Twin Towers BUILD LOG - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 615 Old 12-17-2010, 01:59 AM
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I am debating it, but I just can't see myself separating the twins. Besides, I wouldn't be able to run the kind of power I like, to one of them in a 15 cube enclosure, I could already see the results from that...



Uhh, where did the bass go?

Thanks for the heads up, I hope to get this amp sold quick so I can get started on my frankensubs!!

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post #452 of 615 Old 12-17-2010, 02:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Actually it's the reverse. With more airspace you become mechanically limited rather than power. Thats why i can play pure sine waves at tuning full excursion all day and they never get warm. When I put them in the 10 cubic foot box tuned to 35Hz I could DUMP power into them without getting past 2" excursion, but then they'd stink.
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post #453 of 615 Old 12-17-2010, 06:49 AM
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Is that also why they bottom out above tuning, or is that just because they are tuned so low?

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post #454 of 615 Old 12-17-2010, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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both, mostly the above tuning though. having a smaller enclosure makes it harder to bottom, but requires more power to get the same output, so Id still bottom plus cook coils. with that tuning you always get the peak excursion above it at the height of the impedance saddle curve and below tuning as well.
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post #455 of 615 Old 12-17-2010, 12:01 PM
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I haven't been monitoring your thread lately, but the fan slowing is voltage drop, ...it's what's making the reset trip on that outlet strip.

Voltage drop is (I)squared(R). When those amps are trying to put out those high power 15hz freqs, the current escalates and the voltage drop takes off and plunges exponentially as the square current.

Those sustained tones are torture, as the normal duty cycle w/normal viewing would be much, much more intermittent wrt how much and how often the big LFE demands come and go. so during those sustained periods, the fans don't have the voltage to spin adequately, then they ramp back up as soon as the current demands lessen and the voltage comes back to normal.

Good luck

You've explained your circuit situation to me, I know you realize you need another circuit,...it would be the best system tweak you could do right now.

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post #456 of 615 Old 12-17-2010, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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FOH, I agree with you as that makes total sense, but i wonder why they rev down even during small passages?
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post #457 of 615 Old 12-17-2010, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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the fans are reving higher from being "warmed up" from the first vid, though they are actually still cold to the touch. I switched to a 5Hz tone because it was hard to hear the fans over the sine waves. There wasn't much of a problem with fans at normal speed but once the fans are kicked up then you can clearly hear them bog down even with low output: volume only turned up until the input/output yellow lights just kick in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-c25AoHMVU



starting off cold with 60Hz sine. not much of an issue, but even at low level the fan reves down until the signal is gone then back to normal when removed. there doesnt seem to be much of a problem until the amps are "warmed up" though not warm to the touch at all, still actually cold to the touch. Once the fans are in higher RPM, in next vid, then you hear it bog down clearly even with low output. Next vid with 5Hz because with 60Hz its hard to hear the fan over the sine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNdH6cD_GbQ
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post #458 of 615 Old 12-17-2010, 04:06 PM
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I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing it's all about voltage, and voltage drop.

If you had the ability of taking a voltage reading, you'd likely see the line voltage drop significantly under load. Both amps on the same circuit, and perhaps even more correct? I've got an EP4000, but I haven't even used it yet so I'm not familiar with the fan characteristics. I wouldn't worry about overheating issues, because un-modded, they should be pretty robust thermally. They should be able to sit in the summer sun, and pump out LF all day long. Not tones, but music,...those steady state test tones you throw at it, have got to be brutally taxing.

Do the amps normally have two fan speeds?

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post #459 of 615 Old 12-17-2010, 04:19 PM
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I have the EP4000 and under normal running the fan runs at the normal speed. The longer you play music etc.. and the amp starts to get warm the fans will speed up slightly. If you play low bass tracks which is demanding on the amp, the fans will speed up more to try and bring the heat down. That video defo looks like a voltage issue which cannot sustain the power which is required to keep that amp running with the amount off voltage you are trying to draw.

If I play some bassotronics for a few minutes my fans are running much faster.

The fans are variable running fans.

cheers

Graham
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post #460 of 615 Old 12-17-2010, 04:28 PM
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Yes, it's no different than a resistor mod, well kinda different.

So there's 3 speeds (multi-speed) or variable speed?

They're just not getting enough voltage in the videos, neither are the amps. IMO, that rig would produce significant improvement properly powered,..I don't think it'd be subtle.

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post #461 of 615 Old 12-17-2010, 04:39 PM
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Agreed!
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post #462 of 615 Old 12-17-2010, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree as well, Ive known it was a problem since the 1st day I got the EPs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBmRwYGAGjs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zwutuLaT-M
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post #463 of 615 Old 12-20-2010, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
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post #464 of 615 Old 12-20-2010, 11:15 PM - Thread Starter
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post #465 of 615 Old 12-26-2010, 12:24 AM - Thread Starter
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It is UNMISTAKEABLE. In my alignment, 13Hz tune, I LOSE a ton of output at 8Hz when plugged, I lose a TON of output on The Incredible Hulk fight sceen, and at 5Hz I am the same both plugged and unplugged. I will NEVER go sealed again! Ever since Brian made his thread about his 8 IBed I have been losing sleep. I spent around $375 to build the towers in wood, caulk, and screws. I could have gotten more IB3s instead, I would have gotten 8 as well, 4 per EP4000.

First let me say my woman is amazing. I see "WAF" and think WTF is that? Get a new wife. She sat with me numerous times tonight listening to test tones plugged, unplugged, process repeat. Watching the same fight sceen over and over.

Second let me say it is very difficult to ignore the WIND. With the ports unplugged, no matter where you are in the listening room, you feel WIND. The closer you are to either port, it goes up exponentially... you simply can not concentrate souley on what you feel bouncing up and down when your skin suddenly gets COLD and your hair tickles. She was sleeping earlier tonight though Inception and her hair BLEW from 15 feet away, out of her hand, while she slept. I can do subsonic hair tricks in my house

Fan blades obviousely bounce much more unplugged as well, had to kill all the lights to keep from getting biased from watching movement. When the red/blue/black lights and Xmax tree are glowing, you see the fan assembly flop, fan blades look like wings on a bird, and those four giant 16.5" cones leaping from the towers... it definately adds to the effect.

Something to note, while watching Hulk sceens I can add +1dB to the sub level to match sealed excursion: I can watch at -2dB ported and -3dB sealed to get no kissing at all, -1dB ported and -2dB sealed I slightly kiss bottom plate. While comparing though, I left it at -3dB both ways. We ignored sound, ignored vibration and mid/upper bass, and simply focussed on the super ulra low flopping. It was unmistakeable in the difference.

On the 5Hz and 8Hz test tones, there was much more excursion sealed than ported, while ported was much louder with the same level setting.
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post #466 of 615 Old 12-26-2010, 04:25 AM
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Jordan,

I can't see any off those pics. Its saying upgrade to photobucket pro and exceeds bandwidth.

cheers

Graham
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post #467 of 615 Old 12-26-2010, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gperkins1973 View Post
Jordan,

I can't see any off those pics. Its saying upgrade to photobucket pro and exceeds bandwidth.

cheers

Graham
ya that happens when traffic goes up on my threads. I've already got my pics spread out on three different photobucket accounts which helps, but there must have been a lot of bored surfers for the holidays
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post #468 of 615 Old 12-26-2010, 10:03 AM
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Jordan,

I did the same tests with mine sealed and ported and even though the qtc with my subs sealed is at about 0.75 which could do with being a tad lower still can't match the levels off bass I get in all tunes. Sealed does still sound very good, its a different sound, a slightly more snappier sound but certainly not as deep which is why you need more sealed subs to achieve the same levels off sub 20hz bass when compared to ported.

My low tune has the same level off spl down to 7hz compared to sealed and much more at 13-20hz so it seems silly to go sealed. If I had 4 Q18's then I may consider it but I don't.

cheers

Graham
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post #469 of 615 Old 12-26-2010, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gperkins1973 View Post

Jordan,

My low tune has the same level off spl down to 7hz compared to sealed and much more at 13-20hz so it seems silly to go sealed. cheers

Graham

i completely concur

Quote:
Originally Posted by gperkins1973 View Post


If I had 4 Q18's then I may consider it but I don't.

why?
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post #470 of 615 Old 12-26-2010, 12:47 PM
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On my subs two ported Q18's have the most power between 10 and 20hz but below 10hz the 4 sealed Q18's gain alot more than the ported.

This is with a 70 cu ft ported tuned to 13hz with 2 drivers compared to a 120 cu ft sealed iwth 4 drivers. At 5hz the sealed has massive gains over the ported. 16db to be precise. You can lower the ported tune to 10hz to gain more at 5hz but you loose alot between 10 and 20hz.

cheers

Graham
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post #471 of 615 Old 12-26-2010, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gperkins1973 View Post

On my subs two ported Q18's have the most power between 10 and 20hz but below 10hz the 4 sealed Q18's gain alot more than the ported.

This is with a 70 cu ft ported tuned to 13hz with 2 drivers compared to a 120 cu ft sealed iwth 4 drivers. At 5hz the sealed has massive gains over the ported. 16db to be precise. You can lower the ported tune to 10hz to gain more at 5hz but you loose alot between 10 and 20hz.

cheers

Graham

I am baffled graham! Im gonna play some more.

I am confused about 70 cubes ported tuned to 13 with two drivers compared to a 120 cubic foot with four sealed....
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post #472 of 615 Old 12-27-2010, 01:10 AM
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Jordan,

Here's a pic to show what I mean.

yellow is 4 Q18's sealed in a 80 cu ft box with 2000 watts.

White is 2 Q18's ported tuned to 13hz in a 80 cu ft box with 1000 watts.

Green is 4 Q18's ported tuned to 13hz in a 80 cu ft box with 2000 watts.

The 4 Q18 sub needs to be in a 160 cu ft box really for a good alignment but I am comparing same box size with different amount off drivers.

You will see that the sealed sub starts to gain more than both the ported subs 8hz and under. The 4 ported had massive gains from there and onwards compared to sealed but we are really comparing 2 ported to 4 sealed to show you that the 4 sealed has massive gains 9hz and lower compared to the 2 Q18 ported sub.

To show how many more sealed subs you need compared to ported to get more spl down low.

cheers

Graham
LL
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post #473 of 615 Old 12-27-2010, 01:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Gotcha, and as tested tonight, I am much stronger at 8Hz on up ported and at 5Hz I am still stronger ported

10Hz complete difference

YouTube - 10Hz.AVI

8Hz definately more output unplugged

YouTube - 8hz.AVI

5Hz more output unplugged but not a huge difference

YouTube - 5Hz.AVI

Hulk definitely more FLOP unplugged :-D

YouTube - hulk repeated.AVI

--------------------------------------------------------------------

had to do it again with Brandy

10Hz makes the fan blades rotate, spin!

YouTube - 10Hz.AVI

8Hz

YouTube - 8Hz.AVI

5Hz

YouTube - 5Hz.AVI

"do it again" .... "I got it the first time I just think it sounds really cool"

YouTube - hulk.AVI

---------------------------------------------------------------

"the fan blades are still moving playing the recording of it"

YouTube - the fan blades are still moving playing the recording of it.AVI
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post #474 of 615 Old 12-27-2010, 02:04 AM
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Jordan,

Here's your current graph vs sealed. You will see that in theory the sealed should have more spl below 8hz but the ported has much much more above that.

The excursion with 4000 watts (2 x ep4000) exceeds at 28hz normal xmax.

Its a shame you can't run some REW graphs with your set up.

Your subs should be running at 118db at 10hz even with only 1000 watts going to each box and 128db at 15hz. That's huge!

cheers

Graham
LL
LL
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post #475 of 615 Old 12-27-2010, 02:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't think Im getting 4000 watts from the pair, my breaker wont allow that and my subs dont even get warm if I keep it low enough to avoid tripping it. What I do know is that plugged or unplugged, subsonics make everything move in a way not to be compared with anything sonic. What I also know is it is unmistakeable that I don't get anything either way below 5Hz, and that from 5Hz and above, I get more unplugged than plugged. I know we could plot and REW all day long, but when you are here, in it, part of it... even if REW and WinISD say 5Hz-8Hz say I have double the output, or if they say I have 10dB more plugged, I will not do it


What I really want to know is could a PAIR of DTS-10 Super Spuds beat me from 5Hz-15Hz?
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post #476 of 615 Old 12-31-2010, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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This platform grabs the ULF flop from the subs quite well, other than that this thing is totally unphased by four 18's and two 12" ports and people jumping up and down, back up, back down all day long day after day, but there's just one activity that always worries me so i finally had to do sumthin bout it





























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post #477 of 615 Old 01-06-2011, 02:15 AM - Thread Starter
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so we completely trashed the shelves... kinda fruity, very ugly... should have just done the blacklight paint, which looks OK in the dark, really awesome under he black light below, but really ugly in the light. Not even gonna tell ya about the red

can only take pics of the test spot underneith, up top on the shelves isnt bright enough to take pics

















pics of the door I had to caulk shut, extra bedroom that never gets used, door flopped BAD, tried everything, PL PRO fixed







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post #478 of 615 Old 01-06-2011, 07:09 AM
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You PL'd your door shut? Really? Why not just leave it open or stuff a piece of foam in there.
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post #479 of 615 Old 01-06-2011, 09:05 AM
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You made sure Grandma wasn't in that room before you sealed it up, right?
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post #480 of 615 Old 01-06-2011, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
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You made sure Grandma wasn't in that room before you sealed it up, right?

That sounds almost like some old horror movie poster slogan.
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