Reed Exodus Anarchy 25hz Tapped Horn - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 829 Old 04-01-2010, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaeelarr View Post

Call me stupid, but how to get you get a driver that is a mid-woofer (Ex-anarchy)to behave like a subwoofer?

Magic.

You trick it into thinking it is a sub.

Seriously, with an xmax of over 12 mm, this little driver has considerably more linear excursion than a great many "subwoofers" out there. It also has a high BL, so it has a relatively powerful motor. What it lacks is displacement due to the smaller cone. So, I fixed that, I put it into a tapped horn.

With the right driver in a well-designed tapped horn, you can get bass response to approximately 1/2 of the driver's free-air resonance, but you might have to sacrifice cabinet size or SPL. The Anarchy has a free-air resonance of ~45 Hz. My measurements were -3 dB at ~22 Hz. The cabinet is still small, so I "sacrificed" SPL capacity to get there.

As it will still do over 100 dB as a sub, and it is a 6.5" driver that would be hard-pressed to do more than that in a "standard" cabinet, this is not a sacrifice in my eyes (85 dB @ 1 watt, 125 watt max = 106 dB theoretical max SPL).

It is not flat to DC and does not reproduce the tactile infrasonics with much authority, but it does a pretty good job of making the bass you can hear, and it does so in a relatively small cabinet for what it is.

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post #92 of 829 Old 04-01-2010, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

The Anarchy is not a mid-woofer.
For a 6.5" driver it has impressive X-max and its has the XBL2 tech stuff. (no?)

Although as you can see its performance is limited.

I was just going off of what the website lists it as...

"Exodus EX-Anarchy Midwoofer"

http://www.diycable.com/main/product...roducts_id=538

Either way, it is mighty impressive.
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post #93 of 829 Old 04-01-2010, 03:59 PM
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I canceled an order for an eD A2-300 because of reliability concerns and started poking around the DIY forums. I am glad I canceled. I have decided on trying this as my first build. WAF is critical and though my HT is in a largish room I am not looking to knock pictures off the walls. I just ordered the sub from DIY Cable and ordered one of the Foster plate amps from Jack Hidley. Thanks for posting all this and I will post pic's of my build. In the meantime, is anyone aware of any sort of walk through tutorial on modding the Foster amp to lower or get rid of the 29 Hz high pass filter? I saw the instructions in the xls file on Jack's site but am not currently that handy with electronics and schematics. But I am cheap and brave so I will attempt it at some point perhaps. If not I'll leave it for now as 30Hz is still way below what I am hitting with my LCR. Thanks to lilmike and radman12 for sharing their work!
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post #94 of 829 Old 04-01-2010, 04:15 PM
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I am not aware of any tutorials per se. It is not that involved once you find the resistors that need to be replaced and determine the values you need, you are only replacing a pair of resistors.

I guess I could take some pictures as I mod one of my Foster amps, but don't hold your breath waiting for me.....

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post #95 of 829 Old 04-01-2010, 04:22 PM
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I actually like that the hidley NHT amps have a SSF that high. It protects the driver automatically. 30 or 25Hz...no big deal

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post #96 of 829 Old 04-02-2010, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oblio9 View Post

Thanks for posting all this and I will post pic's of my build.

When you start your build thread oblio9, don't forget to put a link to it here so us lurkers can follow along. We like pictures.

Chris

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post #97 of 829 Old 04-03-2010, 08:35 AM
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I thought my ears were burning as my grandma used to say.

The Tapped horn patent application.

I don't know if that application will be granted or not, you never know what application will sail through and what one will be fought tooth and nail or even ultimately dropped.

Something totally new like the Servodrive woofer, actually took the classic trip to the USPO in Washington and my boss to demonstrate it on the guys desk, THEN he understood why, as other examiners ran in to see what was going on.

My approach to solving problems usually involve a different way of doing things, as such I was not aware of any prior art when I made the first few tapped horns.
After presenting a number of papers at AES in the 80's on several new transducers and the elimination of power compression, with no interest in publishing in spite of much interest at the presentations, I dropped my membership and focused on my own.

The idea of it I have described else where, an offshoot of considering the acoustical properties of the unity and synergy horns and developed about 6 years ago..

The purpose of the application was to give our new company some time where we were protected to use the invention.
Since the Tapped horns as we build and sell outperform the vented boxes, horns and Bandpass enclosures we sell against, this made some protection desirable and suggested it was in fact something new.
You don't punch a hole, even a small one in Hoffman's iron law that often.

Also, one of the things the patent office examines is the existence of prior art in the market place.
An argument can be made that IF any of the examples of prior art actually outperformed the other choices, then they would be ubiquitous now as the vented box, horn and BP are.
Rather, making a Tapped horn work properly requires a critical alignment of driver and acoustic parameters, a condition one would never find without computer modeling, but there is no doubt that they can significantly exceed what one can do otherwise and that result would suggest it really is something new.

Ultimately, it is what the examiner thinks that counts and so far there has been no adverse action.
Also, keep in mind a patent application is in legalese, not English.
It is a fascinating process to carefully describe an invention and then to see how that reads when converted to legalese.

I have generated a number of patents but have never seen any evidence that all it takes is money to get a patent. To apply for one, yes, but you can't buy an examiner, all you can do is argue if they disagree.
For these reasons, a patent is a crap shoot but if it's granted, you have some protection and the ability to seek damages from infringers if you can afford to pursue it.

This path (developing new / better things) is the only way I think our small company can compete with the large ones who can market much more effectively and generally have little real innovation.
Will this one be considered something new and different, like it's performance suggests or the same old thing, like how a bass reflex is a vented box, a front loaded horn is a band pass enclosure and many other over simplifications which miss the fine points?

The performance gain however in the Tapped horns we make, would have made this tuning as valuable back then as it is now, if it had genuinely been discovered.
Time will tell.
Best,
Tom Danley
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post #98 of 829 Old 04-03-2010, 09:01 AM
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t.d., i wish you the best, but the prior art on the pruden horn seems pretty clear to everybody to be what you call a tapped horn and that was 1962. perhaps the adjustability of his design was in part because his design pre-dated the widespread adoption of computer simulation. how is the hoffman law violated? sealed enclosure horns of about the same size seem to have about the same area under the frequency curve. as for the synergy horns, i haven't stumbled across any prior art there. maybe you will win that one. what's up with yorkville employing synergy horns?

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post #99 of 829 Old 04-03-2010, 09:53 AM
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Patent or no, if the idea is worth a whit in the marketplace, count on the big boys moving in on the action. Whether or not they invest in busting the patent upon challenge is merely a matter of how much of a whit it's worth on the bottom line....

.
....Crank up the SIGNAL ... cut back the noise....
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post #100 of 829 Old 04-03-2010, 10:13 AM
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good point z. behind most cinema screens, there isn't exactly a shortage of space, so 20 cubes of one or 20 cubes of another via multiples doesn't really matter. it comes down to price and performance. the 2242h is hard to beat, ported, $ for $ in such instances.

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post #101 of 829 Old 04-03-2010, 10:56 AM
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Hi guys

Zilchlab said “Patent or no, if the idea is worth a whit in the marketplace, count on the big boys moving in on the action. Whether or not they invest in busting the patent upon challenge is merely a matter of how much of a whit it's worth on the bottom line.... ”

From that standpoint we might be ok, the current system marketing strategy is to use designs which self cancel in the near field which requires many more drivers, boxes and amplifiers to do a given room. For the most part, only a couple examples of possible infringement exist (commercially) now.

LTD02 said” good point z. behind most cinema screens, there isn't exactly a shortage of space, so 20 cubes of one or 20 cubes of another via multiples doesn't really matter. it comes down to price and performance. the 2242h is hard to beat, ported, $ for $ in such instances.”

That is true, in fact it is the basis of side by side listening and cost comparisons that we get much of our sales, it is how we got specified into the first of these jobs below too.
Think about how hard would it be to be for a smaller company to be selected for these jobs in light of tradition and brand identity?
Hopefully the link from audioheritage will survive.


http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...t=26261&page=3
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post #102 of 829 Old 04-03-2010, 11:06 AM
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Haha nice. The Museum is very nice, great sound system there in the Omni. But man is the screen dirty!

Interesting to see your products 'in the flesh', TD.

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post #103 of 829 Old 04-03-2010, 11:08 AM
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It is nice when you can get paid for an idea or for moving an industry forward. The way the system works though is that it takes more than an idea to be able to cash in on innovation. You don't see many inventors getting rich.

Best of luck to you though Tom. I'm in the small company category and scratching out of living is about my highest aspiration.

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post #104 of 829 Old 04-03-2010, 11:19 AM
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"http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26261&page=3"

sometimes links get blown out for some unknown reason. in quotes, they can be copied. the sh-96 is crazy. most folks know that. i was referring to $ for $ subs (4645c) with 2242h drivers against something like the th-50. the jbl's cost around $1k. my understanding is the th-50 is a little more than 3x that, so a fair comparo would be 3+ of the jbl's against each th-50. both such configurations have about the same sensitivity (~97db 2.83v) and both have about the same max spl (~134db or so).

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post #105 of 829 Old 04-03-2010, 01:35 PM
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Hi Guys

Kevin said You don't see many inventors getting rich.
Ah, sad but true. On the other hand, aside from someone tossing a bag of cash at me from a speeding car or Brinks truck, this seemed like my best / only option of doing what I love..

Best of luck to you though Tom. I'm in the small company category and scratching out of living is about my highest aspiration.

Thanks and the same in return. It is in companies like yours where many innovations come from, not to mention sales based on giving a better cost / performance ratio.
Look at some of the very biggest to see how marketing can supercede performance.
Certainly many of Bill F's customers are aware what they build is often a vastly better bang for the buck at the only cost of some time, work and not having recognizable big letters. The Naked Emperor-ness of so many companies will get me off track on a rant if I don't stop. In any case, keep at it because if you can make it now, it will only get easier (pleeeeeese).

LTD02, I am not sure how much our stuff sells for let alone the JBL you mentioned so I can't comment on that. I probably ought to know, but I rarely get involved in sales.

Also, I wasn't aware our stuff had been auditioned for this use until after wards so I don't know what the reason exact was for it's selection.
I do know it had to do with auditioning the possible choices in a theater, listening to movie soundtracks.
They had an issue with the SH-50's they tried however, one wasn't wide enough in it's coverage width and while two array inaudibly, that was too much money for L,C and R. The system designer at that point asked us directly if we could do something about it.
The SH-96 was the solution I designed, a wider coverage box.
Thankfully it's development was straight forward, very rapid with no hiccups.
Best,
Tom
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post #106 of 829 Old 04-03-2010, 02:20 PM
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"LTD02, I am not sure how much our stuff sells for let alone the JBL you mentioned so I can’t comment on that. I probably ought to know, but I rarely get involved in sales."

given the weekend that it is, okay. in fairness, there may be something that is not captured in the sensitivity or max spl figures. many subjective reports are that your tapped horns sound better (cleaner?) than other designs. i haven't heard nor measured a th-50 vs. a triplet of 4645c's, so i'm shooting from the sideline.

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post #107 of 829 Old 04-04-2010, 12:47 AM - Thread Starter
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got more time in the woodshop today, finished the other 3 - Exodus Anarchy 25hz Tapped horns for a total of 4 in the bedroom. I am still working on placement. The two enclosures along side the nightstands will more than likely disappear under the bed for the deep tissue massage. I quickly plugged in everything and fired up ironman, and basically, I'm speechless. F-YEAH! is all I can say.

Laminate is on order, wilsonart madagascar. they will be beautiful and look like masterpieces after they are laminated.

back to demoing.....................





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post #108 of 829 Old 04-04-2010, 01:02 AM
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cool. what spl are you hitting with four?

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post #109 of 829 Old 04-04-2010, 01:10 AM - Thread Starter
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i will measure tomorrow, the girl is asleep now, so i cant crank it without getting barked at.
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Not to be rude but why invest so much into the audio portion if youre going to watch movies on like a 23" screen

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post #111 of 829 Old 04-04-2010, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radman12 View Post

got more time in the woodshop today, finished the other 3 - Exodus Anarchy 25hz Tapped horns for a total of 4 in the bedroom.

radman12,

How much has it run you so far to build those 4 units?
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post #112 of 829 Old 04-04-2010, 05:21 AM
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Wouldn't you get much more SPL if you were to turn the subs around and corner load them? Also why wouldn't you want to at least pair them up and couple them with each other?
They're going to turn out just beautiful when finished. Looking forward to seeing these completed.

That's a pretty big bottle of lotion next to the bed there!! :-)
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post #113 of 829 Old 04-04-2010, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

Not to be rude but why invest so much into the audio portion if youre going to watch movies on like a 23" screen


How do you know it's a 23" incher ? That center speaker can be 60 inches wide.

Mike


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post #114 of 829 Old 04-04-2010, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanaris View Post

How do you know it's a 23" incher ? That center speaker can be 60 inches wide.

Things appear smaller then they really are

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post #115 of 829 Old 04-04-2010, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omegaslast View Post

Not to be rude but why invest so much into the audio portion if youre going to watch movies on like a 23" screen

Wait for the rest of the story.....

That is not where the JTR's will permanently call home, Radman told me that it just seemed a waste to have them and not listen to them.

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post #116 of 829 Old 04-04-2010, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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i was waiting for someone to comment on the monstrous 24" screen. yes that is the next upgrade obviously, just trying to decpiher if i should buy new for bedroom or move the living room plasma in here and upgrade the living room.

Grand total:
Wood = 4x30= 120
Anarchy = 2x49= 100
Anarchy = 2x70=140
PL/brads/screws/terminals = 0

all said and done = 360

they are corner loaded as we speak, but for the picture I just placed them how they appear.

the lotion is not mine, thats the girls, you know how women are with that crap.
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post #117 of 829 Old 04-04-2010, 10:46 AM
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any chance that you could drag one outside for a measurement to compare against a hornresp model? second best would be a measurement with the mike at the mouth of one of the subs in the center of the room.

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post #118 of 829 Old 04-04-2010, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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yes the jtrs are just temp for the bedroom, i have some aperion speakers for the bedroom, you can see them sittin on the floor if you look closely. like lilmike said the real story is under construction in the basement sheetrock is taped and textured now, onto paint, and carpet, which will go real fast then onto the fun stuff...the audio for the room.....i built a false wall with plenty of room behind to park a semi and also wired the room for rears as well. lilmike is going to put his wizardry to work and produce something that causes uncontrollable bowel movements.

lilmike has all the measurements, they should be on one of the pages.
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post #119 of 829 Old 04-04-2010, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

any chance that you could drag one outside for a measurement to compare against a hornresp model? second best would be a measurement with the mike at the mouth of one of the subs in the center of the room.

Measurements/comparisons of the first of the four in this set here. Insubnia serial numbers 1-4 have been hereby granted.

They compare very well. Based on the results, I have wood cut for mine as well, but have a little project I need to move out of the way first.

One sounded good, I can only imagine what all four sound like.

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post #120 of 829 Old 04-04-2010, 01:23 PM
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thanks lilmike. i forgot that was posted. the actual is surprisingly in line with the model. awesome!

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