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post #181 of 1381 Old 03-07-2010, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I wanted to put the dys-10's to the test and building other subs, one being the THT and the other a tapped horn using the eD driver. The THT is tuned to 22 hz but it seems it acts like a sealed sub below the horn. I wonder if someone could build a THT that goes to 10-15 hz for the tune? How big are we talking? I could go 76 x 36 x 36 max.
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post #182 of 1381 Old 03-07-2010, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

The THT is tuned to 22 hz but it seems it acts like a sealed sub below the horn. I wonder if someone could build a THT that goes to 10-15 hz for the tune? How big are we talking? I could go 76 x 36 x 36 max.

Below 22Hz, the THT should act like a high distortion sealed subwoofer. Even tho the driver will move air below the horn tune, the horn gain still applies to harmonics being produced. Best solution would be to run multiples. 4 should be a good start!
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post #183 of 1381 Old 03-07-2010, 07:23 PM
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well, if you want to sh_t yourself, why not build 4 th-50 diy's. that should launch you into the 140db region from about 20 hz up in a normal room and who knows how low in your super-duper-subharmonic-creating-theater-chamber. the only problems might be your big-arse jbl theater mains might not be able to keep up and i don't yet know where one can find plans for a th-50 diy. oh, and there is a small chance you may damage some of your hearing. what? what?!? ;-)

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post #184 of 1381 Old 03-07-2010, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I wanted to put the dys-10's to the test and building other subs, one being the THT and the other a tapped horn using the eD driver. The THT is tuned to 22 hz but it seems it acts like a sealed sub below the horn. I wonder if someone could build a THT that goes to 10-15 hz for the tune? How big are we talking? I could go 76 x 36 x 36 max.

The eD driver isn't good for a simple tapped horn, and one which it will do OK in is over 1300 liters in size....the cinema horns I have designed go lower than THT, but need multiples to go as loud as a single THT...with the 54 cu ft you have on hand, you can do 3 THTs....which will get you ~115dB sensitivity from ~24Hz on up with one watt into each cab. To get more output down low, you can design a 22-25Hz horn for a more capable driver (I've got a good design for the AV-15H that I haven't folded yet), and boost below the horn cutoff, praying the driver has ultra-low distortion, because as was pointed out above, the horn itself 'amplifies' harmonics for a fundamental below cutoff, by more than 10dB in some cases....you have to pray that room gain gives you back some of the sensitivity lost down below the horn cutoff....some rooms can, others can't....

To get the sensitivity of THT further down in frequency involves lots of space for a front loaded horn....tapped horns can be a little smaller, but require more careful design and folding them is many times harder than folding a front-loaded horn....

Basically, since you are limited in space, you have to choose between loud and low if horns are gonna be the order of the day......THT or similar will give you loud, a lower tuned horn will give you low, but will never be as loud as THT (or another horn that begins to drop ~25Hz) as it would require more space than you have on hand....

You would need TWO large 15Hz horns to equal what ONE THT can do from ~25Hz on up...and I already designed them....the slightly smaller CinemaBassHorns....one has 18"x36"x68" dims....two of which would fit your space just right....and give you just over 105dB from 15Hz on up with one watt into each.....but you would be plagued by the fact that the horn mouths would be adjacent, and you wouldn't get much room mode cancellation....

Consider that the DTS-10s you currently have are already great for you....

I'm just waiting for some feedback to finish drawing up your midbass bins....

JSS
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post #185 of 1381 Old 03-07-2010, 11:25 PM
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post 184 is correct, so +1, by conventional standards.

i still think you would like 4 diy th-50 noted in post 183. i'm sure somebody could cook up plans if you were interesed. however it turns out, best of luck...signing off now.

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post #186 of 1381 Old 03-08-2010, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't want more spl than what dual DTS-10's give me now(over 130 db's). I was just wondering if we can build something close to it or if the THT's would go as low or more importantly if one would notice the difference.

Vinculum,
I always use multiples of whatever I build.

The dimensions I posted are for a front corner but I could build 2 more behind my screen with the same dimensions. So I could build 4 enclosures with the dimensions of 76(height) x 36(width) x 36(depth) although if I could keep the depth narrower it would be better.
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post #187 of 1381 Old 03-08-2010, 06:24 PM
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Here's 8 of the CinemaHorns I mentioned above, 6mm from Xmax (they will fit in the space you describe above):



Comapred to 8 THT (you can actually fit 16 of them in the space you describe above), also 6mm from Xmax:



8 THT can provide sound for large cinema venues...

With 4 spaces in your HT of 36"x36"x72", you can do A LOT....even lower tuned horns than this...

JSS
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post #188 of 1381 Old 03-08-2010, 06:32 PM
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Even better, the horn I think gets the most out of the AV-15H driver.

4 of them will fit with space to spare, here's the chart, 7mm away from Xmax:



Good extension, good output, lots of Xmax left over, and best of all a great compression ratio compared to the CinemaHorn in the previous post. I would have to re-fold to better fit your space...but it can be done...

JSS
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post #189 of 1381 Old 03-08-2010, 06:39 PM
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angled at 90 degrees with a triangle plate on top could increase the effective length/size of the horns. has that been considered?

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post #190 of 1381 Old 03-08-2010, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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These look great.
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post #191 of 1381 Old 03-09-2010, 07:11 AM
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Maxmercy,

Are those 0.5pi sims?
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post #192 of 1381 Old 03-09-2010, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Even better, the horn I think gets the most out of the AV-15H driver.

4 of them will fit with space to spare, here's the chart, 7mm away from Xmax:



Good extension, good output, lots of Xmax left over, and best of all a great compression ratio compared to the CinemaHorn in the previous post. I would have to re-fold to better fit your space...but it can be done...

JSS

How much would it cost to build 1 of these? I already have 4 binding posts with wire. I would need screws, glue, and wood. Oh, and the drivers. I can sell my eD drivers to make up some of the cost. Man, this one looks like it could replace even my LF sections on my speakers. I could build 5 of them with 3 being the low frequency section and 2 of them dedicated to the LFE and I could run my mains on large. I could sell my JBL drivers as well. What do you think about this idea? If it works out and sounds great I could even sell the DTS-10's(only if they are good enough since the dts-10's kick some major butt).

My new processor has crossovers, filters, and EQ for every individual channel so I don't even need the dcx-2496.
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post #193 of 1381 Old 03-09-2010, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Even better, the horn I think gets the most out of the AV-15H driver.

4 of them will fit with space to spare, here's the chart, 7mm away from Xmax:



Good extension, good output, lots of Xmax left over, and best of all a great compression ratio compared to the CinemaHorn in the previous post. I would have to re-fold to better fit your space...but it can be done...

JSS

Hmmm... dimensions?

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post #194 of 1381 Old 03-09-2010, 05:02 PM
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Big. 28"x30"x80". You could put them in as corner 'pillars'.....

A caveat: The graph is assuming the horn mouths are adjacent, and corner loaded. The degree to which the graph will be correct is where the frequency below the distance between the horn mouths is greater than 1/4 wavelength. This is just like any other sub. To mutually couple, they must be a certain distance apart for a certain frequency.

The graphs do not take into account room gain. Room gain turns the 25Hz dropoff of a THT into an ~20Hz dropoff in most people's measurements... I am hoping the dropoff of these at 14Hz will turn into a dropoff at 10Hz....but the only way to know is build one. I cannot build one for some time, or I would. My proof of concept horn has a single 6.5" driver and can play at 100dB at 30Hz from 4 meters away at 5% THD, corner loaded, with a continuous 30Hz sine tone. How many 6.5" subs can do this? Above 32Hz, I could get even more clean output. It was a 30Hz horn by design. The real horn agreed with hornresp very well, so I am no longer afraid to design bass horns for people, as long as the driver parameters are known to be correct.

Midbass horns I am still working on. As long as I get some good feedback in the next few days, I should have a design for MK by the end of this weekend.

JSS
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post #195 of 1381 Old 03-09-2010, 05:43 PM
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"Midbass horns I am still working on."

lol. i'd like to see you beat danley th-50 or if you are going very high th-115's. i posit these are good designs, so it's not a question of "better or worse", but one of which frequency response is most appropriate.

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post #196 of 1381 Old 03-09-2010, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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LTD02,
Maxmercy is not reinventing the wheel but trying to help us DIYER's come up with tapped horn solutions that can come close to the DTS-10 for much cheaper. The dts-10 will triple in price in a month so many will not experience this great sub. Why not try? The midbass horn he speaks of if specifically for my 15 inch JBL drivers in a specific size constraint. The problem with trying to DIY Danley products is that they have custom drivers, we could replicate the enclosure but then what do we do about the driver?
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post #197 of 1381 Old 03-09-2010, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

How much would it cost to build 1 of these? I already have 4 binding posts with wire. I would need screws, glue, and wood. Oh, and the drivers. I can sell my eD drivers to make up some of the cost. Man, this one looks like it could replace even my LF sections on my speakers. I could build 5 of them with 3 being the low frequency section and 2 of them dedicated to the LFE and I could run my mains on large. I could sell my JBL drivers as well. What do you think about this idea? If it works out and sounds great I could even sell the DTS-10's(only if they are good enough since the dts-10's kick some major butt).

My new processor has crossovers, filters, and EQ for every individual channel so I don't even need the dcx-2496.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Midbass horns I am still working on."

lol. i'd like to see you beat danley th-50 or if you are going very high th-115's. i posit these are good designs, so it's not a question of "better or worse", but one of which frequency response is most appropriate.

MK,

Not sure on cost, I haven't figured how many sheets of wood it would take....my guess? $500-550 sans finish for one of them. The driver is the majority of the cost. I am working on designs for the CSS SDX-15, but I haven't ironed out the details yet....I stumbled upon the AV-15H, and it works so well in the types of basshorns I like to design (front-loaded, sealed rear chamber, straight-to-conical flare). I think it would be inefficient to use one of these for a 'main' speaker....I wouldn't use them above 150Hz, and hopefully not above 80-100Hz.

LTD02,

The Danley TH50 and the TH115 are way out of my league. I have never said I am 'competing' in any way, shape, or form with Danley, as I would lose, and lose huge...it is no contest. His designs are far beyond the simple stuff I am doing; they are very well thought out and executed, and give the most bass for the space occupied. In order to make as much sound, I trade space for an easier to model, fold and build design.....as MK has pointed out, Danley designs are not cheap. I just put forward that if you have limited funds, you can come close to Danley performance, but you must trade something....that something is the immense volume these cabs would take up.....

I am still working on a midbass horn for MK....I am discussing the folding geometry and specifically how to handle the 90 deg folds as the horn is expected to go all the way to 400Hz....with basshorns, I can assume omnidirectionality and the wavelengths make it easy to ignore corner reflectors and the like, unless needed for structural stability.....not so with the higher freqs....

LTD, I know you know how to use hornresp just as well as I can....what do you have brewing, horn or otherwise?


JSS
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post #198 of 1381 Old 03-09-2010, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Maxmercy,

Are those 0.5pi sims?

Yup, 0.5 pi... I figure people will use them this way....if you are going to build a 40-50 cu ft box, you had better have a place to put it before you build it....like an attic/basement/adjacent room, or built into the room as a soffit or a column....If you want any of the hornresp records for my designs, lemme know. Most are already attached in the Cinema BassHorn thread...

JSS
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post #199 of 1381 Old 03-09-2010, 06:55 PM
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hey guys, i wasn't suggesting giving it a go!

i was just trying to submit that once you get a good design, such as th-50 or th-115, there is little performance left on the table. heck, even the bfm tht is a pretty good design that leaves little on the table. i'm just saying that it won't be easy to "beat" these guys and that one should think more in terms of approriately specificying a sub vs. thinking of in terms of winners/losers given how close to optimal we are getting. cool?

"LTD, I know you know how to use hornresp just as well as I can....what do you have brewing, horn or otherwise?"

i still don't have all the tricks...i still learn from your posts! that said, i think i'd be fine with some diy th-50's. if you were going for some diy th-50's, which driver would you use (cost no option)?

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post #200 of 1381 Old 03-09-2010, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Here's 8 of the CinemaHorns I mentioned above, 6mm from Xmax (they will fit in the space you describe above):



Comapred to 8 THT (you can actually fit 16 of them in the space you describe above), also 6mm from Xmax:



8 THT can provide sound for large cinema venues...

With 4 spaces in your HT of 36"x36"x72", you can do A LOT....even lower tuned horns than this...

JSS

Would the AV15X work?


I would love to maybe build something with small MT( with waveguides ) on top. I have all the drivers already.

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post #201 of 1381 Old 03-10-2010, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

hey guys, i wasn't suggesting giving it a go!

i was just trying to submit that once you get a good design, such as th-50 or th-115, there is little performance left on the table. heck, even the bfm tht is a pretty good design that leaves little on the table. i'm just saying that it won't be easy to "beat" these guys and that one should think more in terms of approriately specificying a sub vs. thinking of in terms of winners/losers given how close to optimal we are getting. cool?

"LTD, I know you know how to use hornresp just as well as I can....what do you have brewing, horn or otherwise?"

i still don't have all the tricks...i still learn from your posts! that said, i think i'd be fine with some diy th-50's. if you were going for some diy th-50's, which driver would you use (cost no option)?


I remember you were the first person to steer me away from just designing around inexpensive Dayton drivers when you sent me a graph for a B&C driver....

Not sure what I would use to get TH50-like performance....I have never really tried.....maybe I'll take a look and see...45"x34"x25". Must have 97dB sensitivity at 23Hz....not too easy to do, and I am not a good tapped horn guy....I prefer to design front-loaded horns....


pennygray,

AV-15X models poorly in those two designs...It needs a different horn to perform well...

JSS
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post #202 of 1381 Old 03-10-2010, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is what I am now thinking(remember, just thinking). Build my LF sections as before but sell 1 Danley dts-10 and build 4 cinema bass horns using the last graph. I will also sell my 4 eD drivers. Do you guys think that the cinema bass horns will compete with a Danley?
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post #203 of 1381 Old 03-10-2010, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

pennygray,

AV-15X models poorly in those two designs...It needs a different horn to perform well...

JSS

Thanks and crap!! I should have bought the AV15H for more flexible usage.


btw, its penngray, Penny isnt me

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post #204 of 1381 Old 03-10-2010, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmercy View Post

Yup, 0.5 pi... I figure people will use them this way....if you are going to build a 40-50 cu ft box, you had better have a place to put it before you build it....like an attic/basement/adjacent room, or built into the room as a soffit or a column....If you want any of the hornresp records for my designs, lemme know. Most are already attached in the Cinema BassHorn thread...

JSS

Thanks...I'm working on something myself, but it's slow going. The AV15H does do well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

if you were going for some diy th-50's, which driver would you use (cost no option)?

The information is out there grab your shovel...

Quote:
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btw, its penngray, Penny isnt me

Awww Penny's such a cute name. Your gender bending late night alter ego?
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post #205 of 1381 Old 03-10-2010, 12:08 PM
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"LTD, I know you know how to use hornresp just as well as I can....what do you have brewing, horn or otherwise?"

something along the lines of a pair of diy th-50's, but in a simple two-fold form factor (so that maybe others could build them them too). i realize that they don't dig as deep as the dts-10, but i think they should be good enough for me. the only thing holding me back is job front related. :-(

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post #206 of 1381 Old 03-10-2010, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Here is what I am now thinking(remember, just thinking). Build my LF sections as before but sell 1 Danley dts-10 and build 4 cinema bass horns using the last graph. I will also sell my 4 eD drivers. Do you guys think that the cinema bass horns will compete with a Danley?

What do you hope to gain?

T6

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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19489740
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post #207 of 1381 Old 03-10-2010, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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More cap room for other things. I first have to finish my speakers and see how everything sounds with the equipment I just purchased(2 amps and new processor). The processor will make the DCX 2496 redundant for my needs so it is a plus. We will see. The Danley's are fantastic though. I am still impressed with them everytime I watch a new movie.
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post #208 of 1381 Old 03-10-2010, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

More cap room for other things. I first have to finish my speakers and see how everything sounds with the equipment I just purchased(2 amps and new processor). The processor will make the DCX 2496 redundant for my needs so it is a plus. We will see. The Danley's are fantastic though. I am still impressed with them everytime I watch a new movie.

Your new processor has crossovers in it? Or just Filtering capabilities?

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post #209 of 1381 Old 03-10-2010, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Crossovers I believe. I will let you know for sure when I get these speakers up and running to even use it.
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post #210 of 1381 Old 03-11-2010, 08:10 AM
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What new equipment did you get mktheater, you still have your ada gear.
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