Coaxial Wars....Round Two! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 64 Old 03-29-2010, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, some of you might remember last years battle to develop a high efficiency yet high fidelity HT speaker system which erupted in Flames when the debate over Coaxial drivers entered the mix.

I kinda took my toys and went home as there wasn't a coaxial driver that peaked my interest in this area.......until now.....



Now it is pricey, but anything worth a damn usually is. I'll leave the rest up to the pack.......Flame on my friends!
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post #2 of 64 Old 03-29-2010, 08:59 PM
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cool...shoot the off axis measurements...

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post #3 of 64 Old 03-29-2010, 10:42 PM
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Search on diyaudio as there was a build using it last year with the Hypex plate amp with DSP xover.

What I really want to see are some measurements of the two small BMS units, the 8CN552 and the 5CN140.

Buy them (esp the 8") and measure them for me will you, there's a good chap.

Some of the little PHL 6" coaxes look good too, and I've heard 2 designs using the standard mid versions and they are outstanding. Zalytron have some on clearance if interested.

I'm waiting to get some time in the shop to test the PAudio BM8CX and 15CX38 as I already have 4 of each. Both are used in some well received OB speakers from GR Research, along with some of the other BM coxes.
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post #4 of 64 Old 03-29-2010, 11:36 PM
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I really hope you can find some suitable candidates here. I have really been interested in a nice coaxial design after seeing the JTR speakers but without the price tag. Although i have to say its probably pretty fair.

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post #5 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

Ok, some of you might remember last years battle to develop a high efficiency yet high fidelity HT speaker system which erupted in Flames when the debate over Coaxial drivers entered the mix.

I kinda took my toys and went home as there wasn't a coaxial driver that peaked my interest in this area.......until now.....



Now it is pricey, but anything worth a damn usually is. I'll leave the rest up to the pack.......Flame on my friends!

What is it ? I always wanted three 15" Tannoys as my mains. Fell in love while doing some pro audio work back in the 80's. Each cabinet had a 15" woofer and a 15" coax. 250 watts per cabinet was enough to get 120db in the smallish studio.

The 8" coax looks cool.
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post #6 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 04:57 AM
 
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Posting so that I can subscribe.
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post #7 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 05:16 AM
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Do these have crossovers built in or do they give you 2 sets of terminals?

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Originally Posted by vasyachkin
Even i, the genius, only vaguely understand what i am saying here.
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post #8 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

Ok, some of you might remember last years battle to develop a high efficiency yet high fidelity HT speaker system which erupted in Flames when the debate over Coaxial drivers entered the mix.

I kinda took my toys and went home as there wasn't a coaxial driver that peaked my interest in this area.......until now.....



Now it is pricey, but anything worth a damn usually is. I'll leave the rest up to the pack.......Flame on my friends!


Nice find, I like the looks!

Little article on the 6CX200Nd

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/b...oaxial_driver/


The woofer has less sensitivity then I would like, there will be serious padding on the HF to create a decent curve. Max Power is lower then I would have thought for a pro audio driver.

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post #9 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

Flame on my friends!

Dang! My FlameThrower is in the shop right now.
I guess I'll just be a silent observer, instead.
How much were they?
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post #10 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Nice find, I like the looks!

Little article on the 6CX200Nd

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/b...oaxial_driver/


The woofer has less sensitivity then I would like, there will be serious padding on the HF to create a decent curve. Max Power is lower then I would have thought for a pro audio driver.

Problem is that it's only a 6 1/2 driver. An 8 would likely correct those two complaints, a 10" even more!
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post #11 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

What is it ?


Beyma-6CX200Nd
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post #12 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 09:40 AM
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in case you aren't aware, the silver iris is another option.

edit: from hawthorne audio (i think)

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post #13 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 10:00 AM
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post #14 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

in case you aren't aware, the silver iris is another option.

edit: from hawthorne audio (i think)

It's basically a Beta 15 with a cheap APT crossing at 2500Hz and a Qt too high for decent use in a box. It was designed as a single driver OB unit.

I have an independent FR saved somewhere and it's awful.
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post #15 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 10:11 AM
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$289

http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm

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post #16 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

$289

http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm

Ouch, especially since the 8CX21 is <$160 from PSS.
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post #17 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Nice find, I like the looks!

Little article on the 6CX200Nd

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/b...oaxial_driver/


The woofer has less sensitivity then I would like, there will be serious padding on the HF to create a decent curve. Max Power is lower then I would have thought for a pro audio driver.

Couldnt you fix this with adding additional woofers not coaxials maybe 2 more? And then it may take just a little padding to the HF. I would it wouldbe better with multiple woofers than stand alone right?

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post #18 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew View Post

Couldnt you fix this with adding additional woofers not coaxials maybe 2 more? And then it may take just a little padding to the HF. I would it wouldbe better with multiple woofers than stand alone right?

No, the sensitivity of the system is limited by the least sensitive element. If that is the Beyma 6" cone, then adding other drivers will cause combing issues at the upper end of it's range assuming they are running together and not x-ed over at come lower freq.
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post #19 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Ouch, especially since the 8CX21 is <$160 from PSS.

Those are my thoughts too. Im still not sure why Mayhem is always trying to avoid the 8CX21. Its a succesful driver!

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post #20 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

No, the sensitivity of the system is limited by the least sensitive element. If that is the Beyma 6" cone, then adding other drivers will cause combing issues at the upper end of it's range assuming they are running together and not x-ed over at come lower freq.

Im talking like the JTR's. 2 woofers and a coaxial driver, so adding 2 woofers wouldnt increase the sensitivity of the mids?. Wouldnt you run into combing issues with any speaker using more than 1 woofer not just this? Thats why you cross at a lower frequency for 6.5" it would be 2086hz to reduce combing i thought. Whats that driver crossed at from the HF source as is? Im really curious and am trying to learn so i may be confused here and appreciate the input/correction. Not trying to jack you mayhem just trying to learn about this topic. I just dont know why you couldnt use 2 other 6.5" woofers of the same similar specs even same exact woofer type just without the HF driver.

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post #21 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew View Post

Im talking like the JTR's. 2 woofers and a coaxial driver, so adding 2 woofers wouldnt increase the sensitivity of the mids?. Wouldnt you run into combing issues with any speaker using more than 1 woofer not just this? Thats why you cross at a lower frequency for 6.5" it would be 2086hz to reduce combing i thought. Whats that driver crossed at from the HF source as is? Im really curious and am trying to learn so i may be confused here and appreciate the input/correction. Not trying to jack you mayhem just trying to learn about this topic. I just dont know why you couldnt use 2 other 6.5" woofers of the same similar specs even same exact woofer type just without the HF driver.

You'd have to make a 3 way. As it stands using only the coaxial, you're limited to about 90db after BSC. Adding a pair of woofers in parallel and making it a 3 way you're looking at getting close to 93-94 depending on the woofers and BSC.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew View Post

Im talking like the JTR's. 2 woofers and a coaxial driver, so adding 2 woofers wouldnt increase the sensitivity of the mids?. Wouldnt you run into combing issues with any speaker using more than 1 woofer not just this? Thats why you cross at a lower frequency for 6.5" it would be 2086hz to reduce combing i thought. Whats that driver crossed at from the HF source as is? Im really curious and am trying to learn so i may be confused here and appreciate the input/correction. Not trying to jack you mayhem just trying to learn about this topic. I just dont know why you couldnt use 2 other 6.5" woofers of the same similar specs even same exact woofer type just without the HF driver.

If you are going to go three-way, you are better off using a different coaxial with higher (mid) sensitivity and then adding a pair of woofers to get you down to 70-80 hertz. That way you can have a system with 95 to 100db sensitivity. In other words a JTR T8.
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post #23 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 02:54 PM
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I hadnt looked at the specs of this particular coaxial so i wasnt neccessarily referring to "IT" just in general. It would be nice to see a knock off of the JTR's done for a fraction of the price. Thats something i would be really interested in.

List your favorite BASS movies here...http://lfemovies.pbworks.com/FrontPage
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post #24 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew View Post

I hadnt looked at the specs of this particular coaxial so i wasnt neccessarily referring to "IT" just in general. It would be nice to see a knock off of the JTR's done for a fraction of the price. Thats something i would be really interested in.

....................
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post #25 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 04:58 PM
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roger that alpha niner...if you could dig up that frequency response, that would be good data to have in circulation.

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post #26 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
Ouch, especially since the 8CX21 is <$160 from PSS.

"Those are my thoughts too. Im still not sure why Mayhem is always trying to avoid the 8CX21. Its a succesful driver!"

I'm using them with the B&C XO-1 ($65) for DSX Wide and Height speakers and they sound very nice.

Spec'd at 94 dB and I don't doubt it for a second.

I would have guessed more from comparing them to my previous LCR's (Scanspeak 7"/1").

Noah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Ouch, especially since the 8CX21 is <$160 from PSS.

At $160 each I do not see why it would not be the clear choice for a coaxial speaker design. Who is PSS?
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post #28 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

At $160 each I do not see why it would not be the clear choice for a coaxial speaker design. Who is PSS?

http://www.prosoundservice.com/m9_vi...:item=BC-8CX21

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post #29 of 64 Old 03-30-2010, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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For a 'cheap' CWW maybe the 8CX21 paired with a pair of these?

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...roducts_id=848

Re at 7.3 is pretty not bad for a parallel pair and an F3 of 60hz in 1.25cuft ported ain't bad either not to mention a 93.5db effiency after BSC.
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post #30 of 64 Old 03-31-2010, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

there wasn't a coaxial driver that peaked my interest in this area.......until now.....


I don't get what's so exciting about this one? It has low surface area (only a 6.5" frame) so forget about dynamics or decently narrow midrange directivity. Adding insult to injury, the tweeter horn covers most of the radiating surface and is unterminated, so one can realistically expect diffraction everywhere.

So why, exactly, does this driver pique your interest while the Tannoy-style concentrics from B&C, et al., don't?

From my perspective, this itsy bitsy mini driver might be interesting to incorporate into an up-firing omni-style surround (a la Duevel or B&O), but that's the only use of which I can think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

What is it ? I always wanted three 15" Tannoys as my mains. Fell in love while doing some pro audio work back in the 80's. Each cabinet had a 15" woofer and a 15" coax. 250 watts per cabinet was enough to get 120db in the smallish studio.

If it was in the 1980s, then they were probably the old-style Duals. (I believe the System 215 DMT, with the modern "Tulip waveguide" Dual, came out in 1990 or so.) Do you remember what the tweeter waveguides looked like? Were they propellers or pepper-shaker tops?

As far as the more recent Tannoy Duals, having just last week had a pair of System 15 DMT II's in my home I stand by my earlier assessment that the 12" Duals are a better choice for home use. Even after running Audyssey MultEQ XT, the 15's were audibly rougher in the lower mids than the 12's. (Pre-Audyssey the difference is more pronounced, I think. I write "I think" because with MultEQ XT off I could do a nearly immediate A/B comparison, and the limitations of aural memory + expectations of improvement from MultEQ XT may color my perception there.)

True, some of the difference could be cabinet-related, as I have mine in cabinets with nothing on the baffle to diffract and large roundovers all around, but Tannoy's published measurements for both show the 12's to be smoother as well.

The 15's were more sensitive. To achieve the same levels with the 12's on a 1kHz sine wave I had to move the volume on my 4308ci/A up four clicks, whatever that means. (I think the published difference is 2dB.)

The 15 DMT II's extra dynamic capability may be an asset in very large rooms, but with three 12 DMT II-based mains even listening to music at voice-modulating levels I've yet to hear them sound strained, or even perceptibly "loud." And the 15's are huuuuuuuge. It's really something to see how thoroughly they dwarf the already large 12's.

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