Maelstrom-X 21 tapped horn 384 cubic feet 5Hz-35Hz - AVS Forum
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Is it possible? I got swallowed up by the new fad a while back, but I am only concerned with 35Hz on down. I know these tapped horns are amazing, but I don't like how they perform better as you get higher in the FR. If I build one large enough to go low enough, this might just be my thing. Otherwise, I am still looking at dual 21's in 128 cubic feet each, 16" port each, 10Hz-15Hz tune. The portion of the room I'll be placing them in is over 8' x 12' in a 4' section... actually a little over 6" play in each direction. Is that big enough to be able to implement such a driver with such a bandwidth?
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:37 PM
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Hey there KW--

I'm trying to find a good solution to a low-tuned horn myself. Please feel free to peruse and/or contribute to my thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1220828

Unfortunately, after some hornresp modeling, it's becoming increasingly clear that horns don't like to play that far down. My fingers are crossed, but the excursion below 20Hz starts to get a little wild. I still have my fingers crossed, though.

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Old 01-27-2010, 05:54 PM
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Is an IB an option?

I mean the amount of space required is insane for a horn with 21" drivers and ability to go that low.

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Old 01-27-2010, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkiller4299 View Post

Hey there KW--

I'm trying to find a good solution to a low-tuned horn myself. Please feel free to peruse and/or contribute to my thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1220828

Unfortunately, after some hornresp modeling, it's becoming increasingly clear that horns don't like to play that far down. My fingers are crossed, but the excursion below 20Hz starts to get a little wild. I still have my fingers crossed, though.

Hey Killer, is this a general find... that horns don't like to play low? I guess I was assuming building it huge and tuning it lower would help with excursion. The other thing I am counting on, is it's taking a lot of explaining why large excursion large Sd drivers aren't good for TH's... well, in this case...that's the idea, using a high excursion 21" driver. I'll check your thread now!


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Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Is an IB an option?

I mean the amount of space required is insane for a horn with 21" drivers and ability to go that low.

NO.. i was considering IB in the beginning, quad drivers with 2 locations for smoothing, 2 drivers per manifold opposing eachother for vibration. That's just too boring!
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

NO.. i was considering IB in the beginning, quad drivers with 2 locations for smoothing, 2 drivers per manifold opposing eachother for vibration. That's just too boring!

Ahh, I see. Well, then that is a different story altogether.

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Old 01-27-2010, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Ahh, I see. Well, then that is a different story altogether.

I know what you're saying, if I wanted a cheap, easy, practical way to get loud down low, Fi IB3's are cheap... I could do 4 or 8 18's or wait for the 22's and do 4 of them...dirt cheap

I posted on the 10Hz thread, actually I read a lot of it yesterday
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

Hey Killer, is this a general find... that horns don't like to play low? I guess I was assuming building it huge and tuning it lower would help with excursion. The other thing I am counting on, is it's taking a lot of explaining why large excursion large Sd drivers aren't good for TH's... well, in this case...that's the idea, using a high excursion 21" driver. I'll check your thread now!


They can be used but the reason they are not is because the enclosures are huge! The op may not mind a 384 cubic foot enclosure but most people don't want to have to rent a crane and remove a wall of their house to move something like that in, let alone have the room to just give up the space involved with something like that. The dts-10 is ~26 cubic feet and its big. For the space of 384 cubic feet you could have 10-15 of the dts-10's.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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so is it possible.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:40 PM
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Possible? Maybe, depending on how well it models. Practical? Nope.
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Old 01-27-2010, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

Is it possible? I got swallowed up by the new fad a while back, but I am only concerned with 35Hz on down. I know these tapped horns are amazing, but I don't like how they perform better as you get higher in the FR.

What you are missing is that 35Hz IS high in freq-if you are talking about going down to 5Hz.

It is not so much the actual freq-but the relation of that freq to the low freq.

The tapped horn only works over a limited range.

You are talking just over a 3 Octave range-pretty wide.

Just because a driver may be good in a ported or sealed alignment does not make it necessarily good for a tapped horn.

It takes the proper driver-along with a proper design-to make a properly working cabinet.

Sometimes a "less performing" driver will actually work better than a premium driver.

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Old 01-27-2010, 08:49 PM
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What is your final goal? To have good flat and loud subwoofers or just a talking piece? If you want big bass there are better ways to go about it.
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Old 01-27-2010, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklahoma Wolf View Post

Possible? Maybe, depending on how well it models. Practical? Nope.

I specifically left out practical. I get just as frustrated as the average DIYer at their lack of willingness to sacrifice space as ya'll can get with me and my wants. If I wanted practical I could get 4 or 8 Fi IB3 18's and IB my basement. I used to rent but I bought my home so I can do this. If I didn't care about audio, I would buy small 4 cylinder 2 door cars for efficiency. I bought an ugly ass Aztek just for my speaker box. Stupid? ya, don't think I haven't been told that a miliion times. do I care? not really
How about the IB3 22 coming in a while... 4 of them IB in my basement. Now that's practical. but no thanks!
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

What you are missing is that 35Hz IS high in freq-if you are talking about going down to 5Hz.

It is not so much the actual freq-but the relation of that freq to the low freq.

The tapped horn only works over a limited range.

You are talking just over a 3 Octave range-pretty wide.

Just because a driver may be good in a ported or sealed alignment does not make it necessarily good for a tapped horn.

It takes the proper driver-along with a proper design-to make a properly working cabinet.

Sometimes a "less performing" driver will actually work better than a premium driver.

What's up Ivan! Thank you and your company for spending as much time as you do on the forums learning us DIYers... lol... it's in valuable.

OK, let me cut to the chase. I'm not really after 5Hz. 10Hz is plenty for me. Ya got me, so let me explain. People just don't get it when I say I'm not concerned with 35Hz on up. It is it's own argument. So I knew to drop it down for passband, believe me or not. Anything above 35Hz is icing.

I know one of the neat things about tapped is they only require "moderate" woofers with small power. I know this. I've seen the many many "well, will a Tempest-X work?" questions and I know high Xmax isn't so helpful. But, with 384 cubic feet wouldn't that allow for larger line area? Am I correct in that the only reason high excursion is a waste is because it overloads the line...so if we are willing to sacrifice so much more space and give the line more Sd, can't I then make use of a larger Xmax larger Sd driver? Or no... if not, you're the guy to ask :-D

And I know it's not just Xmax and Sd, it's all the Thiele... I got it man... but would any of you savy HR guys be willing to plug in an MX 21 quick and give me a rough guess?
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

What is your final goal? To have good flat and loud subwoofers or just a talking piece? If you want big bass there are better ways to go about it.

Brandon, I don't want to explain away repeatedly LOL... I have a Fi IB3 18 and it only cost me $240 shipped. What are they for 4? $800. A single MX is $650. I got it dude.

Since I got ya here, I haven't kept up on the DTS thread for quite a while, too much side stuff... can I ask ya your overall impression? Other than BLOWN AWAY lol.
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Old 01-28-2010, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

What's up Ivan! Thank you and your company for spending as much time as you do on the forums learning us DIYers... lol... it's in valuable.

OK, let me cut to the chase. I'm not really after 5Hz. 10Hz is plenty for me. Ya got me, so let me explain. People just don't get it when I say I'm not concerned with 35Hz on up. It is it's own argument. So I knew to drop it down for passband, believe me or not. Anything above 35Hz is icing.

I know one of the neat things about tapped is they only require "moderate" woofers with small power. I know this. I've seen the many many "well, will a Tempest-X work?" questions and I know high Xmax isn't so helpful. But, with 384 cubic feet wouldn't that allow for larger line area? Am I correct in that the only reason high excursion is a waste is because it overloads the line...so if we are willing to sacrifice so much more space and give the line more Sd, can't I then make use of a larger Xmax larger Sd driver? Or no... if not, you're the guy to ask :-D

And I know it's not just Xmax and Sd, it's all the Thiele... I got it man... but would any of you savy HR guys be willing to plug in an MX 21 quick and give me a rough guess?

As you said, there is a lot more than just Xmax.

As far as "plugging it into a model" I really have no comment on that-except that a lot of the Tapped horn model predictions are not as good as what Tom comes up with.

You have to remember the models are attempting to mimick what Tom was already doing-years ealier. There are some "un accounted for" issues that experience has shown how to deal with. Sorry-but those are trade secrets-so don't ask.

The real questions are how well do the models and the measurement finished product look the same? If they are they very close-then the model is good. If they are off-then either the construction was wrong or the model was wrong.

In some Tapped horn products-driver with large(r) Xmax are used, in others not-it depends on what the intended end result is.

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Old 01-28-2010, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

As you said, there is a lot more than just Xmax.

As far as "plugging it into a model" I really have no comment on that-except that a lot of the Tapped horn model predictions are not as good as what Tom comes up with.

You have to remember the models are attempting to mimick what Tom was already doing-years ealier. There are some "un accounted for" issues that experience has shown how to deal with. Sorry-but those are trade secrets-so don't ask.

The real questions are how well do the models and the measurement finished product look the same? If they are they very close-then the model is good. If they are off-then either the construction was wrong or the model was wrong.

In some Tapped horn products-driver with large(r) Xmax are used, in others not-it depends on what the intended end result is.

will you ask Tom real nicely for me to run it on his quick?

I'm not hard to please.. a genereally "good" responce will make me more than happy. when I play with WinISD and Bass Box Pro, I don't even get into 1st port resonance, I don't use multiple subs for smoothing, have never EQed or notch filtered, and I've never switched phase on a driver... wait, the latter is car audio... do you guys ever do that?
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Old 01-28-2010, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

will you ask Tom real nicely for me to run it on his quick?

I tried it out this morning in Hornresp. Wasn't easy, but I managed.

Good news and bad news. The MX 21 does work ok in a tapped horn design. That's the good news. The bad news is, the best I could do with it saw it hit Xmax at 10Hz with about 35V in. At that power level, you don't get reference level in half space anywhere... I got it to stay around 110dB. 1700cm length, 3000cc mouth. Goes way out of Xmax at 5Hz but does fine at 6Hz. 2700 liter design, 95 cubic feet.

Checked out the eighth space graph, and it will not do reference at 6Hz at all. Close but no cigar. It may hit 120dB at 10Hz, but it's really hard to say with Hornresp's graph limitations.
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Old 01-28-2010, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Well since we're down to 95 cubic feet: how will 2 of them do? A pair of these vs a pair of them in 128 cubes each ported?

THANKS MAN!
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Old 01-28-2010, 07:34 AM
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I don't have time to model the ported ones right now, but with two of them in half space I get 110dB at 6Hz, 112 at 7, 115 at 8, and 119 at 10. There's a big dip above that going down to 115 at 15, and then it shoots way up and goes all jagged around 30Hz.

At these sizes and frequencies, I'm thinking the effect of the room itself on the horn will have a lot of impact on these graphs. Not sure these numbers are even worth anything in the real world.

Also, the compression ratio is waaaaaay too high at 3.44:1. If I try to reduce it, the response falls totally apart. This woofer likes a huge mouth.
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Old 01-28-2010, 07:50 AM
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I've come up with a pretty decent Mal-X 18 folded horn that I may try to build. I was looking for 10-50 hz. 50 up my MBMs will take over (they may end up horns later too). I found the key being the rear chamber. I had to make it quite large to get the effiency and move the resonance out of the passband. I dont have the plan on me right now but it was 14 cubic feet for the rear chamber and about 5 feet for the horn length. Should be able to fold that up into a corner reasonably well.

It'll be far from small but thats kinda what I'm looking for.

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Old 01-28-2010, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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so the 21 is a no go, and the 18 is good? I mean this 18 you got going on... it should smash the THT builds and such... why spend $500 on a maelstrom - x in a TH if it isn't much louder than the $150 Dayton thats kickin ass right now.

(o ya, i wasn't going for practical, was I?)
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Old 01-28-2010, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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So SQ high Xmax low Fs drivers seem to be out, and I'm guessing high BL high SPL, high efficiency drivers are in. IA Warden and DP, AA Mayhem and Havoc, Fi BTL, HDC3, DD, Lv5....HCCA....
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Old 01-28-2010, 09:33 AM
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I don't know... I got a pretty decent looking sim out of the MX 21 with a more sane looking passband, say from 14Hz and up. I was able to use an 800cc mouth, and that gave me a decent compression ratio. Still a big ol' horn though. I've been meaning to model the B&C 21's as I know these are getting some horn use out there.

Stiff suspension seems to be an important factor for horns as well.
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Old 01-28-2010, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

So SQ high Xmax low Fs drivers seem to be out, and I'm guessing high BL high SPL, high efficiency drivers are in. IA Warden and DP, AA Mayhem and Havoc, Fi BTL, HDC3, DD, Lv5....HCCA....

Or get one (or two) custom made. There's not going to be a lot of off the shelf choices when it comes to drivers suitable for 5-25hz tapped horn applications. Danley couldn't have made the DTS-10 work without customizing that Lab-12.

YID DIY
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Old 01-28-2010, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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you're not only getting the same or a couple more dB with this huge driver and huge box than the THT and the like are you? I mean if the 21 in a huge monster box is equal to 2 or 3 or 4 of the THTs or 2 DTS-10's, awesome. But if it is just the same then I may consider doing 8 THT's with Dayton 15's. What are the external dims of the THT?
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Old 01-28-2010, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

will you ask Tom real nicely for me to run it on his quick?

There is no "quick" things-like just throwing it in a model. Tom works for months and longer on a design. There are a lot of little things that need to be "accounted for" in a proper design-and figuring out if something will work properly and how well.

His predictions are real good, when comparing the design/prediction and the actual finished product.

If you would like to pay for him to design something for you-then that is fine (other have done so)-but just be prepared to pay for a lot of his time.

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Old 01-28-2010, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

There is no "quick" things-like just throwing it in a model. Tom works for months and longer on a design. There are a lot of little things that need to be "accounted for" in a proper design-and figuring out if something will work properly and how well.

His predictions are real good, when comparing the design/prediction and the actual finished product.

If you would like to pay for him to design something for you-then that is fine (other have done so)-but just be prepared to pay for a lot of his time.

My only question is "is it possible" so a bang up job with a bang up outdated program is good enough for a go, no go. I am a DIYer at heart, but I am not ready to dive into HornResponce, AkAbak, and horns in general just yet, unless I decide to do this. If I am told it will work well, I'll do it all myself with the help of the forums. I love your DTS-10 kit but I would never get it, because I didn't design it, I didn't build it... I'd rather build one thats less capable knowing I did it myself and with the help of the forums...help from you
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Old 01-28-2010, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

What are the external dims of the THT?

The external dimensions of the THT are (in inches) 36x36xW, where W can be different. The plans include a cut list for a 36x36x24 box using three sheets of plywood (the 4x8 sheets), but there are build threads with widths of 18, 24, 30, and 36. The plans include details about what widths can be built and how the performance changes. Note that I haven't bought the plans, this is based on info from other threads.

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Old 01-28-2010, 12:30 PM
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But if it is just the same then I may consider doing 8 THT's with Dayton 15's.

Someone did this (built 8 THTs). They didn't have a build thread, but posted some info in someone else's THT build thread. I don't remember which one (there have been a lot ), but if you checked a few of them you should be able to find him. Look for a picture in a thread with 8 of them stacked in different configs. If you want to know how this would sound, he should be able to give you some info.

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Old 01-28-2010, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Someone did this (built 8 THTs). They didn't have a build thread, but posted some info in someone else's THT build thread. I don't remember which one (there have been a lot ), but if you checked a few of them you should be able to find him. Look for a picture in a thread with 8 of them stacked in different configs. If you want to know how this would sound, he should be able to give you some info.

well that either had to blow him away, or simply doing a bunch isn't very beneficial... cuz just 1 seems to be blowing people away..
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