Dual Opposed AV15H Subwoofer Build - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 802 Old 05-10-2010, 04:24 PM
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I have been playing around with some similar equalization issues. One of these days I will post my experience and adventures (and some recent happy ending:-). I did notice the same erratic response between 100Hz to 250Hz from my mains. Audyssey did a much better job smoothing this range for my sub.

When I tried some "fake" room treatments (huge pillows in front or on top of rattan boxes in the corners) this range changed the most. Perhaps both of us need some room treatments.

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post #362 of 802 Old 05-10-2010, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

My mains are rated down to 40hz or so, but I wouldn't want to cross them lower than 80 to 100. Plus, the AV15's are supposed to have such great SQ up well beyond 200hz that many have recco'd crossing as high as possible, and it frees up more power for my fronts by using the subs I guess. Localization hasn't been an issue (given the subs sit under the mains).

According to the manual:

"With this setting, you can specify the cutoff frequency of the LFE channel’s low-pass filter (LPF), which can be used to filter out unwanted hum. The LPF only applies to sources that use the LFE channel."

Not sure if that impacts where I set it or if I can use a 150 x-over?

BTW, if I recall, I also did some sweeps with a 100hz and 120hz x-over and the responses above 80 will similarly erratic.

Yes, I'm stuck with the couch. WAF dictates that regardless of the smoothness of some graph the love seat is not moving.

Well then I definitely recommend treating the front and back wall with absorption, esp behind your head. That wall so close to your ears is a comb-filter nightmare. You can make your own absorbers, 2" thick should be good enough to get down into the 120s to 150s Hz-wise.

But first: since you have drivers in each sub enclosure a good distance from eachother and the front wall, crossing them over high can result in cancellation issues. Cross your subs at 80-100Hz, let the mains do their job from there. If you still have some serious suckouts (dips in freq response), Absorption is your friend. You can make absorbtive panels look pretty good if you try....think Rothko or other minimalist artists like Barrett Newman, look up 'Color Field' as a style of art....if you have permission, first reflection points are good for absorption as well.....

JSS
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post #363 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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As I mentioned, finished two of the front baffles and glued them on. Also did one of the grills today. Magnets aren't as strong as I would have liked (should have either gone with larger mags or went with two), but given the cabinet has zero vibration shouldn't be an issue I hope. VERY pleased with how they turned out now that I see a finished product (well, at least a single side finished thus far). Not bad for a first time subwoofer build, well, first time build of pretty much anything with wood that actually sits in the family room that is!





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post #364 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 07:52 AM
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wow. those looks great.
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post #365 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks!

 

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post #366 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay, just put in a 120hz tune (crossing my speakers at 120hz for now) and after ensuring the subs volume was 2 to 3db on avg less than the mains using the AVR's level check (as I understand this will level match to the mains?) I checked out phase.

Seems 0 degrees gives the lowest possible volume on a 120hz tune after inverting the mains. Any other setting just increases it.

Going to check with 150, 200 and 80 to see how/if that aspect differs at all.

Also double checked that the x-over in my DCX was off and it was.

 

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post #367 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Odd. Seems 90 degrees gives the lowest SPL on a 150hz x-over (and tune), and back to 0 degrees with a 200hz x-over (and tune). Swapping to reverse polarity simply increases the SPL.

What I find really odd is that it seems that only one of the phase adjustments work. I.e., works on one sub while adjusting for the second sub doesn't seem to do anything (turning on/off each sub by simply turning the gain all the way down while adjusting each).

I double checked, and I definitely have the amp hooked up in stereo mode and the DCX has two outputs into the amp (Outputs 1 and 2). Strange that there doesn't appear to be a difference/effect. Hmmmmm ....

Edit: Well, definitely hooked up right. I can adjust the gain of either side (Output 1 or 2 from input A) and both increase the SPL on my meter using the level check. Odd that phase doesn't seem to do anything on one of the subs?

 

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post #368 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I see the DCX also has a "Delay" option. Is this useful and/or how does one set this?

 

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post #369 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 08:38 AM
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those look really good, I wish my woodworking skills were a bit better.


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post #370 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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those look really good, I wish my woodworking skills were a bit better.

I didn't have much whatsoever as I mentioned earlier. Built a deck in my backyard with my father in-law but that was it (and he did the "Detailed" work, whatever that is on a deck!!).

Honestly, all I did was practice a lot on various pieces. And screw up (had to buy a 3rd sheet of ply due to my mishaps and may have to buy some more pieces for the other front baffles if I can't fix the holes well enough!). But the extra $80 for a piece of wood isn't going to kill me.

Key is to have enough tools, or access to them. A table saw would have been really nice, or if I spent more time figuring out the circle jig and router! But I made do!

 

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post #371 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Max, you're dead on regarding the couch btw. Moved the SPL meter up about 2/3 feet from the LP. Here is the response. Cleaner from 75 on up, though introduces a huge dip at 55hz and at 62 hz or so.

The couch isn't moving, and I'm unlikely to be putting in any absorption panels soon, so looks like I'll have to live with a messy curve!


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post #372 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 09:06 AM
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Max, you're dead on regarding the couch btw. Moved the SPL meter up about 2/3 feet from the LP. Here is the response. Cleaner from 75 on up, though introduces a huge dip at 55hz and at 62 hz or so.

The couch isn't moving, and I'm unlikely to be putting in any absorption panels soon, so looks like I'll have to live with a messy curve!


Lots of people would love to have that kind of curve from 10-40Hz.....

If SWMBO likes to sew or paint watercolor or airbrush, absorption is well within your grasp....just make the cloth the fiberglass will be wrapped in the 'canvas'....it seriously makes that much of a difference. Or alternatively, match the cloth to the room (or a complementary color) with some nice stained wood frames....if there is a will....

JSS
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post #373 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 09:07 AM
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I like how you left the top notched out for the grill. It looks very professional.

My Maelstrom 21" curved box build

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post #374 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 09:11 AM
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Your subs look great.

With the darker stain is the ply ends that noticeable?

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post #375 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Your subs look great.

With the darker stain is the ply ends that noticeable?

Here's a couple close ups, one with flash and one without.



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post #376 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Close up you can see the ply, but from a couple feet it just looks like the grain of the wood and varely noticeable with the darker stain.

 

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post #377 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay, ran Audyssey in the same position (4 times in the same position). Guess this is the best I'll get save room treatements. Not sure what the phase line is saying.



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post #378 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 10:17 AM
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graph looks great but how do they sound. a p1152 is coming my way, i was going to get a pb13 but opt for a p1152 w/ a ep4000 instead. i room and speaker set up config is simliar to your room.
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post #379 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is just another confirmation of the importance of room treatments ...



How did I do this you ask?

Pillows!!



Hmm ... can I swing a corner "Artsy" room treatment. Just the one corner takes care of quite a bit!
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post #380 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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I like how you left the top notched out for the grill. It looks very professional.

Thanks, really glad I stuck to my original design on that one.

 

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post #381 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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BTW, does anyone know what software Craigsub (and others) used to take the FR graphs of live scenes in movies? I.e., he used to post a 10 second clip and show the FR for various subs after level matching? Would love to run some of those.

 

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post #382 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay (sorry for all the posts!), just listened to the DTS DVD of the Eagles Hotel California which I have listened to quite well, with and without pillows.

Can't say there is much difference with the kick drums, but it seems like there is a hardly any reverberation (is that a word?) in the vocals with pillows than without. I.e., his voice seems "tighter", as odd or dumb as that sounds. Almost as if there is an every so minute "echo" without the pillows in his voice?

Guitar plucks also seem a tad more, well, plucky. Not sure if I'm imagining this though. Darn pillows!!

Otherwise sounds really really good overall even without the pillows. I can't hear any seperation between the mains and the subs. Very sweet.

Will have to at some point tweak/EQ my PB13 with the Ultra and try to compare. If anyone knows of what freeware I can use to take some graphs per my post above, that would be great!

 

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post #383 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Here is just another confirmation of the importance of room treatments ...

How did I do this you ask?

Pillows!!

Hmm ... can I swing a corner "Artsy" room treatment. Just the one corner takes care of quite a bit!

Very close to what I did Only I had more room behind my towers so I put rattan boxes together with my sofa pillow seats (not quite a permanent solution and I had to hide all evidence of my experimentation afterwards).

In your case, because the ceiling is not too high (mine is cathedral) you can put a nice corner trap from floor to ceiling. Possibly blend it with the stud I see in the picture.

I am curious though. Did you rerun Audyssey after your "treatments"? Without re-Audysseying my room curves were more uniform but lower between 120-250Hz (less gain). The curves in your room increased. The corner must cause strong cancellations.

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post #384 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Very close to what I did Only I had more room behind my towers so I put rattan boxes together with my sofa pillow seats (not quite a permanent solution and I had to hide all evidence of my experimentation afterwards).

In your case, because the ceiling is not too high (mine is cathedral) you can put a nice corner trap from floor to ceiling. Possibly blend it with the stud I see in the picture.

I am curious though. Did you rerun Audyssey after your "treatments"? Without re-Audysseying my room curves were more uniform but lower between 120-250Hz (less gain). The curves in your room increased. The corner must cause strong cancellations.

Nope, didn't bother rerunning Audyssey takes so darn long and I already know the pillows won't stay there and it's unlikely I'll get the okay to put up a room treatment there!

 

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post #385 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Interesting, my AVR keeps shorting itself now on very loud passages. Ran The Haunting at -5, receiver's protection kicked in where she's running away from the, well, whatever it is.

Have the AVR hooked up to a Panamax 5400, along with my 58" plasma, DCX, Oppo and cable box into a 15amp circuit.

Pro amp is on a dedicated 20 amp line.

 

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post #386 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 01:32 PM
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Okay, ran Audyssey in the same position (4 times in the same position). Guess this is the best I'll get save room treatements. Not sure what the phase line is saying.

I have always gotten MUCH better results with Audyssey if you follow the order of positions as shown in the owners manual. I believe it is like this:


4 5 6

2 1 3


1 being you main listening position.

I don't know off hand if that is the route to go but that is what I use. If you are going to measure in just one position then running it 4 times is probably a waste of time.

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post #387 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 01:44 PM
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For ideas:

http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_artpanel.html

That's only if you know your way around an airbrush, or can print onto fabric with a plotter/printer.

Sewing together dyed fabric (you can use undyed burlap or muslin as a foundation, and dye it any color with Rit dyes) can give you something like these easily (if you have access to a sewing machine)

http://www.allposters.com/gallery.as...rnett%2BNewman

You can fit acoustic panels into a room's decor...the important thing is to involve the person whose 'taste' determines the decor....you may be surprised where it goes when it is 'her idea' to put in some 'wall treatments'....

JSS
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post #388 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 01:58 PM
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I have always gotten MUCH better results with Audyssey if you follow the order of positions as shown in the owners manual. I believe it is like this:


4 5 6

2 1 3


1 being you main listening position.

I don't know off hand if that is the route to go but that is what I use. If you are going to measure in just one position then running it 4 times is probably a waste of time.

Although the Audyssey guide says as long as measurement 1 = your LP, then the order of the rest doesn't matter.

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post #389 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, that's how I typically do Audyssey. But decided just to run a few from the main LP.

Besides, as I think about, it, I really only care that the FR is flat right at the LP where I'm sitting. :P

 

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post #390 of 802 Old 05-11-2010, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Next fun test. Played the T: Salvation Gas Station Scene. "Ala" Bosso, placed a glass of water (haven't cracke open any wine yet :d) and placed it on a sub.

The freakin thing didn't move at all even at -3/-5, and simply can't push the volume any higher or my ears feel like their going to bleed.

Playing the Haunting now at -4 to see if my AVR shuts down again. Temp is up to 67 degrees on the friggin unit.

 

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