Dual Opposed AV15H Subwoofer Build - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 802 Old 09-15-2010, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Grrr, why the heck isn't this working? The AVR is inputting into the A input on the DCX. The AV15H's are put into Output 1 and 2, and I have switched the input source to B so that nothing goes to them. Output 6 is connected to the XLR input on the PB13, and I have the input source selected as A. But nothing, nada, is going to the PB13!!

Kid comes home in an hour or less and I really wanted to have a listen to these to compare d**n it!!

 

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post #542 of 802 Old 09-15-2010, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Argh!! They're home early. Cr*p. No comparing now.

 

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post #543 of 802 Old 09-15-2010, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I give up! I've tried both XLR inputs on the SVS. Another output on the DCX (3 instead of 6), turned up the gain on both, and nothing.

On an interesting side note, after moving the second AV15H woofer on top of the PB13, my pre-EQ response graph was...




REW then recco'd 5 P-EQs, so I applied 3 (the other 2 were north of 90hz) and got this response:



I'm somewhat surprised at the low end response and the fact that I'm not using an Low shelf filter to get it?
LL
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post #544 of 802 Old 09-15-2010, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I've narrowed it down to the DCX. If I use a straight RCA to XLR cable from the AVR to the PB13, I'm fine. But when I try to go from the DCX to the PB13, I get no output. Hmmm..

In any event, I'm going to need the DCX to make any meaningful comparison as I'll need at least 3 PEQ's on the PB13 to get a decent response to match the dual AV15Hs which have smoothed out the null I have at around 60hz in my room.

Just for extreme boredom, here is the AV15H (single) and a PB13 in 15hz tune, not really level matched I believe ...



Don't know if anything can be gleaned from this other than to say without EQ the AV15H is pretty weak downlow (not surprising for a sealed box I guess).
LL

 

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post #545 of 802 Old 09-15-2010, 07:52 PM
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"Hey, young man... it's always nice to be referred to as useless and inflammatory"

no. no. i was only referring to your ***comment***...not to you. big difference.

jeez, after all this time, i'd never refer to you that way.

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post #546 of 802 Old 09-16-2010, 05:55 AM
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Double check that you don't have a hpf inadvertently engaged on the pb13 channel. Are the indicator lights showing level on that channel?


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post #547 of 802 Old 09-16-2010, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Double check that you don't have a hpf inadvertently engaged on the pb13 channel. Are the indicator lights showing level on that channel?

Will check tonight, I tried two separate channels and pretty sure I went through to check that all options were set to "off" as I wanted to run a sweep without any EQ's or HPs, etc. But I don't recall what the lights were doing...

 

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post #548 of 802 Old 09-16-2010, 09:20 AM
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Will check tonight, I tried two separate channels and pretty sure I went through to check that all options were set to "off" as I wanted to run a sweep without any EQ's or HPs, etc. But I don't recall what the lights were doing...

Stupid question: you sure the DCX outputs aren't muted? Seem to recall new DCX units showing up with everything muted. Red-lit buttons below the six channel level meters...
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post #549 of 802 Old 09-16-2010, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Stupid question: you sure the DCX outputs aren't muted? Seem to recall new DCX units showing up with everything muted. Red-lit buttons below the six channel level meters...

Well, you were right about my first dumb mistake (wiring one sub out of phase!), so my guess is you're right about this one as well! I'll have to check when I get home tonight. Would it show as "muted" on the main screen? All I recall looking at was making sure the gain was at "0" and not + or -, don't recall where it shows whether it is muted! Probably on the same darn screen with my luck!

 

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post #550 of 802 Old 09-16-2010, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Looking at that response graph for the PB13, I am wondering if it's going to be of much point to compare it to the other subs. I doubt that huge dip can be corrected by the DCX (unless it isn't a null). I guess I could try moving the PB13 around until I get a flat response, though taking it out of a corner would then give a boundary gain advantage to the AV15Hs. Though I guess that only comes into play when pushing the puppies to their limits, vs just SQ at moderate levels. Hmmm..

 

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post #551 of 802 Old 09-16-2010, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Stupid question: you sure the DCX outputs aren't muted? Seem to recall new DCX units showing up with everything muted. Red-lit buttons below the six channel level meters...

Stupid answer. Yes! Bingo once again.... wish I figured that simple thing out yesterday!

 

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post #552 of 802 Old 09-17-2010, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I know many people want me to compare the "Sound" of the PB13 to the AV15H dual subs I made. However, after tweaking with REW, my room has a big null which a single sub can't overcome, and it's in a pretty critical spot IMO.

This is the slight smoothed (1/6 octave) response of the duals vs the PB13.



Would there be any benefit of even bothering with this comparison? I.e., isn't that null essentially where a lot of the "chest slam" bass is contained?

I had to boost the SVS +6db at around 60db with a Q of 2.8 and cut 9.9db at 38hz with a Q of 9 to even get this. The uneq'd response was the green trace above.

Thoughts? Suggestions?
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post #553 of 802 Old 09-17-2010, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Tried to level match them a tad better (72 to 73 db each using the AVR's test tone) and brought down the 3.5db advantage around 30hz...


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post #554 of 802 Old 09-17-2010, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Curious why the PB13 has a peak around 90hz, guess that could simply be because it's below the AV15H and some funky room stuff going on there?

Subs are crossed at 100hz btw.

 

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post #555 of 802 Old 09-17-2010, 05:36 PM
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Hey PBC,

From 1st hand experience, I know how much work it can be to get things tweaked for a valid comparison of 2 systems. I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate this thread, your efforts and getting to read about the very fine system you've built.

That said, I would probably try moving the measurement mic to find a better response rather than the PB-13, which is a chore.

If that method works, just position yourself in the best mic positions for the listening test, make sure the levels are calibrated and have at it.

Just my thoughts...

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post #556 of 802 Old 09-17-2010, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Damn ... why didn't I think of that ... thanks Bosso.

I'm a bit of a measurement freak and not fully understanding what I'm seeing at times so learning on the fly sort of speak.

BTW, I ran a sweep with my mains on to see what it looks like. Here are the results at a 100hz xover (I think REW only goes up to 200hz which is unfortunate)..



Any suggests to fix up that 80 to 150hz or so? Does it look like my subs are calibrated way too hot (which is odd as they read 72/73 db via the AVR test tones vs 75db for the mains)? Currently using a borrowed Denon 3808...
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post #557 of 802 Old 09-17-2010, 06:00 PM
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Try reversing the phase on the subs or the mains, and re-measure. You could flip the mains or the subs, whatever is easier to do, but not both.

"You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
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post #558 of 802 Old 09-17-2010, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I think it was just an old Audyssey run. So I reran it, then moved the mic to the other side of the room, messed with the PEQ's a bit and ....



I think this is close enough.

But darn it, I think my son is home in minutes .... Argh once again!!
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post #559 of 802 Old 09-17-2010, 07:00 PM
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PBC,

REW goes way past 200HZ (I do not have it installed on a handy PC right now but I think it goes to 20Khz). That is just the your window is setup right now.

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post #560 of 802 Old 09-17-2010, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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When I increased the limits past 200hz the FR line stops at 200 regardless. So maybe there's a setting in there I need to change.

Unfortunately my 3 year old is now home and asleep, so no testing just yet. Plus I realized I goofed again on the EQ of the AV15H so need to redo it. I had two XLR ouputs going into each sub, and forgot that I needed to make the adjustments equal on both outputs 1 and 2. So now I have one sub with a low shelf, and 2 PEQ's and the second with no low shelf and 3 PEQs! Don't know why I didn't just set the amp to output the same signal to both subs!

BTW, the final adjustments for the PB13 are:

+6db at 61hz with a Q of 2.8
-6db at 40hz with a Q of 6.0
-3db at 34hz with a Q of 6.3

The gain is only about 1/4 of the way up.

Given the adjustments above, anyone think I'll be pushing the sub too much at close to reference levels or reference levels? I'm hoping not given I'm not using much gain.

 

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post #561 of 802 Old 09-18-2010, 12:45 AM
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bosso, any thoughts on how to make this a fair comparo?

as we know, ported and sealed are very different animals, but if we must, in the context compare such, how would you suggest an unbiased test be performed?

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post #562 of 802 Old 09-18-2010, 06:45 AM
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More evidence for 2 subs over 1.

Rew goes up past 20,000hz depending on the sample rate used. You just need to adjust your graph scale to show it.


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post #563 of 802 Old 09-18-2010, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Curious, is there a max number of EQ adjustments available in the DCX? I used to get up to 4 EQ's for Output 1 and 2. But for some reason this morning I can only see NR's 1 and 2 for Output 2 (i.e., when I turn the knob I can't go beyond 2), while Output 1 still shows 4 NRs available? I'm trying to keep the EQ's used to no more than 3, and typically want to apply the same EQ to both AV15Hs (which is what I was doing before, and had 4 available for each)?

 

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post #564 of 802 Old 09-18-2010, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, ended up recalibrating the AV15H's (went to a single cable in stereo vs 2 in parallel mode on the amp).

Went with a single Low shelf (at 29hz, +6db) and had to cut 11db at 40hz with a Q of 10.

On the PB13 in 15hz tune, small room compensation, 3 PEQs, 61hz + 6db Q2.8, 40hz - 6db Q of 10, 34hz -3db Q6.3.

Below is the ending graph...



Tried every phase setting there was, but couldn't reduce the 2 to 5 db advantage from 75hz to about 150hz that the PB13 had (I thought this was somewhat unusual, given the AV15Hs are touted for their ability to play really high)?
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post #565 of 802 Old 09-18-2010, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I also find it odd that it would appear the subs are 5 db hot vs the mains (given they register 72/73db on a C weighted Galazy CM140 vs 75db for the mains using the AVR's test tones).

I then plopped in 5 of my favorite scenes for bass and used the A-B function on the Oppo BD83 to play the same few seconds over and over. Pulse (played from just before she opens the door to a few seconds after she walks in). WOTW, from when Tom Cruise picks up the rock to where the crack in the pavement moves up to the building). FOTP, from approx. when the plane starts to break up for say 10 seconds (the most demanding part I found), the Gunshot scene in Open Range (literally, just where Costner pulls out his gun and blows away Kim Coates), and finally House of Flying Daggers where the princess reponds to the "third" bean thrown at the drums.

It's funny, because I went back and read the comments about "never having experienced this kind of bass before in my room". Well, it's possible I simply forgot how good the PB13 is.

With Pulse (listened to this at -4db to ref), played the scene some 5 times for each sub. It was next to impossible to tell the difference. At times I thought maybe I heard some port chuffing from the PB13, but then played it again and wasn't sure. Overall SQ? Really difficult to tell the difference.

WOTW - in this scene I pumped up the volume to -1 to reference. To me the PB13 seemed to have some more "feel/sound" to it. Again, SQ was very similar, but there were points in the scene where the PB13 felt a bit more visceral.

FOTP - Wow, both systems rocked this scene at -1, painfully to my ears. The AV15Hs seemed to add more "texture" to when the plane was turning hard, but this could be personal bias as it was that close.

Gunshot - The gun shot simply slammed my chest/head way more with the PB13. But I definitely noticed chuffing (and felt the air from 14 feet back of the sub!). Found that interesting, and wondered how much of it was due to the advantage above 70hz? Not sure where the gun shot scene resides.

Flying Daggers - again, the PB13 seemed to offer more output on this one. But the "sound" from the AV15H's with the drums was somewhat more pleasing to my ears.

I haven't listened to music yet.

I then replayed the scenes about three times each (same A-B few seconds each), and did the crude "what does my SPL meter register as max" test, and the "max" results were repeatable within 0.5 dbs.

AV15Hs vs PB13

Pulse
97.9 vs 98.4

WOTW
97 to 102.3 (wow!?)

FOTF
118.3 vs 117.8

Gunshot
105.3 vs 108.6

Daggers
102.5 vs 107.4 (wow again!).

Looking at the above, I'd have to say that down low the PB13 is outplaying the AV15Hs, and in some cases by a wide margin, and somewhat agreed with what I thought I was feeling/hearing with each scene before pulling out the SPL meter.

As for SQ, I'd give a slight edge to the AV15Hs, as I did hear some chuffing at near reference levels from the single PB13 but I'd imagine that advantage would disappear with dual PB13's. But honestly, I could go either way and rarely listen at reference levels so the chuffing would likely go away or reduce considerably.

I almost hated to post the above, because I really wanted the AV15Hs to demolish the PB13. It could simply be how I've setup the subs (maybe I've got something wrong), but the PB13 in terms of output was matching or GREATLY exceeding the DUAL AV15Hs (4 woofers, two boxes, 1700 watts or so per side) in most cases.

Of course, I couldn't calculate distortion at all, and maybe the PB13 was distorting more than the AV15Hs, but honestly, if it was, I didn't notice.

Wow. I'm somewhat disappointed! Not that I'm displeased with my subs, but I really really wanted them to shine more than they did. The PB13 is a monster of a sub, I always knew it, but didn't expect it to keep up to duals.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

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post #566 of 802 Old 09-18-2010, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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BTW, the other thing I noticed was that the PB13 was definitely "Working harder" than the dual opposed units. The driver looked like it was going crazy at times, whereas the drivers in the AV15Hs looked more composed for the most part except for the FOTW scene...

 

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post #567 of 802 Old 09-18-2010, 02:01 PM
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Tried every phase setting there was, but couldn't reduce the 2 to 5 db advantage from 75hz to about 150hz that the PB13 had (I thought this was somewhat unusual, given the AV15Hs are touted for their ability to play really high)?

This is likely the opposite effect of the wrongly-phased woofer problem, when the bad unit still had output. Because one woofer is significantly behind the other, much of its output has to get to the wall and come back toward the front woofer. Not an issue in the lower bass, but cancellation should ensue in the 100-200Hz region. Potential fixes if this is a problem: cross the subs lower, turn the boxes sideways, or delay the front woofers.
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post #568 of 802 Old 09-18-2010, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Unfortunately I can't turn the boxes sideways, I can try to cross the subs lower, but what do you mean by "delay the front woofers"? Do you mean simply adjust the delay for the subs in general using the AVR?

BTW, even when I had the two cables hooked up, with the DCX adjusting the phase only worked for one of the subs. I.e., I could see slight changes when I adjusted the Phase setting for Output 1, but zippo happened when I adjusted the Phase setting of Output 2. Always wondered by that was.

Another weird issue. After pulling out the additional cable, I went from being able to add 4 EQ filters in Output 1 to only having the ability to use 3?? So originally I had 4 per side, then it went to 4 for Output 1 and 2 for Output 2, and now that I've removed the cable from Output 2, I only have 3 available for Output 1. Really don't get that either!??

 

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post #569 of 802 Old 09-18-2010, 02:16 PM
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If you were comparing the 2 subs like you show in the pic then the PB13 will have an advantage over the AV15 sub. The proper way to make a comparison is to place both subs in the exact same position. I know this would be tough but you could use a furniture mover under each sub to move in and out of place.

Having the AV15 sub elevated on top of the PB13 makes it lose boundary reinforcement from the floor which the PB13 is taking advantage of. Placement of a sub is important in not only the location but the elevation as well.

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Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

If you were comparing the 2 subs like you show in the pic then the PB13 will have an advantage over the AV15 sub. The proper way to make a comparison is to place both subs in the exact same position. I know this would be tough but you could use a furniture mover under each sub to move in and out of place.

Having the AV15 sub elevated on top of the PB13 makes it lose boundary reinforcement from the floor which the PB13 is taking advantage of. Placement of a sub is important in not only the location but the elevation as well.

True, but I would have thought having dual AV15Hs would negate that boundary gain since it's really only the floor boundary that the AV15H is losing? I figured trying to move the subs in and out would have taken WAY too long and by the time I had done it I would have forgotten what the last sub sounded like!

 

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