T nuts vs Hurricane nuts vs Barbed insert nuts. Which nuts are for you?? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 10:01 AM
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I use the socket head screws on this page

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=404_18
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post #62 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 10:03 AM
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Yep, I used those with the anchors, perfect.

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post #63 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 10:45 AM
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^ Thanks I will give them a try... on a piece of scrap ply.

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post #64 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanaris View Post

^ Thanks I will give them a try... on a piece of scrap ply.

I am anxious to here your feedback.

I was in that hex head screw/bolt and hurricane nut isle at Lowe's when my buddy turned around and said "hey what about these?" We had just had a hurricane nut crossthread and had to push it out and struggle with it.
When I stared at that for a couple of seconds I had the epiphany...took a box home and was blown away by the simplicity, the strength and user friendly-ness of them. Then of course, I was a little mad at myself for not having discovered them earlier and could have save hours of screwing around (no pun intended) on other builds.
The great thing is that they go in from the front so even if you have a nut or insert pull out, these things have coarse enough threads to STILL use that same hole and grip like nobody's business. All you need is some decent wood from them to penetrate.
If you screw on up or it gets damaged in some way, you can simply remove it and install another one, no need to mess with glue and blown out holes. The threads will pull them right into/through an inch or more of wood if you keep going with the drill. Once in and if they are pulled by extreme forces, they would tear the wood out around them before they ever let loose...multiple times the thread area when compared to the other solutions.
Like I said, the single best thing I discoverd from all of the builds.

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post #65 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

BTW, I used these this time for driver mounting.

Fantastic! They have a super strong grip, can be put in from the front, have amazing forgiveness for hitting the anchor hole becasue the screw can go in at just about any angle...amazing.
This is best solution I have found by far. I can't believe I missed these earlier, they are totally idiot proof and save loads of time messing around...probably the best build discovery in a while. Plus, they can handle #6 to #8 screws in the same anchor!

Cheap too, and come in packs from 10-50.

If you are doing a build in the near future, do yourself a favor and pick some up. You will thank me.

Nice Find, Ill have to try them out next time I used the barbed inserts , and im VERY glad I used the 10-32 over the 1/4... Because you really dont understand how much that 1/16 - 1/8" of play is going to help you if your even the slightest bit off on ONE of the insert holes
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post #66 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mj79 View Post

Nice Find, Ill have to try them out next time I used the barbed inserts , and im VERY glad I used the 10-32 over the 1/4... Because you really dont understand how much that 1/16 - 1/8" of play is going to help you if your even the slightest bit off on ONE of the insert holes

Agreed! I have had that experience one too many times.

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post #67 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

I am anxious to here your feedback.

I was in that hex head screw/bolt and hurricane nut isle at Lowe's when my buddy turned around and said "hey what about these?" We had just had a hurricane nut crossthread and had to push it out and struggle with it.
When I stared at that for a couple of seconds I had the epiphany...took a box home and was blown away by the simplicity, the strength and user friendly-ness of them. Then of course, I was a little mad at myself for not having discovered them earlier and could have save hours of screwing around (no pun intended) on other builds.
The great thing is that they go in from the front so even if you have a nut or insert pull out, these things have coarse enough threads to STILL use that same hole and grip like nobody's business. All you need is some decent wood from them to penetrate.
If you screw on up or it gets damaged in some way, you can simply remove it and install another one, no need to mess with glue and blown out holes. The threads will pull them right into/through an inch or more of wood if you keep going with the drill. Once in and if they are pulled by extreme forces, they would tear the wood out around them before they ever let loose...multiple times the thread area when compared to the other solutions.
Like I said, the single best thing I discoverd from all of the builds.



It almost seems like they would be more airtight than the inserts as well, seeing as your screwing them in and Completely filling the insert hole... Good find
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post #68 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

I am anxious to here your feedback.

I was in that hex head screw/bolt and hurricane nut isle at Lowe's when my buddy turned around and said "hey what about these?" We had just had a hurricane nut crossthread and had to push it out and struggle with it.
When I stared at that for a couple of seconds I had the epiphany...took a box home and was blown away by the simplicity, the strength and user friendly-ness of them. Then of course, I was a little mad at myself for not having discovered them earlier and could have save hours of screwing around (no pun intended) on other builds.
The great thing is that they go in from the front so even if you have a nut or insert pull out, these things have coarse enough threads to STILL use that same hole and grip like nobody's business. All you need is some decent wood from them to penetrate.
If you screw on up or it gets damaged in some way, you can simply remove it and install another one, no need to mess with glue and blown out holes. The threads will pull them right into/through an inch or more of wood if you keep going with the drill. Once in and if they are pulled by extreme forces, they would tear the wood out around them before they ever let loose...multiple times the thread area when compared to the other solutions.
Like I said, the single best thing I discoverd from all of the builds.

We've used those for a long time in other applications, never thought about them for subs though, definitely easy. The anchor part shouldn't be a problem at all, screw it in and leave it there but one thing I've found is the inner material is pretty soft, it has to be to accept the screw which is no problem if you're putting a screw in and leaving it there but if you remove and put it back the threads tend to loosen up and loose any grip they had. Shouldn't be a problem unless the driver needs to be removed multiple times for some reason.
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post #69 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakeman02 View Post

We've used those for a long time in other applications, never thought about them for subs though, definitely easy. The anchor part shouldn't be a problem at all, screw it in and leave it there but one thing I've found is the inner material is pretty soft, it has to be to accept the screw which is no problem if you're putting a screw in and leaving it there but if you remove and put it back the threads tend to loosen up and loose any grip they had. Shouldn't be a problem unless the driver needs to be removed multiple times for some reason.


Dont they make them that are all solid metal inside and out tho?
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post #70 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakeman02 View Post

it has to be to accept the screw which is no problem if you're putting a screw in and leaving it there but if you remove and put it back the threads tend to loosen up and loose any grip they had. Shouldn't be a problem unless the driver needs to be removed multiple times for some reason.

Ya, and the bonus is that you can simply remove the anchor if there is a problem with it.

Thread in a new one, voila! With the threads being so coarse, no worries.

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post #71 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 12:47 PM
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All this time I had a box of them and I didn't use them in my THT builds.... , this is the best thing so far ..thanks Jpmst3, for the tip.... it's excellent!!




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post #72 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mj79 View Post

Dont they make them that are all solid metal inside and out tho?

They are solid metal.
Of course, there is a hollow area in the center where the screw threads into...

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post #73 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanaris View Post

All this time I had a box of them and I didn't use them in my THT builds.... , this is the best thing so far ..thanks Jpmst3, for the tip.... it's excellent!!

Damn! I felt the same way.
I beat myself up over not thinking of it earlier.

Glad I could help. Hopefully, it will save someone some serious hassles on their next build.

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post #74 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

They are solid metal.
Of course, there is a hollow area in the center where the screw threads into...



Sorry, I meant ones that didnt have the softer internal threads But yea, great idea.. Looks like someone already gave them a shot, and it looks damn good!
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post #75 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mj79 View Post

Sorry, I meant ones that didnt have the softer internal threads But yea, great idea.. Looks like someone already gave them a shot, and it looks damn good!

Ya, I see where you are coming from. Even if the metal is softer for threading, there is so much more thread area inside when compared to t-nuts it more than makes up for the difference regardless of softness.

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post #76 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 09:40 PM
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The wide flange of the a t-nut, cleaned, with gorilla glue applied makes for a solid metal interface...although a bit of work.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/attachm...chmentid=12613

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=29968

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=29922

You can clip any residual overhang with a pair of lineman's pliers.
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post #77 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 09:45 PM
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Using t-nuts with mids and tweets is a whole other ballgame.

You can fasten those with pushpins.

The heavy subs are where the mounting becomes much more difficult and problematic.
My LMSs weigh in at 75lbs per driver....

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post #78 of 105 Old 02-15-2010, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

The heavy subs are where the mounting becomes much more difficult and problematic.

Not a problem at all for t-nuts when done correctly...they aint goin nowhere!
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post #79 of 105 Old 02-16-2010, 04:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikela View Post

Not a problem at all for t-nuts when done correctly...they aint goin nowhere!

No, but the point is that (for subs, especially horns) there are much easier to use methods that are just as strong if not stronger, can be replaced from the front, no need for glue, require almost no labor to install correctly, can handle multiple screw sizes and thread types, cannot be cross threaded, will not pop out under any circumstances, don't require exact alignment, are available at any home/hardware store, more friendly to heavy drivers and the problems that come from mounting them.

Wait until you have one break loose and spin inside the cabinet and have a 20-75 lb. driver to manipulate....If you have enough builds, it will happen on a heavy driver.

It's a whole other issue, if you can see the baffle and have tiny flanges to work with as in DIY speakers, but another if you have a sub where you don't have those conditions (which is what we have mainly been discussing)...for subs, you can have your t-nuts, I will never use them again.

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post #80 of 105 Old 02-16-2010, 05:36 AM
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You are right about t-nuts requiring additional effort, however, you will be waiting a long time for one to spin if you install them per the method I described. I also use a transfer punch (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=3577) to align my driver mounting holes so I don't end up out of alignment. I don't intend to remove them once installed as it would likely result in wood being removed. Many people have problems with t-nuts because they attempt to glue them in without first cleaning off the machining oil used to manufacture them.
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post #81 of 105 Old 02-16-2010, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mikela View Post

You are right about t-nuts requiring additional effort, however, you will be waiting a long time for one to spin if you install them per the method I described. I also use a centering tap to align my driver mounting holes so I don't end up out of alignment. I don't intend to remove them once installed as it would likely result in wood being removed. Many people have problems with t-nuts because they attempt to glue them without first cleaning off the machining oil used to manufacture them.

Ya, the cleaning is definitely a legitimate point that I am sure has led to some problems. Others should take note of that for sure.

Despite all of that, I have had a couple pop out and spin on me when working with the mega heavy drivers. Thank God it was only one and I was able to get to it from the back!
There are so many forces at play when you are manipulating large woofers..you practically need a crane to lift them and that can be with two people, especially on a recessed installation. All it takes is one slip with a heavy driver and you can have problems with blown out wood and nuts (not to mention your personal nuts). It is not like holding onto an 12 ounce mid or 2 ounce tweeter where you can carefully hold everything and take your time installing or removing.

I agree with you, if I was doing DIY 5.0 (which I will hopefully in the future) I will use t-nuts as the baffle would be a mess with anchors.

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post #82 of 105 Old 02-16-2010, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

There are so many forces at play when you are manipulating large woofers..you practically need a crane to lift them

I know exactly what you mean, I have 4 Fi IB18's.
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post #83 of 105 Old 02-17-2010, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

...There are so many forces at play when you are manipulating large woofers..you practically need a crane to lift them and that can be with two people, especially on a recessed installation...

I'm not picturing this. There should only be the force of gravity at work, and that force should be holding your driver securely on the baffle as you carefully insert the screws. Well, at least it holds my driver on the baffle as I insert the screws. What am I missing?
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post #84 of 105 Old 02-17-2010, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsmollin View Post

I'm not picturing this. There should only be the force of gravity at work, and that force should be holding your driver securely on the baffle as you carefully insert the screws. Well, at least it holds my driver on the baffle as I insert the screws. What am I missing?

Many DIY subs are recessed into the panel and the tolerances can be tight for aesthetic reasons. When mounting the driver or unmounting large heavy drivers it can be difficult to line up everything correctly even after one or two bolts have been started. If you get the opportunity to mount an 18" LMS-5400 you will see what I mean. (75 lbs)
You don't always have the luxury on every build to simply gently lower the driver into position with the mounting surface being parallel to the floor, as some enclosures themselves can weigh hundreds of pounds not allowing you to have things oriented conveniently.
When removing drivers in areas where it is difficult to reach all fasteners (ala horns) it is not always as easy as simple gravity.

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post #85 of 105 Old 02-17-2010, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsmollin View Post

I'm not picturing this. There should only be the force of gravity at work, and that force should be holding your driver securely on the baffle as you carefully insert the screws. Well, at least it holds my driver on the baffle as I insert the screws. What am I missing?

For an infinite baffle installation, you are typically dealing with a fixed installation and must lift the driver into position. I still contend that for a well executed t-nut installation (meaning: epoxied within a counterbore), you will destroy the baffle before you are able to spin it. However, not every installation will accomodate this configuration.
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post #86 of 105 Old 02-17-2010, 07:52 AM
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Use whatever you believe works best for you.

I personally have had glued t-nuts break loose/out the back and take the last layer of laminated plywood with it. I had have a very heavy driver unknowingly put lateral pressure on the bolt and when I tried to remove it cause it to spin out taking the wood and glue with it. From my experiences, I will be using a different fastener (at least on subs) because I don't want to risk that nightmare again.

You use what you feel most comfortable with.

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post #87 of 105 Old 02-17-2010, 08:09 AM
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I like JPMS method ..T-nuts might hold good when epoxied in good quality ply.. but in MDF no matter what adhesive you use it's risky having them turn and loosen ...when that happens it's a PITA.. especially if you're a dealing with a 40 pound driver....Once I had to carefully grind the head off a 10-32 machine bolt because it was spinning underneath.

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post #88 of 105 Old 02-17-2010, 09:09 AM
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OK, I'm seeing this clearer. I was imagining a stand-alone speaker enclosure that one could lay down, so the mounting surface is parallel to the floor. Mounting a 75 lb. driver onto a vertical surface is clearly more difficult. The cantelever force of the magnet assembly will push the screw back, while the gravitational force puts the screw into shear. It is really easy to see how this will damage a t-nut, or any other system that has its screw threads on the back of the baffle. The last mounting screw out needs to be supported at the front of the hole. This is why jpmst3 is so happy with the front-mounted anchors: The screw threads are on the front of the hole, and at the same time they won't bind in the hole if the screw is forced down by the shear load from the driver's vertical position.

I haven't tried to use the drill-point anchors in speaker construction, but in other applications I have found them problematical. They have a way of loosening up under the screw during installation. Maybe MDF is strong enough to hold them.
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post #89 of 105 Old 02-17-2010, 10:03 AM
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Another reason some folks may be having difficulty with their particular implementations of t-nuts is that most of them that I have used are not machined that well and will gall i.e., the bolt will lock up on the threads of the t-nut. That is most certainly a recipe for spinning the nut. I always run a tap from a tap & die set through them first which eliminates that issue. I have had zero problems but, again, it is labor intensive and may not be the best solution for everyone.
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post #90 of 105 Old 02-19-2010, 10:15 AM
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I just wanted to mark this thread so that I can come back to it sometime within a week. I don't have time to read through it now but need to make a decision on threaded inserts vs whatever options are out there... I'm going to have a ton of LMS Ultra 18" 'ers showing up sometime next week...
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