Dual Opposed AV15H Subwoofer Build - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 802 Old 07-18-2010, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

You could cut the cost by about $500 with a lesser amp, the wood costs a tad with MDF, and I guess use less expensive drivers. The CSX SDX-15" would have been $1k shipped, tax in IIRC, but they are not made anymore and when I was looking they would have been the last 4 apparently. But would have saved another $200 that way.

I had just heard so much good stuff about the SQ of the AV15Hs that I didn't want to cut corners and wonder "what if", so the AV15H's x 2 per sub it was, plus about 800 to 900 watts per driver (1000 watt PE IIRC).

do you think if i swapped out the stock driver from an MFW-15 for an AV15Hs it would work? i bottom my drivers out cause the amps (v1) have too much power for the cheap drivers put into the mfw15's. i have always been thinking about doing that. would it be worth my efford/money? right now i can only turn my gain up to around 11 o'clock, with the better driver i'm betting i could turn the gain up to 3 or 4
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post #452 of 802 Old 07-18-2010, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nith View Post

I didn't take Baltic Birch plywood because it is only 18mm, it is not a truly 3/4".

Are you saying your wood is better than my wood!

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #453 of 802 Old 07-18-2010, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

do you think if i swapped out the stock driver from an MFW-15 for an AV15Hs it would work? i bottom my drivers out cause the amps (v1) have too much power for the cheap drivers put into the mfw15's. i have always been thinking about doing that. would it be worth my efford/money? right now i can only turn my gain up to around 11 o'clock, with the better driver i'm betting i could turn the gain up to 3 or 4

Thought I recalled your alias, think you had your MFW's up for sale ages ago on Canuckaudiomart and I was curious about how they were performing.

Well, it sounds like the AV15H drivers are being used by Seaton and someone else in their MFW-15 mod (there's a thread for a $750 upgrade with amp and driver IIRC). But I think they had adjusted the T/S parameters of the AV15H somewhat, and of course they have used the Parts Express external 1000 watt amp and supposedly tweaked the parameters of the amp as well.

Hard to know how well it would work without understanding the capabilities of the amp and how the amp in the MFW has been tweaked for that particular driver.

Try modelling the MFW enclosure with the AV15H driver and whatever watt amp you have in that enclosure as a starting point.

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #454 of 802 Old 07-18-2010, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Are you saying your wood is better than my wood!

LOL, no. Thickness tolerance matters, right?
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post #455 of 802 Old 07-18-2010, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Thought I recalled your alias, think you had your MFW's up for sale ages ago on Canuckaudiomart and I was curious about how they were performing.

Well, it sounds like the AV15H drivers are being used by Seaton and someone else in their MFW-15 mod (there's a thread for a $750 upgrade with amp and driver IIRC). But I think they had adjusted the T/S parameters of the AV15H somewhat, and of course they have used the Parts Express external 1000 watt amp and supposedly tweaked the parameters of the amp as well.

Hard to know how well it would work without understanding the capabilities of the amp and how the amp in the MFW has been tweaked for that particular driver.

Try modelling the MFW enclosure with the AV15H driver and whatever watt amp you have in that enclosure as a starting point.

ya i sold one of my MFW-15's and it's still working perfectly. I still have my 2 Diamond Palisander Rosa though and they work great, but i'd of course like more punch. I have always said the drivers they used were cheap, and i know my amps put out more power than the drivers can handle hence the bottoming out if i turn up the gain. that's why i thought putting in a beefier driver might solve the issue
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post #456 of 802 Old 07-18-2010, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Try emailing John at AE and see what he says. You could also try calling Bob at Creativesound.ca to see how much the TC Sounds LMS-R 15" woofers are (check canuckaudiomart for his listings). Though when I was looking they were at least double the cost of the AV15's.

 

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post #457 of 802 Old 07-18-2010, 12:23 PM
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"do you think if i swapped out the stock driver from an MFW-15 for an AV15Hs it would work?"

should work just fine. a mid-low twenties tune with about 5 cubic feet models well. the only question is the amp. the av15's have a pretty low impedance and that can take its toll on some amps. the av15x will give you a little more spl from 30-40hz, but i'd take the av15h with its stronger motor any day of the week.

personally, i don't think the dayton driver has enough motor for a ported enclosure. others will disagree.

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post #458 of 802 Old 07-18-2010, 12:55 PM
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pbc, any post mortem on you build? things you might do differently/advice to others?

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post #459 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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LTD02 - will post some thoughts on my DIY when I get a chance. In the mean time, have pulled my front bookshelves off of their wall mounts and am patching up the wall as I'll be placing the S2's on top of the two subs as originally planned. My son is a huge fan of the Cars movie, and we literally watch it almost every day in bluray (he's 3.5 y/o, and can recite almost every line). It's a decent move for testing the SQ with some decent bass passages, and a great song at the end where the credits come up (second song in). Bass sounds great to my ears, literally am amazed at how cohesively the two subs seem to blend with the two bookshelves. Pretty much as if I have truly capable front/left speakers with extension well below 20hz. Much better cohesiveness than the single sub could provide.

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #460 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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So here are some pics of the final product (as I wait for my patching to dry so I can sand and touch up the front wall!), starting with the original Google Sketchup Design.




LL
LL
LL

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #461 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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... and with no grills ...





... a single pic of the second sub (terminal cup side)...


LL
LL
LL
LL

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #462 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Still deciding whether to put on the Paradigm feet or not, thinking I will and maybe use some threaded inserts.

Could they look better? Sure, if you get up close and personal you can see some imperfections, but I'd say overall they look pretty darn good.

Overall, still can't get over just how well they turned out for a first time build.

I think what I'm most disappointed with is the fan noise from the QSC amp, even after the fan modification. Will have to figure something out for that, or maybe move to plate amps at some point.

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #463 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 10:13 AM
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Those look amazing! What kind of stain is that?
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post #464 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

do you think if i swapped out the stock driver from an MFW-15 for an AV15Hs it would work?

There will be an upgrade kit for that in the near future. Not offered by myself, but someone is working on it.

john

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post #465 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

There will be an upgrade kit for that in the near future. Not offered by myself, but someone is working on it.

john

Think you meant to post this in Pure-Evil's DIY Questions thread?

Edit: Nevermind ... forgot that he posted that question up above as well!

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #466 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nith View Post

Those look amazing! What kind of stain is that?

See from this post onwards for a few ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post18467787

Heed the warning on the stain/dye labels though and wipe off any excess stain/dye after 10 minutes or so!! Would have saved me considerable time had I done that!!

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #467 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 11:42 AM
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Ha, Ha! You said you applied General Mills dark brown dye stain (coco puffs). You must have had cereal on the brain. General Finishes makes some great stuff.
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post #468 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 12:23 PM
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find some used fanless crown k2 amps. I have very good luck with one right now. NO FAN NOISE.
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post #469 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 01:17 PM
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find some used fanless crown k2 amps. I have very good luck with one right now. NO FAN NOISE.

+1

Used a K2 for a couple of years, good amp and no fan.

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post #470 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I only have space for 1 amp though, hence why I went with the QSC 5050 for the stereo power (1600 to 1800 watts per CH or something along those lines)..

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #471 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post

Ha, Ha! You said you applied General Mills dark brown dye stain (coco puffs). You must have had cereal on the brain. General Finishes makes some great stuff.

Ha! Ooops...

Will have to go edit that ...

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #472 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 01:28 PM
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pbc, yours is one of my favorite builds. if john j. were smart he would find somebody to produce flat packs for your design. that would be a damn hot item.

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post #473 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, thanks LTD. I ended up starting my build just before JEJ put out the info on his dual sealed box. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately as it's a gorgeous design) it's just too large for my family room anyhow, whereas my boxes while still large aren't over the top!

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #474 of 802 Old 07-24-2010, 09:12 PM
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you have a good design...it won't be long before others pick up on it. yours is quite similar to the seaton submersive...another dual opposed 15" design. i'd much rather have what you chose, hence my comment about flat packs from john j.

any regrets other than the time involved with a diy build and the stupid fan (surely this can be fixed)? just a few years ago, the kind of performance that you are achieving would have cost over $10k...

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post #475 of 802 Old 07-26-2010, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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The design was inspired by several subs, including most recently the Empire. But I still just can't fathom how the Empire can be as good as everyone says with the small stamped woofers (possibly nothing wrong with them I guess), relatively weak amp for dual woofers in a sealed enclosure, etc. Maybe he's pulled a rabbit out of the hat and has even more efficient woofers than we know of, but there has to be several design compromises at the price I would think.

Of course the Seaton Submersive, Dennis's dual Av15H sub (think it was Dennis).

Plus, I used to own a "ported" Mirage OM-200 (dual 8" woofers) which I really liked and was dying to own a Mirage BPS-400.

The SQ of my current sub is simply amazing. Was listening to Eagles Hell Freezes Over DTS demo yesterday (auditioning my Onkyo 876 for someone who bought it) and he was amazed at how clean my subs sounded. Kept saying how "boomy" his old 15" Velo sounded in comparison.

I would love to be able to test the low end of this puppy as I keep wondering whether it can keep up with the PB13, but it's so difficult to tell by ear and not sure my Galaxy CM-140 (or most SPL/Mics) is that useful for under 20hz...

 

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #476 of 802 Old 07-26-2010, 01:34 PM
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i think mr. seaton uses stamped drivers in his submerrsive, but i'm not sure. i'd be really interested to see some measurements on the back of the stamped vs. cast baskets. given their construction, it strikes me that stamped should be pretty solid. if basket strength were a limiting factor, we'd likely see forged baskets, but of course, we don't.

it also seems that lesser quality drivers can be used in sealed enclosures and produce satisfactory results. the stronger the drive, the better the sound, but the point of diminishing returns or other aspects such as inductance linearity begin to dominate past a point.

it is interesting to see that epik and even craigsub's venture tweakcity are both using drivers with stronger motors than what would maximize spl in the sub frequencies and then fixing that with eq. i.e. they are using more 'efficient' drives than they should be.

i must have missed john j.'s dual sealed cab. i'll have to check that out.

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post #477 of 802 Old 07-26-2010, 01:48 PM
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with respect, i think john j. missed the target on the p1500.

maybe another option, p1500s for "small" would be worth adding to the product lineup.

a dual opposed with 2.5 cubic feet internal that minimizes front area like the epik or depth like the submerrsive. i'd bet there is a larger market for minimizing front area like the epik.

shoot, it's too bad that john j. and chad can't work together. john j.'s drivers in chad's design would be a nice upgrade option for the empire.

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post #478 of 802 Old 07-26-2010, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

with respect, i think john j. missed the target on the p1500.

maybe another option, p1500s for "small" would be worth adding to the product lineup.

a dual opposed with 2.5 cubic feet internal that minimizes front area like the epik or depth like the submerrsive. i'd bet there is a larger market for minimizing front area like the epik.

shoot, it's too bad that john j. and chad can't work together. john j.'s drivers in chad's design would be a nice upgrade option for the empire.

Although I'm assuming John's box would be the "perfect" size for the stock dual AV15H in terms of cubic feet? If I recall, WinISD modeled a larger enclosure for the dual woofers vs what I had to use due to space constraints.

Edit: though maybe you're simply saying increase the depth and decrease the face ...

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

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J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

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post #479 of 802 Old 07-26-2010, 04:23 PM
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there is no perfect.

winisd models q=0.707 at 2.5 cubic feet for dual av15h drives.

john j.'s will give a little more spl from about 40hz down for a given amplifier power. it is a good design if space is not a limiting factor.

we are bucking up against the so-called 'iron law' here. all i was suggesting is that there would be many more buyers for the smaller sub, even if it lacked a couple of db among the deepest frequencies.

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post #480 of 802 Old 07-26-2010, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

all i was suggesting is that there would be many more buyers for the smaller sub, even if it lacked a couple of db among the deepest frequencies.

Agreed, I actually went 2" less deep than I originally wanted to after modelling it out and noticing a less than 2 db loss (think it may have been 1 db). Don't think I could have gone any less deep though, the drivers are fairly close as is, and IIRC Simon at the AE site recco'd around 3 to 4" of air space between the drivers.

 

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