The semi clone of JBL 3731's build thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 1381 Old 02-15-2010, 06:47 AM
Advanced Member
 
WiSounds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 921
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
You may want to look into an Ashly NE processor, it is a bit more pricey but you will have every bit of processing you will ever need. And it has selectable 48k or 96k processing. I use the NE8800 running 96k on my rig. They come in 4x4, 4x8, and 8x8 versions, so you could process your entire front stage and subs.

http://www.ashly.com/neseriesxx00.html

Let me know if you need more info.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

WiSounds is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 1381 Old 02-15-2010, 10:09 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,821
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 808
"dbx driverack series is a step up from the dcx, includes an RTA as well as 2x3 crossover (like getting a DCX, DEQ, BFD and BASSPRO unit all in one unit) http://www.dbxpro.com/PA+/index.php "

do you know if it has software that can run on a pc or is one limited to using the front panel controls?

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #93 of 1381 Old 02-15-2010, 10:10 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,821
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 808
does the klipshorn provide horn loading to 80hz? it seems a little small to be able to provide loading that low.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #94 of 1381 Old 02-15-2010, 10:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia; now run by adults.
Posts: 5,147
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

does the klipshorn provide horn loading to 80hz? it seems a little small to be able to provide loading that low.

Mine rolled off from 50Hz roughly with very solid floors and walls.
A9X-308 is offline  
post #95 of 1381 Old 02-15-2010, 10:31 AM
Advanced Member
 
Vinculum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: York, Pa
Posts: 942
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
It appears you are only allowed to update firmware and preset speaker/amp settings from a PC. You have to step up to the dbx driverack 4800/4820 series to get the full Harman HiQnet control. Now you are in the same league as the Ashley's that Wi mentioned ($4000+).
Vinculum is offline  
post #96 of 1381 Old 02-15-2010, 10:36 AM
Advanced Member
 
Vinculum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: York, Pa
Posts: 942
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

does the klipshorn provide horn loading to 80hz? it seems a little small to be able to provide loading that low.

The Klipshorn is quite different than the 2'x2'x2' La Scala bottom we were talking about. It is a larger corner loaded multifold horn.

Just wanted to make sure we're on the same page.
Vinculum is offline  
post #97 of 1381 Old 02-15-2010, 10:48 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,821
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 808
thanks v.

sorry, i meant the la scala horn. how low does it provide loading? i tried several designs in hornresp, but with no luck on the driver mk has.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #98 of 1381 Old 02-15-2010, 11:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
maxmercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 116
MK,

Here's a quick try....+/- 1.5dB from 80-400Hz. HRR attached.

Only thing I don't know about is how to sort out directivity and freq response vs coverage angles...maybe someone here can help with that...

38" path length, so a W-bin like LaScala would be ideal...

JSS

 

mkhorn.txt 0.3701171875k . file
maxmercy is offline  
post #99 of 1381 Old 02-15-2010, 12:23 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,821
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 808
maxmercy, where did you get mmd?

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #100 of 1381 Old 02-15-2010, 12:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
maxmercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 116
I let hornresp calculate it...ideally, you'd measure the drivers yourself...

JSS
maxmercy is offline  
post #101 of 1381 Old 02-15-2010, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 394
Thanks guys, will the la scala work then or will Maxmercy's be better? I would need the plans for this as I am not the greatest builder.
MKtheater is online now  
post #102 of 1381 Old 02-15-2010, 10:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia; now run by adults.
Posts: 5,147
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

MK,

Here's a quick try....+/- 1.5dB from 80-400Hz. HRR attached.

Only thing I don't know about is how to sort out directivity and freq response vs coverage angles...maybe someone here can help with that...

38" path length, so a W-bin like LaScala would be ideal...

JSS

Got a drawing of it?
A9X-308 is offline  
post #103 of 1381 Old 02-16-2010, 03:29 AM
Advanced Member
 
Vinculum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: York, Pa
Posts: 942
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Thanks guys, will the la scala work then or will Maxmercy's be better? I would need the plans for this as I am not the greatest builder.

PM me your email, and I'll send you all the junk in my La Scala folder. Its not that much, but it would be easier to just send attachments.
Vinculum is offline  
post #104 of 1381 Old 02-16-2010, 10:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
maxmercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Thanks guys, will the la scala work then or will Maxmercy's be better? I would need the plans for this as I am not the greatest builder.

MK,

I got the directivity answers I needed.....basically, you will need EQ to tame a rising response due to the size of the horn mouth (something that if I compensated for, I lost low freq sensitivity and extension), but check out this directivity. Simulated response on axis, and in 5 deg increments out to 30 degrees, for a 60 deg total dispersion, 2Pi space, 20V in, excursion at 80Hz is 2.5mm:



I cannot simulate directivity for more complex horns....hornresp doesn't allow it, and I am no Akabak master. But with some EQ tweaks (or something like Audyssey to do it for you, or even part of a crossover network, like a shelf filter), you can have some damned dynamic and accurate midbass sound.

With how well my Insubnia project measures compared to hornresp, I think this will work out well for you.

The BITCH will be the folding of this thing. As it needs to reach 400Hz, you'll need some smooth 'folds', no 90/180 deg folds with 45 deg reflectors....but LaScala uses crude folds and reflectors, so it may work...

I will need some time to generate a fold....it will have to be '3D', probably, with a vertically expanding segment to the split (the center cusp of the 'W') followed by a segment that expands horizontally...

JSS
maxmercy is offline  
post #105 of 1381 Old 02-16-2010, 11:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
maxmercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Wanna know how much EQ?

Do it actively or passively with a -30dB notch filter centered at 4kHz with a Q of 0.35....look what happens to the on-axis response...dashed graph is EQ'ed:



+/- 1.25dB response from 80-400Hz....higher freqs will fade away gradually as you move off axis, pictured above, and like any other design with a large radiating area would....

JSS
maxmercy is offline  
post #106 of 1381 Old 02-16-2010, 11:17 AM
Advanced Member
 
WiSounds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 921
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Wanna know how much EQ?

Do it actively or passively with a -30dB notch filter centered at 4kHz with a Q of 0.35....look what happens to the on-axis response...dashed graph is EQ'ed:



+/- 1.25dB response from 80-400Hz....higher freqs will fade away gradually as you move off axis, pictured above, and like any other design with a large radiating area would....

JSS

What cab and driver is this again?

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

WiSounds is offline  
post #107 of 1381 Old 02-16-2010, 11:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
maxmercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 116
JBL M1158A, cab doesn't exist. This is the model....

MKTheater asked me what I could do 80-400Hz wise with a certain JBL driver he was going to use...it took me a little time to get the directivity functions in hornresp worked out...but I think this is a good model. 216 liters, 1.69:1 compression ratio, single segment, front loaded conical horn (not offset driver like my basshorns).

It would probably have to be a W-Bin for the size requirements MK needs...


JSS
maxmercy is offline  
post #108 of 1381 Old 02-16-2010, 11:51 AM
Advanced Member
 
WiSounds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 921
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Its just so nice and flat through that range, you have piqued my interest.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

WiSounds is offline  
post #109 of 1381 Old 02-16-2010, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 394
Max, it looks great, I hope this is not that hard to build but I will build it. All my speakers components come in this week so I will be itching to get started. I need every detail I can take. BTW, what wattage was used to get that response?
MKtheater is online now  
post #110 of 1381 Old 02-16-2010, 07:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
maxmercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 116
67 Watts....pretty nice, huh?

OK, I need some design help....

Questions: Does hornresp model directivity based on a square horn mouth, or a circular one? How can I find out how directivity is changed by varying the angles between two paris of parallel horn walls (in a rectangular horn), still keeping the conical flare?

Once these questions are answered, I can proceed to folding, but you have to give me some time...busy week this week and next (except today and yesterday), so this will have to wait...

JSS
maxmercy is offline  
post #111 of 1381 Old 02-16-2010, 07:21 PM
Advanced Member
 
WiSounds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 921
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I'll proto one as a kickbin...

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

WiSounds is offline  
post #112 of 1381 Old 02-17-2010, 11:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
maxmercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 116
This is the plan:



The first section of the horn, which will point 'backwards' will expand quickly in the vertical aspect, followed by the horizontal expansion and fold-around to the front of the cab, like the LaScala.

Here's what the Akabak manual says about them:

"This class of horn shapes includes all horns whose cross-sectional shape changes suddenly, without departing
from the horn function to be described....conical, as is drawn, for
example, in Fig. 105......The slit has a diffracting effect. The narrower the slit, the broader the radiation characteristics can be made. The
directivity is formed by the following horn bell. At very high frequencies the directivity is similar to a rectangular
surface with width Ws= and height Hs=."


JSS
LL
maxmercy is offline  
post #113 of 1381 Old 02-17-2010, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 394
Looks great Max and thanks for doing this. I will use your design so it will not go to waste. I bet with the JBL driver this will be a midbass monster. The shipper is coming tonight to pick up my Speakers for the new owner. Guess what, I was told I have a massive box on the front porch so it looks like I have either the 3 15's or the 3 HF waveguides with compression drivers and crossovers. Once I get my older speakers out I will get out all the waveguides and drivers and take some pics, many pics.

If anyone is interested in getting these drivers and such at my cost let me know. First let me see how they come out. I just received my new 400 watt per channel Ada amp and my 3622N's sound fanatstic with them. The Ada has the power of the behringers I used but they seem to be more in your face now, in a good way where it scares the crap out of you. The Behringers went loud but something was missing(not detail). The parasound I had just could not get dynamic enough. I really believe the twin 15's are harder to drive than the specs indicate because the Ada seems to wake them up much better. It could be the Ada matches better with my Ada processor(voltage thing). Anyways, I am very excited. Maxmercy thanks again. I bet I will need help building these things. How big are these anyways?
MKtheater is online now  
post #114 of 1381 Old 02-17-2010, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 394
BTW Max, with that frequency response I could run just my HF waveguide and compression driver and cross them over to the Bass bin. The HF can go down to 630hz. If you guys saw the size of my MF sections you would want to use them. They are the reason why I am changing things. They are twice the size of the HF sections to run just an octave, crazy stuff.
MKtheater is online now  
post #115 of 1381 Old 02-17-2010, 04:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
maxmercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 116
Caveat: I have never designed a midbass horn before, and I am using tools/theories from folks I think are correct to do so....I cannot guarantee success...basshorns are dead easy to design, as there are no directivity issues...

MK,

Not sure on size yet...how much room do you have behind that screen? Will they be sitting on the floor, or on little risers? How wide can they be? Tall? They will not be small....a conical horn's main disadvantage is the size needed.....

The design will not be as economical as my folded basshorns...there will probably be some dead space in the cabs at various locations.

I'm not sure about directivity in the vertical direction; if you will mount them on little risers, I can make the tops and bottoms near parallel, as long as they are pointing at the audience. If they will be on the ground, I will have to add some angle to the top/bottom surfaces in order to get the sound up to the listener's heads....this only matters at the top end of the response. From 80-220 or so Hz, directivity is not much of a concern...

I would not cross them directly to the tweeters. You want a little more flat response beyond your crossover points, especially between 300 and 3000Hz (majority of human speech)....

Do you know the coverage angle of the mid horns at 400Hz? That info would help match the midbass units to the mid horns...

JSS
maxmercy is offline  
post #116 of 1381 Old 02-17-2010, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 394
I am not sure about the coverage angle. I will have to search that. I will do what is needed or make it easier. I can raise them buy my biggest limitation is my height and depth if I want to keep the same size screen. Right now I have maybe 24 inches in depth but I could stretch that to 30 inches(maybe). The width on the tops are 30 inches. My ceilings are low so the max height on the speaker is 76 inches, 72 inches would be safer. My HF and MF will take up 40 inches of height.
MKtheater is online now  
post #117 of 1381 Old 02-17-2010, 09:25 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 394
Here are some pics. My 15's arrived today and my old speakers are gone so now I am anxious.

The MF box



The MF driver box



The M115-8A box and then opening it.









All boxes with a MF waveguide



All the drivers so far minus the HF section and driver



Close ups





MKtheater is online now  
post #118 of 1381 Old 02-17-2010, 10:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
maxmercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 116
JEEEEEEEZZZZZZUUUUUSSSSS........

At some point, we are going to start questioning your sanity....

You will essentially have enough in your room to fill a 1000 seat theater!!!

Can your ears handle this?


Back onto topic, I'll see what I can do with 24"-30" depth, 30" width, and I'll play with height some when I get a chance...

I'll also make the horns have a little angle between top and bottom panels (if I can), so you can have them tilted back normally, or boost up the back ends and point them straight out...


JSS
maxmercy is offline  
post #119 of 1381 Old 02-17-2010, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,170
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 394
I want to be able to have that big MF sit on top of it.
MKtheater is online now  
post #120 of 1381 Old 02-17-2010, 10:44 PM
Advanced Member
 
WiSounds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 921
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Damn son!

When you get this built I have to stop over for a listening sesh.

 

Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice:
It's also the very sort of Voodoo Engineering that should never be done.

 

WiSounds is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off