TC Sounds vs PB13U - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 03-06-2010, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Howdy all,

I've been kicking around sub possibilities for the living room for some time without coming to a conclusion. I was leaning towards another ED sub(I built their 12" kit sub for my small TV room) then I saw TC Sounds was back. I have read how exceptional their drivers are but have never seen nor heard one. So I turn to those more experienced and knowledge than myself for help.

The goal: Output and definition that exceed the SVS in a comparable sized package.

Limitations: I want to keep it roughly the size of the SVS, while realizing that moving to a larger driver will increase the size proportionally(looking at 15" drivers). The budget is ~$1500 including amplification, any more than that and I would just buy the Ultra unless the output or definition exceeds it by a huge margin.

Candidates: Audiopulse Axis, Soundsplinter RLs-15? LMS-Ultra 15(looking like it's outside the budget unless a sale)?

The room: 15x18x9 open to a similarly sized kitchen and dining area, 6x10x8 entry, and a large hallway to the rest of the house.

Any thoughts for a lost bass loving soul?
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post #2 of 16 Old 03-06-2010, 06:06 PM
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I have heard their lms ultra 18" and its a great driver. To me its probably the best all around driver there is. I can think of one that can edge it barely in pure spl and quite possibly extension, but because of the lower bl it requires a much larger box. And it requires a lot more amp.


I believe their old 3000 line (I think) can fit in a very small box and is quite a bit more affordable. Quality will be a good bit better than what will be offered from svs.
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post #3 of 16 Old 03-06-2010, 09:29 PM
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Hm....you should probably just get the PB13.
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post #4 of 16 Old 03-06-2010, 11:41 PM
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Get one of the AE Speakers AV15H kits I'm sure they will best the ultra.

http://www.aespeakers.com/news.php?start=0&news_id=22

The size of the box isn't that large with the passive radiators in place.

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post #5 of 16 Old 03-07-2010, 02:20 PM
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TC Sounds is great and I have 3 of there drivers but they are not exactly a low cost alternative. The LMS Ultra is only available in a 18" version now and like Brandonnash says is probably one of the best drivers available. They do have the new LMSR series and from what I have read they are basically like the old TC2000's with a smaller lms coil than the ultra. I did have a few TC2000's and did not like them as much as the TC3000.

Soundsplinter used to have there drivers made by TC Sounds but am not sure if that's still the case. There RLS 15" is said to be the LMS Ultra 15" equivalent but that is just what I heard hear on the forum.

I have never tried the SVS PB13 but did have a pair of the CS-Ultra's before I went DIY crazy. I know they make quality products and there customer service is excellent. You may want to check out the Epik Empire as well since for $1,500 you can get a pair and they have been getting some good buzz.

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post #6 of 16 Old 03-10-2010, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the input guys!

As for the AE package and the Epic I have been closely following both of those for some time but there seems to be a lack of hard numbers so far.

Also, I saw the 15" LMS listed on the audiopulse site, is that in error? Or am I going crazy again?

http://www.audiopulse.com/products/s...ers/lms-ultra/
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post #7 of 16 Old 03-10-2010, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper737 View Post

Thank you for the input guys!

As for the AE package and the Epic I have been closely following both of those for some time but there seems to be a lack of hard numbers so far.

Also, I saw the 15" LMS listed on the audiopulse site, is that in error? Or am I going crazy again?

http://www.audiopulse.com/products/s...ers/lms-ultra/

If you can find a used or new old stock LMS 15" then you would be set but audiopulse is now back as TC Sounds and they have dropped the LMS 15".

You can see the entire TC Sounds line here

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post #8 of 16 Old 03-10-2010, 08:27 PM
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The TC Sounds LMS-Ultra is IMO the finest subwoofer driver made. Long linear stroke,very good BL, high quality materials and can take massive power.

It is not cost effective as $1500 per driver is more expensive than many good complete subs and almost the price of a SVS Ultra. However I would never exchange my LMS-Ultra for any SVS Ultra. I prefer sealed subs and in this config the LMS-Ultra swings a bloody axe at the SVS Ultra driver(displacement not even close).

There are higher displacement drivers,RE XXX 18" has slightly more displacement but I would take the LMS-Ultra over a RE XXX any day for a smaller sealed box.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #9 of 16 Old 03-10-2010, 11:09 PM
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Hey EAR,

You know what I like about you, you are one balls out MoFo and I got some respect for how you immerse yourself into your hobby's.

I may not ever go after a wall of subs or 2 like you but I like your passion for it.

I know you had an absence from this for awhile but I am glad your back!

"Half the world is looking for Jesus, and the other half is looking for more bass..."
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post #10 of 16 Old 03-11-2010, 04:17 AM
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I can obviously see where you are going with the displacement comparison between the PB13U and the TC 5400, but where does the box come into play here? I read IlKKa's reviews and looked at the specs and it seemed as if the PB13U specs were almost identical to the 18" 5400 in a sealed box.

I admit that I am ignorant to most of this stuff, but I am trying to learn. All that being said, what is the real advantage to getting the 5400 in a sealed box over the PB13U for a home theater set-up? Thanks in advance.
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post #11 of 16 Old 03-11-2010, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrunr View Post

I can obviously see where you are going with the displacement comparison between the PB13U and the TC 5400, but where does the box come into play here? I read IlKKa's reviews and looked at the specs and it seemed as if the PB13U specs were almost identical to the 18" 5400 in a sealed box.

I admit that I am ignorant to most of this stuff, but I am trying to learn. All that being said, what is the real advantage to getting the 5400 in a sealed box over the PB13U for a home theater set-up? Thanks in advance.

Where did you see that? I.e., the 5400 being more or less equivalent to the PB13 in sealed? The 5400 18" sealed in a 100L cab is 98db at 12.5hz compared to 87 (every 3db is a doubling of power). Right across the range the 5400 18" is 2 to 3 times more powerful or more, in a 100L cab versus the 130 to 150L (maybe more?) cabinet for the PB13. 30 to 50L would probably give you an extra 2 db from 10 to 25hz (maybe less from 20 to 25hz) assuming the same driver and power (however, you'd have to ensure you aren't running into cone excusion with the larger box).

The PB13 in sealed is comparable to the TCSounds 2000 in a 90L cabinet (right below it on the CEA charts). The 2000 and the new LMS-R are likely somewhat comparable (with the new one likely having a bit less distortion so add a couple db to the figures the 2000 has I would guesstimate which would put it on par or slightly higher than the PB13, again, in a 90L box compared to a larger box). If the boxes were the same size, the TC2000 would have likely had a 1 to 2db advantage up to about 20 hz or so.

As for SQ between the two, who knows. The PB13 is a great sounding driver IMO and very comparable to the Fathom F113 in terms of SQ, having heard both on two occasions in the same room (once done blind). I'd say the edge in SQ went to the F113 for music, but it was very, very close.

I think Warp compared his old TC2000 to the F112 and mentioned the F112 sounded a tad better but the TC2000 beat it in terms of SPL? (putting words in his mouth!).

I'll let you know how dual AV15H's compare to the PB13 once I finally have mine done!

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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post #12 of 16 Old 03-11-2010, 10:47 AM
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Look at these here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...d-100l-lt.html

and

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...5-hz-tune.html

and

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...0-hz-tune.html


the whole thing is right here:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...y-read-me.html

Its crazy to me as I would think that the sealed 18 with 4K of power would destroy the PB13U, but I guess the ported box was done right... I dont know...
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post #13 of 16 Old 03-11-2010, 11:31 AM
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Consider that the PB13 ultra is about 33% larger and it's ported. Yes it is very well designed too which doesn't hurt. The PB13 driver was designed by a guy who used to work for...TC Sounds. Also consider that the 16 and 20hz bands are right in it's wheel house where the ports are doing the heavy lifting, so it has a big advantage on a sealed design there. The smaller 100l LMS does exceed it's clean output from the 31.5hz band on up through 80hz and beyond. Between 40 and 80hz (you know where 90% of the bass in music happens) it has around 5db more output which would almost equal 2 PB13's. Look at the 200l PR'd LMS it adds an average of 6db of output over the 100l sealed in the 16-31.5hz octave, so yes the ports are giving the PB13 a big hand in the 16-25hz area.
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post #14 of 16 Old 03-11-2010, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Its crazy to me as I would think that the sealed 18 with 4K of power would destroy the PB13U, but I guess the ported box was done right... I dont know...

PB13 is a well designed sub and worth its price tag!!

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post #15 of 16 Old 03-11-2010, 12:42 PM
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Sorry, thought you were comparing the output of the sealed PB13 vs the sealed 5400's.

Yes, the ported PB13 in 15hz and 20hz tune is an incredible performer. Makes me wonder why I'm going DIY several times!!

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #16 of 16 Old 03-13-2010, 08:01 PM
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lol i am still trying to decide what to do myself...
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