying that 1 on each wall would do reference volume but not sure what it would extend to.

What are you trying to achieve extension wise Max?

Would it be possible to have the teens or lower hz extension with your build?

I wouldn't mind building 4 anarchy TH but not sure they would have near the same impact as a single THT although overall bass might more even with 4 subs on different walls. PLUS I already have the THT supplies so I will go ahead with one of these for now. The anarchy would cost the same for one because of the shipping costs to OZ.

Are you still using the TB driver or no?
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post #193 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

....... To get into the sub-20Hz realm with power, you need a huge horn, or multiple smaller ones.......JSS

How did danley do it with the DTS-10, I know its still large but it didnt seem to bother all those that built it.

Any way of getting a DIY version similar to the DTS-10?

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post #194 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

How did danley do it with the DTS-10, I know its still large but it didnt seem to bother all those that built it.

Any way of getting a DIY version similar to the DTS-10?

This. +1,000,000,000

That is the ONLY horn sub that I am interested in anymore these days.

My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #195 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Yeah I hear you - I pushed the "easy button" at partsexpress for THT LP parts, going to build that first. I'll keep looking at these other options too, but for me, given this will be my first speaker build, I figure get one under my belt that has fairly clear plans setup. I can always build something else, and maybe even commit the cardinal sin of mixing subwoofers (hope Bill didn't hear that, he might revoke my THT LP plan).

Lower extension does sound cool - but honestly, the few times I've experienced it, I felt physically nauseous, so it can wait.

I helped a friend of mine build two THT LPs recently. He has them in a very a large room with a vaulted 16 foot ceiling and huge openings to other large rooms. I suggested the THTs because he was on a budget, had the space and needed the output due to the room size.

With nothing more than a Behringer MIC2200 for SSF and two crude PEQ filters we were able to get it pretty damn flat to about 20hz. We haven't even played with turning one or both subs upside down to see how that changes the response.

If you aren't seeking sub 20hz stuff, the THT LP is a good route. They really do sound effortless and his room is a tall order.

JSS did a horn design for my HT. I've had some delays in building the HT, but it is getting drywall in the next few weeks. I plan to put together some sealed MX-18's to get me going, then I might tinker with a horn or two. The dimensions would be 28"x30"x80". I would lay them flat under my screen. His sims show 125db at 15hz in half space I think.

It's still in the plans. I just haven't gotten to it yet. It will probably a winter project.
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post #196 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

How did danley do it with the DTS-10, I know its still large but it didnt seem to bother all those that built it.

Any way of getting a DIY version similar to the DTS-10?

If it's what I think it is, there's no driver with the right specs available to make a clone.

Since this is the kind of TH concept, BW that has been my only interest for this kind of bass-horn, I posted several simple tapped pipe horn designs on the DIYaudio forum when THs became the 'hot ticket', but there was < zero interest, so didn't pursue it since I'm still in no position to follow through just for my own use. When the kit came along, I was tempted to broach the subject again when some folks lamented too high a price/too big/whatever, but now that it's no longer available, maybe it's time to re-visit this subject.

GM

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post #197 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 11:12 AM
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Any way of getting a DIY version similar to the DTS-10?

What about the more junior Spud Version?
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post #198 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

How did danley do it with the DTS-10, I know its still large but it didnt seem to bother all those that built it.

Any way of getting a DIY version similar to the DTS-10?

The primary issue is one of driver selection, as GPM stated. The driver used in the DTS10 is a custom piece, and is certainly optimized for the cabinet it is in.

For me, while the performance is amazing, the form factor of something like a DTS-10 is prohibitive in my room, so I've not even considered making something like that for myself. However, I do I have some tapped horn ideas simmering away that will get me response to below 15 Hz, and will do so in less than 20 cubic feet when folded, in a form factor that is friendly to my room.

Are they a DTS clone? Absolutely not, my fold is a completely different shape and uses a single driver.
Are they as efficient? Nowhere close.
Will they take as much power? Nope.
Do they reach as deep? Nope.

When will I make and measure one?
I'm working on it...

As radman12 stated in another thread - it has been summertime, and in the summertime there are lots more fun things to do...... I've not done much with the audio projects as a result.

Will it work for anyone else?
I have no idea.

Will I share what I have once I get it done?
Probably...if the results don't suck.....
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post #199 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lilmike View Post

The primary issue is one of driver selection, as GPM stated. The driver used in the DTS10 is a custom piece, and is certainly optimized for the cabinet it is in.

For me, while the performance is amazing, the form factor of something like a DTS-10 is prohibitive in my room, so I've not even considered making something like that for myself. However, I do I have some tapped horn ideas simmering away that will get me response to below 15 Hz, and will do so in less than 20 cubic feet when folded, in a form factor that is friendly to my room.

Are they a DTS clone? Absolutely not, my fold is a completely different shape and uses a single driver.
Are they as efficient? Nowhere close.
Will they take as much power? Nope.
Do they reach as deep? Nope.

When will I make and measure one?
I'm working on it...

As radman12 stated in another thread - it has been summertime, and in the summertime there are lots more fun things to do...... I've not done much with the audio projects as a result.

Will it work for anyone else?
I have no idea.

Will I share what I have once I get it done?
Probably...if the results don't suck.....

What up Mike,

The Shiva Horn Version 2.0 will kick ass....I have no doubt....15Hz extension, single 12" driver....You know I am one of your #1 fans....

But you already know that I stick to OD, FL horns.....easy to fold, WYSIWYG, esp w/ the par function in hornresp.....

And FLH have some advantages over TH, and TH have some advantages over FLH, so 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of other....

FLHs give up space, THs get more extension for same amt of space.....

Unfortunately, I don't even have time to mock-up a proto after a fold....but my proof of concept was very close (within +/- 1.5dB to hornresp in passband), and even closer once par function was included, so I am pretty confident a spiral horn topology will yield what hornresp says (or damned close), within reason.....tapped horns are harder, with all the 180 deg folds.....but tapped horns can yield more extension for a given cab volume....

You have to choose where to get off the train....

But a few Shiva MkII 2.0 horns will make most HT rooms SHAKE, if I have any clairvoyance....


JSS
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post #200 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I helped a friend of mine build two THT LPs recently. He has them in a very a large room with a vaulted 16 foot ceiling and huge openings to other large rooms. I suggested the THTs because he was on a budget, had the space and needed the output due to the room size.

With nothing more than a Behringer MIC2200 for SSF and two crude PEQ filters we were able to get it pretty damn flat to about 20hz. We haven't even played with turning one or both subs upside down to see how that changes the response.

If you aren't seeking sub 20hz stuff, the THT LP is a good route. They really do sound effortless and his room is a tall order.

JSS did a horn design for my HT. I've had some delays in building the HT, but it is getting drywall in the next few weeks. I plan to put together some sealed MX-18's to get me going, then I might tinker with a horn or two. The dimensions would be 28"x30"x80". I would lay them flat under my screen. His sims show 125db at 15hz in half space I think.

It's still in the plans. I just haven't gotten to it yet. It will probably a winter project.


Good to hear from you!

The par option in hornresp changed your design a lot.....I would have to re-do it.....

"Put it on the Underhill's bill"....

JSS
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post #201 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 01:59 PM
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The legend of the DTS-10 is larger than life.

To quote TD's on the thing, "we are sending the 12 inch driver we use at first, there are other drivers that will work"

It is 686l exterior, and ~520l interior. Tuned to ~16Hz. If the HR style sim was to get around, and no one said it was the DTS-10, everyone would talk about how wrong and bumpy it was.
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post #202 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 03:03 PM
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The legend of the DTS-10 is larger than life.

To quote TD's on the thing, "we are sending the 12 inch driver we use at first, there are other drivers that will work"

It is 686l exterior, and ~520l interior. Tuned to ~16Hz. If the HR style sim was to get around, and no one said it was the DTS-10, everyone would talk about how wrong and bumpy it was.

Hey - keep it down - quiet parts quiet......

Mine is ~420 liters now, could go a little smaller, but it fits in the space I have nicely, which is my number 1 criteria.

One of these days I'll make some sawdust.
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post #203 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Good to hear from you!

The par option in hornresp changed your design a lot.....I would have to re-do it.....

"Put it on the Underhill's bill"....

JSS

Sorry for disappearing. Life got in the way. I definitely appreciate the effort you put forth on the design. I think it is top notch and would be exceptionally easy to build that way you folded it.

I'm not familiar with the "par" option in Hornresp. Is that from a new version?

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post #204 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 04:56 PM
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125db@15hz WoW.

I look forward to your next build Lilmike. I cant afford to build one off cabinets but it nice to try and learn what others are doing. I will try and someday learn more of the science of it but I just sit back and watch as you guys have the knowledge.

I dont even know how to fold a horn on the computer so I have alot to learn.

I guess I could try and do some builds from MDF but I couldn't afford to buy a bunch of different drivers to install and test.
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post #205 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 05:08 PM
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...... I will try and someday learn more of the science of it but I just sit back and watch as you guys have the knowledge.

.......

Don't say that - people might get the idea that I know what I am doing....

Seriously - I'm an amateur, just like lots of the others here. I'm just nuts enough to think I can model, fold, and build these things.
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post #206 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 05:19 PM
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I'm just nuts enough to think I can model, fold, and build these things.

And come up with some very successful designs in the process .

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post #207 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 05:22 PM
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Well I would be willing to try and build any ideas you have but I dont know if I could really input as much as others on here.

But as of now the only idea I had for extension is two Mael X 18's in a 15cf box tuned to 15hz. That was a box dimension of 28 x 48 x 24.

So I will keep a close eye on your next build.
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post #208 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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There are many ways to skin cat.

Many sealed boxes or IB gives you the most extension, bar none (maybe fan sub) Vented boxes, PR boxes and horns (and all other 1/4 wavelength devices) have more bandwidth limitation, but also net you more efficiency for the same driver count.

Coctostan,

The par (parabolic) function models what we build; a horn with 2 parallel sides. It also accounts for the changes in response I saw in my proof of concept horn that I modeled then measured.....

soho,

The DTS-10 is a marvel. The fact that it's hornresp model is bumpy is part of why I stay away from tapped horns.....for my proof of concept, here's what I got modeled v actual:



With the par function, the small hump up at 33Hz is in the model, and they would match more closely.....I thought it was a rear chamber match problem, but the par function accounted for it almost too well.....

For the same given box size and driver, if corner loading is to be had, tapped v FLH is a close race....and since FLH is so much easier to fold, I readily choose them, esp since I am so time limited nowadays....

JSS
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post #209 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

"Put it on the Underhill's bill"....
JSS

"Do you have caviar?

Si senor, Beluga, but it is 100 dollars a portion.

Oh, then I better just take two of those."


dbl

Let's all go to the lobby
....Let's all go to the lobby
........Let's all go to the lobby
............To get ourselves a treat!
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post #210 of 232 Old 09-24-2010, 06:21 PM
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The Par function should not really alter the area where the horn is at least 1/2 WL long. This would be right before the 5th harmonic and up. A very minor change in the peak and dip amplitudes may occur, but Hz shifts are caused by path length miscalculations.

The Par can alter the first two harmonics by making them more pronounced, and shift the first up or down, but I would look at the what is off up top first.

The closer to a true horn, the less the difference Par will make.

Which horn is this?
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