Official Rythmik Audio DIY Subwoofer Kit thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 384 Old 06-17-2015, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by johnrclark View Post
It appears there's a Rythmik DIY kit that provides for two 12-inch aluminum-cone drivers in one enclosure: on Rythmik's website, it's under the "Custom Installation > DS1200 Custom Install" tab. According to Rythmik, "With HX800XLR3 amplifier, one can drive two drivers with one single amp. It has two Hypex 400WRMS power amplifier modules in one heat sink so that each module independently drives one driver with servo control."

This would seem to circumvent the "no 8-ohm Al-cone 12" issue.

(PS--Sorry for lack of links... as a newbie, board software won't yet allow me to include 'em.)
Excellent! I had forgotten about that new Rythmik amp, made for exactly your desire of a dual woofer per enclosure sub. That will make a great sub!
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post #362 of 384 Old 06-18-2015, 06:38 AM
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I'm leaning towards putting two 12-inch Rythmik drivers in my old Velodyne ULD-15 enclosure, in a sealed push-push configuration.

Given that the ~ 2.5 cubic foot enclosure is about the right volume for a single 12-inch driver, I reckon that it is also about right (to first approximation) for 2 drivers in a push-push configuration. Each driver would "see" an enclosed volume of ~ 2.5 cubic feet, more-or-less independent of the other driver.

In other words, the Velo box should work as well with two 12-inch drivers, as with one.

Am I correct in this line of thinking?
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post #363 of 384 Old 06-18-2015, 06:55 AM
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As long as the 2.5 volume is the required volume for the Rythmik, any 2.5 cubic foot enclosure would work...
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post #364 of 384 Old 06-18-2015, 11:33 PM
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As long as the 2.5 volume is the required volume for the Rythmik, any 2.5 cubic foot enclosure would work...

The Rythmik aluminum-cone woofer is spec'd as needing a 2.0 cu.ft. box, so the OP will have a half a cu.ft. for added bracing, a very good idea. As for two woofers needing the same volume as one, that I don't know. But two opposing drivers can't be a bad thing (as Mark Seaton will tell you. Bill Fitzmaurice, on the other hand, disputes the claim of force-cancellation resulting from the dual-opposed woofer design).
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post #365 of 384 Old 07-01-2015, 07:15 AM
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Given that the ~ 2.5 cubic foot enclosure is about the right volume for a single 12-inch driver, I reckon that it is also about right (to first approximation) for 2 drivers in a push-push configuration. Each driver would "see" an enclosed volume of ~ 2.5 cubic feet, more-or-less independent of the other driver.

In other words, the Velo box should work as well with two 12-inch drivers, as with one.
Now I'm doubting my own logic.

Presumably, the optimal volume for a sealed box is proportional to the subwoofer driver area. Bigger driver area requires bigger box volume.

Two like-size drivers in the same box, driven in phase, should be essentially equivalent to a single driver of twice the area. I would expect this to be true no matter where in the box the two drivers are mounted: opposite sides, or same side.

Therefore, by this logic, a box optimally sized for one driver, would be much too small for two like drivers.

(Parenthetically, I note that Rythmik's F25 sub, which uses a pair of 15-inch drivers, appears to be of roughly twice the internal volume of a Rythmik single 15-inch driver sub.)

So now, in light of this, I plan to refit my Velo ULD-15 box with a single down-firing driver. Only question is whether to go with a 15-inch DS1501 or a 12-inch DS1200. The box's gross internal volume is 2.54 cubic feet, which falls right between what Rythmik recommends for the 15-inch driver (3 cubic feet) and the 12-inch (2 cubic feet). The 15-inch would be slightly under-boxed... the consequences of which I am unsure. The 12-inch would leave a bit of extra volume for bracing (of which the very stiff Velo box currently has none). I've always thought bigger is better, but in this case I'm not sure.

I listen mostly to music, with only the occasional movie, so accuracy is more important to me than house-thumping power.

Any recommendations about which driver to put in my Velo box?
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post #366 of 384 Old 07-02-2015, 02:57 AM
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I definitely know what I would do: Put in 1/2 cu.ft of bracing and a 12" woofer. The Rythmik F15 factory box is already undersized at 3 cu.ft.---4 cu.ft. is the optimum volume for the 15" woofer; anything smaller decreases the output of the sub, the only reason for going with a 15 over a 12. Plus, the cross-bracing (1" to1-1/2" dowels running from panel to panel, as many as you can fit in the enclosure to arrive at 1/2 cu.ft. Run them front-to-back, left-to-right, and top-to-bottom, four per wall if you can) with improve the sound QUALITY of the sub more than the marginally greater output of a 15" woofer over a 12 (especially in the undersized enclosure). Maybe Brian will chime in here.
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post #367 of 384 Old 07-02-2015, 03:27 AM
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Would this dual 12" sub be a servo sub? Are you able to have 2 subs acting in a servo set-up since the accelerometer is on the voice coil of the driver(s)?
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post #368 of 384 Old 07-02-2015, 10:11 AM
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I definitely know what I would do: Put in 1/2 cu.ft of bracing and a 12" woofer.
That's exactly what I intend to do.

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Maybe Brian will chime in here.
In a reply to an email, Brian did confirm that the 12" driver is the better choice for this enclosure.

Thanks for all the help!
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post #369 of 384 Old 07-02-2015, 11:41 AM
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Would this dual 12" sub be a servo sub? Are you able to have 2 subs acting in a servo set-up since the accelerometer is on the voice coil of the driver(s)?
In this particular case, the enclosure is too small for dual 12's (each needs it's own 2 cu.ft. of volume). But in principle, yes, you can use the Servo woofers in dual-opposed operation in a single cabinet.The Servo-Feedback operation of the Rythmik woofers does not preclude that---why would it? The accelerometer on the voice coil of each woofer is for that woofer only---it doesn't know or care what another woofer is doing.
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post #370 of 384 Old 07-02-2015, 11:53 AM
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That's exactly what I intend to do.



In a reply to an email, Brian did confirm that the 12" driver is the better choice for this enclosure.

Thanks for all the help!

Cut the braces just long enough that they fit between two opposing panels snugly. Then apply wood glue to the two ends of each brace, tapping them into place with a hammer or mallet. Let the glue dry (and the glue fumes to evaporate) for 24 hours, re-install the enclosure's internal stuffing, and enjoy your new sub! If you want, while you have the enclosure emptied out install panel-damping material to the interior side of each panel of the box (except the baffle, of course) before putting everything back in. Brian's partner at GR Research, Danny Richie, sells just such a product---NoRez, designed for that exact purpose, damping the MDF panels of speaker enclosures.
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post #371 of 384 Old 07-04-2015, 05:57 PM
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In this particular case, the enclosure is too small for dual 12's (each needs it's own 2 cu.ft. of volume). But in principle, yes, you can use the Servo woofers in dual-opposed operation in a single cabinet.The Servo-Feedback operation of the Rythmik woofers does not preclude that---why would it? The accelerometer on the voice coil of each woofer is for that woofer only---it doesn't know or care what another woofer is doing.
It is not the woofer doing the correction; the amp is. Since the amp itself is a specialized unit, the accelerometer on the voice coil is not the entire system. You can't use just any amp. The amp has a correction circuit. It is the amp that corrects the issue with a modified output signal. If each has its own amp then it makes sense. If one woofer has an issue that the amp/servo compensates for, how would it know which woofer is not doing what it should? The correction would then go to both voice coils. The same feedback circuit for both woofers doesn't make sense unless both woofers have the exact same error as each other.
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post #372 of 384 Old 07-04-2015, 11:14 PM
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It is not the woofer doing the correction; the amp is. Since the amp itself is a specialized unit, the accelerometer on the voice coil is not the entire system. You can't use just any amp. The amp has a correction circuit. It is the amp that corrects the issue with a modified output signal. If each has its own amp then it makes sense. If one woofer has an issue that the amp/servo compensates for, how would it know which woofer is not doing what it should? The correction would then go to both voice coils. The same feedback circuit for both woofers doesn't make sense unless both woofers have the exact same error as each other.

Right, but the servo-feedback correction being applied to the woofer's cone (or woofers cones, if it's a double-woofer enclosure) is in response to how that cone/s motion differs from the original signal sent it. Whether that cone is alone in an enclosure, or with a second in a double-woofer enclosure (either a standard two-woofer enclosure or a dual-opposed one, or even on an open baffle), is immaterial to the servo-feedback operation. Identical woofers together in a box don't know, and neither does the servo-amplifier, whether the two woofers are side-by-side, on opposite sides of the enclosure, or in a dual-opposed arrangement. At least, that's the way I understand it. Brian?


But for the sake of argument, let's assume the servo-feedback circuit does NOT like a dual-opposed woofer arrangement. The OP could still make a dual-opposed Rythmik sub by using the new dual-channel plate amp.

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post #373 of 384 Old 07-05-2015, 02:47 AM
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Right, but the servo-feedback correction being applied to the woofer's cone (or woofers cones, if it's a double-woofer enclosure) is in response to how that cone/s motion differs from the original signal sent it. Whether that cone is alone in an enclosure, or with a second in a double-woofer enclosure (either a standard two-woofer enclosure or a dual-opposed one, or even on an open baffle), is immaterial to the servo-feedback operation. Identical woofers together in a box don't know, and neither does the servo-amplifier, whether the two woofers are side-by-side, on opposite sides of the enclosure, or in a dual-opposed arrangement. At least, that's the way I understand it. Brian?


But for the sake of argument, let's assume the servo-feedback circuit does NOT like a dual-opposed woofer arrangement. The OP could still make a dual-opposed Rythmik sub by using the new dual-channel plate amp.
The amp can't send separate signals to the two drivers so the assumption is that both drivers have the same error and that I can't agree with.

A dual channel amp or two amps makes sense. One amp and two drivers does not.
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post #374 of 384 Old 07-05-2015, 09:15 AM
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What happens if its slightly bigger ? My sealed enclosure's external measurements is 19 x 19 x 21, 4.3 cu. ft

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I definitely know what I would do: Put in 1/2 cu.ft of bracing and a 12" woofer. The Rythmik F15 factory box is already undersized at 3 cu.ft.---4 cu.ft. is the optimum volume for the 15" woofer; anything smaller decreases the output of the sub.
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post #375 of 384 Old 07-06-2015, 02:42 AM
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The amp can't send separate signals to the two drivers so the assumption is that both drivers have the same error and that I can't agree with.

A dual channel amp or two amps makes sense. One amp and two drivers does not.

Rythmik owner and sub designer Brian Ding disagrees with you about that---Rythmik has already offered a dual-woofer sub with a single-channel amp---the original F25 (the current version has a dual-channel HX800, but previously had a single-channel amp----either the A370 or H600, I don't recall). And Rythmik currently offers a sub which uses the single-channel A370 plate amp with two of the 12" paper-cone woofers, an Open Baffle design. I own a pair of them.


But the larger point, the one that I've so far been unsuccessful in helping you understand, is that which the OP asked about---can the Rythmik servo-feedback sub be used in a dual-opposed arrangement? I assured him it could; two woofers can be side by side, or on opposite sides of an enclosure---what difference does it make? We've already established that a single channel Rythmik amp can power two woofers, but you continue to dispute this incontrovertible fact---Rythmik currently offers such a sub! The Rythmik Open Baffle sub mentioned above is not just a single-channel amp/two-woofer sub, but is also a dual-opposed sub of sorts. The two woofers face in opposite directions on a single baffle wired in opposite polarity, and are hooked up to a single channel amp, an A370.


The real concern with running a Rythmik dual opposed is in the nominal impedance of the two woofers used. Two of the 4ohm 15" Rythmik 1501/1505/1510 woofers presents too low an impedance to a single channel of a Rythmik plate amp, and for that reason Brian used an 8ohm version of the 1501 in the original D25. Anyone wishing to go dual-opposed using two 15" Rythmik woofers will need to contact Brian concerning the availability of the 8ohm version, or use the dual-channel HX800 amp with two of the 4ohm woofers. But there is the 12" paper-cone woofer, available in a 16ohm version for sealed cabinet implementation (there is also an 8ohm 12", but for use only in an OB or IB sub). The true impedance of that woofer is actually 12ohms, so either two or three (maximum) of them can be hooked up to a single-channel Rythmik amp. And yes, a single-channel Rythmik Servo-Feedback plate amp can be used in a dual-opposed (or even triple-opposed, for that matter!) arrangement with two (or even three) of the 16ohm 12" woofers, no problem. Again, as I stated above, just such a sub is listed (in the DIY section) on the Rythmik website. End of discussion, hopefully ;-).

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post #376 of 384 Old 07-06-2015, 02:55 AM
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What happens if its slightly bigger ? My sealed enclosure's external measurements is 19 x 19 x 21, 4.3 cu. ft
That internal volume is appropriate for the 15" woofer, which works in 3-4cu.ft. A 4cu.ft. enclosure will allow the 12" woofer, given enough power and set at high enough a level, to excede it's maximum travel, causing distortion. A 12" woofer should not be used in an enclosure possessing more than 2cu.ft. internal volume.
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post #377 of 384 Old 07-06-2015, 09:37 AM
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Rythmik owner and sub designer Brian Ding disagrees with you about that---Rythmik has already offered a dual-woofer sub with a single-channel amp---the original F25 (the current version has a dual-channel HX800, but previously had a single-channel amp----either the A370 or H600, I don't recall). And Rythmik currently offers a sub which uses the single-channel A370 plate amp with two of the 12" paper-cone woofers, an Open Baffle design. I own a pair of them.


But the larger point, the one that I've so far been unsuccessful in helping you understand, is that which the OP asked about---can the Rythmik servo-feedback sub be used in a dual-opposed arrangement? I assured him it could; two woofers can be side by side, or on opposite sides of an enclosure---what difference does it make? We've already established that a single channel Rythmik amp can power two woofers, but you continue to dispute this incontrovertible fact---Rythmik currently offers such a sub! The Rythmik Open Baffle sub mentioned above is not just a single-channel amp/two-woofer sub, but is also a dual-opposed sub of sorts. The two woofers face in opposite directions on a single baffle wired in opposite polarity, and are hooked up to a single channel amp, an A370.


The real concern with running a Rythmik dual opposed is in the nominal impedance of the two woofers used. Two of the 4ohm 15" Rythmik 1501/1505/1510 woofers presents too low an impedance to a single channel of a Rythmik plate amp, and for that reason Brian used an 8ohm version of the 1501 in the original D25. Anyone wishing to go dual-opposed using two 15" Rythmik woofers will need to contact Brian concerning the availability of the 8ohm version, or use the dual-channel HX800 amp with two of the 4ohm woofers. But there is the 12" paper-cone woofer, available in a 16ohm version for sealed cabinet implementation (there is also an 8ohm 12", but for use only in an OB or IB sub). The true impedance of that woofer is actually 12ohms, so either two or three (maximum) of them can be hooked up to a single-channel Rythmik amp. And yes, a single-channel Rythmik Servo-Feedback plate amp can be used in a dual-opposed (or even triple-opposed, for that matter!) arrangement with two (or even three) of the 16ohm 12" woofers, no problem. Again, as I stated above, just such a sub is listed (in the DIY section) on the Rythmik website. End of discussion, hopefully ;-).
No they don't disagree with me.

From the rythmik description page for thr F25:

"The standard amplifier of F25 is H800XLR3. It has two Hypex 400WRMS power amplifier modules in one heat sink so that each module independently drive one driver with servo control."

That sub uses 2 independent amp modules to each drive one 15" sub. You did not prove one amp drives two subs. I said a few posts back each sub needs its own channel.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F25.html

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post #378 of 384 Old 07-06-2015, 11:01 AM
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No they don't disagree with me.

From the rythmik description page for thr F25:

"The standard amplifier of F25 is H800XLR3. It has two Hypex 400WRMS power amplifier modules in one heat sink so that each module independently drive one driver with servo control."

That sub uses 2 independent amp modules to each drive one 15" sub. You did not prove one amp drives two subs. I said a few posts back each sub needs its own channel.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F25.html

Ay carumba! Well, I'll give it one more shot: Yes, the current F25 uses the dual-channel HX800 amp to power it's two woofers, but not because the servo-feedback circuitry in a single channel amp can't handle a pair itself. Did you skip over my sentence above explaining that? If you can't be bothered to go back up to read the explanation, I'll repeat it here: THE ORIGINAL F25 HAD A SINGLE-CHANNEL AMP, AND IT DROVE A PAIR OF 8ohm 15" WOOFERS! The reason the F25 now has a dual-channel amp is not because a single-channel amp can't drive a pair of woofers, but because the 8ohm 15" woofer has been discontinued, only a 4ohm version being available. And a pair of 4ohm woofers presents too low an impedance to the Rythmik amp, so a single-channel amp can't power two of the 4ohm 15" woofers. But's it's because of the impedance issue---it is NOT because the Servo-Feedback circuitry makes it impossible for a single channel amp to power a pair of woofers. If Brian has another batch of 8ohm 15" woofers made, two of them can be hooked up to any of the Rythmik single-channel amps, and be run regularly or dual-opposed. The OP's question actually concerned not just dual-woofer operation, but dual-opposed operation. I told him yes, a pair of Rythmik woofers could be run dual-opposed, you said they could not. You are mistaken, they can. I know this because Rythmik offers just such a sub, and I have two of them. I RUN MY PAIR OF RYTHMIK/GR 12" WOOFERS DUAL-OPPOSED ON A SINGLE-CHANNEL A370 AMP! A dual-woofer/single-channel amp sub on each side of my stereo music system.


Your final sentence above reads: "I said a few posts back each sub needs it's own channel". Actually, what you said is that each DRIVER needs it's own channel (because you for some reason think the Servo-Feedback circuitry cannot handle "correcting" two woofers/drivers on a single channel). I don't know where you got that impression, but such is obviously NOT the case. For God's sake, Rythmik offers a single-channel amp/dual-woofer sub, and I and others own it, as I have just told you for the second time. Did you go to the Rythmik website to look at it? I guess not, huh?

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post #379 of 384 Old 08-27-2015, 12:08 PM
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I would like to build one of these, but I don't have access to proper woodworking tools. Is there anywhere I can buy a pre-cut enclosure for the DS1200 kit?
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post #380 of 384 Old 08-28-2015, 12:15 AM
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Yes. The www.diysoundgroup site has a 2.0 cu.ft. MDF flat pack enclosure for a single 12" woofer. It's $72.50 plus shipping, and very easy to assemble and glue.
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post #381 of 384 Old 08-28-2015, 03:22 AM
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Partsexpress.com carries several pre-cut sub boxes but you do have to glue them together and finish them.
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post #382 of 384 Old 08-28-2015, 06:49 AM
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Thanks for the replies. I'm looking at this box: http://www.parts-express.com/denovo-...inet--300-7086

How would you modify the bracing to fit the Rythmik plate amplifier? It seems the internal bracing design would be compromised.
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post #383 of 384 Old 08-28-2015, 07:23 AM
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You will need to make the cut out for the amp and if any of the bracing is in the way just trim it to clear. But there is clearance for the amp made into the bracing.
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post #384 of 384 Old 08-29-2015, 07:59 PM
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Partsexpress.com carries several pre-cut sub boxes but you do have to glue them together and finish them.
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Thanks for the replies. I'm looking at this box: http://www.parts-express.com/denovo-...inet--300-7086

How would you modify the bracing to fit the Rythmik plate amplifier? It seems the internal bracing design would be compromised.

That flat pack Parts Express is selling is made for them by the guy who also sells it on the DIYSoundgroup site. They are exactly the same, except for the price. The middle brace just needs the one span that touches the back panel cut off, which will allow the plate amp the be installed. If you buy from the DIY site, I'm sure he will cut it off for you before he packs it up.
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