Ricci's dual B&C 21SW152 build thread. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Last Thursday I got a twitchy index finger and ordered a pair of these drivers after looking at them for a long time. The other contender's were 18Sound's 21NLW9600 and the TC Sounds PA5100. I could not seem to locate the 18Sound and the pricing would've undoubtedly been much higher. I was thinking about trying the TC when I found an incredible price on the B&C. $579.95 plus $25.50 shipping each. $605.45 shipped. That's a little over $100 cheaper than anywhere else I'd seen them. Had to purchase a pair while the getting was good.

http://www.bcspeakers.com/PDF/PRD/21SW152.pdf

Here if anyone is interested. They have some other B&C stuff for cheap as well.

http://www.savinglots.com/lotprod.asp?item=21SW152

It's a ghetto looking operation but apparently they've been in business for a long time and have a good rep. I guess I'll find out. The drivers are due to arrive tomorrow.


These will be used in a PA type manner usually in a fixed location for drum reinforcement, some bass guitar and music playback, but they may ocassionally be dragged out for duty at local concerts, so they can be big but have to be manageable by just 2 guys. 600L is the limit I decided on. I'm only looking for full response from 100-120hz or so down to 25-30hz at which point they'll be hpf'd. Maximum loudness and fidelity over that range is the order of the day. I've got a few preliminary ideas for the cabinets these will go in, but I'm undecided still. Part of me wants to go for a regular old ported build because it's simple, relatively small and I could run the cabs up quite a bit higher than 120hz if there was a need for it. The other part says to try a horn build, whether to try a TH or a FLH though? Each approach seems to have some advantages.

I'll post my current simulations below. All sims are in 4.0pi space (anechoic) I'll be using a bridged Crest 8002 on each drive which is rated at 4000w into 4ohm. The RE of the driver puts the minimum impedance of any of the cabs in the 3.5ohm range which should end up near 4ohm minimum in reality. 117v is just under 4Kw into the minimum impedance. The amp should be able to easily deliver more voltage into the higher impedances (rated at 130v peak per channel).


I'm looking for constructive criticism guys. Give me some input Got something that looks better than the sims that I have? Post it up please.
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post #2 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Ported


Interestingly the peak near port tuning is much more pronounced in HR than with Unibox or WinIsd. I'd like to make that a little smoother, but I feel it may not be so pronounced in reality and it is already going to be very difficult to fit enough port on these drives without making the cab smaller. I figure about 75sq in of port is the minimum for these drives, which is a 10" port. This is a 27.5hz tuned 10cu ft (283L) cab with 117v input.




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post #3 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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FLH

This is a rough sim that I've got. 600L 30hz. I'm not an expert at horns by any stretch so let me know if something is glaringly wrong. I'm not sure how feasible this is to build in reality either, I'll deal with that later. The compression ratio is 4-1 which may be too high for a 21" drive? I can switch to a 3.36-1 compression ratio without too much change to the cab size/response. Again this is at 117v in.







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post #4 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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600L 27hz TH







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post #5 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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370L 30HZ TH

I sort of like this one due to the size, but I don't know how realistic it is to actually build this cab. It loses a lot of efficiency, but it still beats out the vented by 3db over most of the range in a cab nearly the same size.






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post #6 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 12:03 PM
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Will have to when I get home. Won't let me delete from my phone. Don't know why.
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post #7 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 12:06 PM
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Sweet! Sounds like a fun build, Ricci. Will be watching this one.

How does the SW152 compare to the NLW9600? I'm guessing just the price and ...well...different manufacturer, of course. This one looks pretty nuts.

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post #8 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 12:10 PM
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This is going to be awesome - I say horn load those beasts
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post #9 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 12:13 PM
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just for fun...a quick model of the 21sw152 in a th-50 type tapped horn.

gray line is a pretty close model of the actual th-50. black line is the same enclosure with the 21sw152.



EDIT: my best guess for the th-50 specs and 21sw152 driver are attached. (the compression ratio may be too high in this alignment...just fyi)
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post #10 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Junkie! Can't get enough huh?


I've got issues... I should've stuck with hookers and blow.

Maybe I'll drag one of these down to your place when they are done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

holy snot! i knew you were cooking up something like this. what alignment are you considering? i'm smelling tapped horn with about a 15hz bottom corner, but my sense of smell might be clouded by the alaskan crab legs i have heating at the moment.

brandon, delete out post 5 so ricci's reserved will all be consecutive.

I'm going for 25-30hz corner on these (Maximum bang). Although I have a very pretty 600L 16hz sim.

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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Sweet! Sounds like a fun build, Ricci. Will be watching this one.

How does the SW152 compare to the NLW9600? I'm guessing just the price and ...well...different manufacturer, of course. This one looks pretty nuts.

Basically like Magic versus Bird. I wanted to try the 9600 because it had slightly more xmech for safety and it modeled just a hair smoother. It's also harder to find, quite a bit more expensive, and has a small5.3" vc versus the B&C's 6" vc. Otherwise things appear to be evenly matched for the most part. Xmax is 15-16mm for both, shorting rings+ neo motors+ huge voice coils all around, relatively light weights and the power handlings are both ridiculous.

Beyma has what looks to be a good 21" pro unit for about $400 too if anybody's into that sort of thing.
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post #11 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 01:11 PM
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how does one determine how high of a compression ratio is safe and sustainable for a driver without blowing it out testing? 2:1, 3:1, 4:1, what can this driver sustain at power over time???

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post #12 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Well...I guess I'll just have to find out. I'm assuming that the drives will handle a lot of power for extended periods. They are 21" pro drives with 6" vc's after all. I know that people put 4kw rated amps on front loaded double 18 cabs with 4"vc woofers rated at 1000w quite regularily. I don't expect my useage to be as severe as touring or doing club sound continuosly.
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post #13 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 02:15 PM
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Hey, Ricci .... what's your opinion of AE's TD18H+? I know you ordered these already. It sure has a much larger VC (2.5" vs 6" ). I like AE's lower Le and linearity of inductance/flux modulation.

I modeled it against the B&C and could not detect any advantage over the TD18H+. Maybe I was doing something wrong. EDIT: Eh, nevermind. I was modeling it against a different 21 incher.

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post #14 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

..

I'm looking for constructive criticism guys. Give me some input Got something that looks better than the sims that I have? Post it up please.


Put goat horns on the top of the box for the evil effect.




The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #15 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 02:36 PM
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Truely horn-loaded!

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post #16 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Hey, Ricci .... what's your opinion of AE's TD18H+? I know you ordered these already. It sure has a much larger VC (2.5" vs 6" ). I like AE's lower Le and linearity of inductance/flux modulation.

I modeled it against the B&C and could not detect any advantage over the TD18H+. Maybe I was doing something wrong.

It's a good looking/modeling driver, but I don't have personal experience with it. Less cone area, less power handling, less xmax, less x-mechanical, smaller voice coil. Most of the B&C measurements I've seen are decent and this is their top of the line bass driver, it should be ok for the range I intend to use it for.
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post #17 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

I've got issues... I should've stuck with hookers and blow.

Maybe I'll drag one of these down to your place when they are done.


Let me know any I will help you unload those beasts. Sounds like fun. And the subs sound like fun to. Hehe.
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post #18 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 04:20 PM
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I'm looking at these, but have found something interesting. The numbers Ricci and LTD02 used are different. Using the PDF Ricci linked to I get slightly different numbers from both.

Did you guys use something other than HR to come up with the extra T/S parameters?

They are all close enough not to really matter, but I am curious.
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post #19 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 05:01 PM
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Is it such a good idea to horn load such a large surface area woofer?

http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/vi...hp?f=10&t=1130

Have you had a look at the offerings from BFM for pro sound subs?

Have you had a look at the 21sw1600nd from beyma?

http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/21SW1600Nd.pdf

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post #20 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 05:12 PM
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Is it such a good idea to horn load such a large surface area woofer?

It's OK with some. They just have to be overbuilt enough.

Here is a commercial TH with a version of this driver TH-221. There is also seems to be a TH-118 forth coming with an Eighteen Sound 18" driver.
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post #21 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

I'm looking at these, but have found something interesting. The numbers Ricci and LTD02 used are different. Using the PDF Ricci linked to I get slightly different numbers from both.

Did you guys use something other than HR to come up with the extra T/S parameters?

They are all close enough not to really matter, but I am curious.

I use HR to adjust the MMD value which is not the same as MMS listed by the manufacturer. That's one difference. Also I use auto calc based on the MMS,BL,RE, SD, and CMS. Sometimes this gives a slight variation from manufacturer's specs usually in the qes, qts and the vas. Once you get into the modeling these very small differences don't matter much. As far as what LTD02 has posted...Who knows what that guy has going on.
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post #22 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DL86 View Post

Have you had a look at the 21sw1600nd from beyma?

http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/21SW1600Nd.pdf

Mentioned it earlier in this thread. You can pick them up for about $400. Looks good. As far as horn loading bigger woofers, it's not too often that they are used but some of these newer high powered units are listed as being "great" for horns. I assume if you keep the compression ratio decent.
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post #23 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the qes spec on the b&c is 0.31, while the qes on the beyma is 0.40. a low qes spec seems to correlate well with what folks refer to as "speed/tightness/attack" in woofers, so i'd expect the b&c to have better performance in the upper part of the bass (a good comparo is the jbl 2241h to the 2242h if you want to research it). 0.31 is very low for a driver of this size. you could probably use it as a midrange with good performance, though you would get stoned to death for heresy before you ever got to the build. :-)

So thats why my eighteen sound 21lw1400 sub sounds so good! QES = 0.242.

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post #24 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 10:08 PM
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I think you're wasting your time trying to build an exotic box for these things. Think simple, small, and sealed. These drivers look perfect for an "ELF done right."

A 100L sealed box (that's just 24"x24"x15") yields a near perfect Qtc, minutely above 0.5. Output is there, too. With 2kW, hardly outlandish with modern pro amps, you'll get 110dB at 20Hz on paper, and significantly more in the 40-80Hz range.

I would suspect a B&C 21 in a 100L box would handily beat a Maelstrom-X in a similar-sized box, because of the better thermal properties of the 6" voicecoil.

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post #25 of 518 Old 04-05-2010, 11:59 PM
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Ricci, (keeping all OP restraints/wants in mind) for re-enforcement duties I think I would have to go with your ported option for simplicity and compact size...
or... the FLH for better everything at the expense of size and portability (ignoring a compression issue.)

If you are willing to go up to the ~700l range the extra 3-4dB would make the TH version a little more appealing, but that is over the size limit.

I am worried about the compression levels in these horns. This driver may be able to take 3:1, but I don't know about it or the higher numbers here. A trip through AkAbak my be in order. In the THs you could raise S2 and really lower S1, and not have to change much else. You could also add a true throat chamber, but that would require a major overhaul. The OD FLH would probably require a rework from the ground up.

You are in pretty good with DSL, I would shoot a message to TD or IB about what they think a possible safe limit with this driver is.
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post #26 of 518 Old 04-06-2010, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the sealed option would work for most folks. however, it gives up around 15db of max output around 30hz to a th-50 type tapped horn.

While having much better upper-bass performance, taking up much much much less space, and having greater placement flexibility.

And at the levels we're talking about, in either case in most domestic settings two of these things will just be loafing anyway.

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post #27 of 518 Old 04-06-2010, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

I think you're wasting your time trying to build an exotic box for these things. Think simple, small, and sealed. These drivers look perfect for an "ELF done right."

A 100L sealed box (that's just 24"x24"x15") yields a near perfect Qtc, minutely above 0.5. Output is there, too. With 2kW, hardly outlandish with modern pro amps, you'll get 110dB at 20Hz on paper, and significantly more in the 40-80Hz range.

I would suspect a B&C 21 in a 100L box would handily beat a Maelstrom-X in a similar-sized box, because of the better thermal properties of the 6" voicecoil.

Quote:
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While having much better upper-bass performance, taking up much much much less space, and having greater placement flexibility.

And at the levels we're talking about, in either case in most domestic settings two of these things will just be loafing anyway.

Interesting. 2k for 110dB @ 20hz is bit much though. I'd really like to try this with a quad set of TD18H+ drivers but I seriously doubt I could get that kind of power in my room.

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post #28 of 518 Old 04-06-2010, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

While having much better upper-bass performance, taking up much much much less space, and having greater placement flexibility.

And at the levels we're talking about, in either case in most domestic settings two of these things will just be loafing anyway.

DS-21,

I may indeed try a pair of these in a dual opposed sealed config for fun, but I don't have need of any more sealed subs. Plenty there already. This is for a PA style set-up. "Domestic settings" are not even on the radar here. Think 12,000cu ft warehouse room supporting live amplified music, thrown in the back of a truck about 10 times, or outdoors in a field in a moderate rain with some drunk guy leaning on it and beer spilled down the side (maybe not that bad but you get the point.).
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post #29 of 518 Old 04-06-2010, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i don't doubt they can take serious power. my concern about compression ratio was more about damaging the suspension components. my understanding is that 3:1 is ok for something like a good quality 15". danley seems to use something around 2:1 for the th-50. 4:1 for a 21" seems a little high, but that is just a w.a.g. it may also depend on the angle of the enclosure. a steeper angle would seem to put greater differential forces across the driver than a lesser angle, another w.a.g. i'd hate to see you blow apart your new toys.

They do have recone kits. I hope I don't have to go there though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

Ricci, (keeping all OP restraints/wants in mind) for re-enforcement duties I think I would have to go with your ported option for simplicity and compact size...
or... the FLH for better everything at the expense of size and portability (ignoring a compression issue.)

If you are willing to go up to the ~700l range the extra 3-4dB would make the TH version a little more appealing, but that is over the size limit.

I am worried about the compression levels in these horns. This driver may be able to take 3:1, but I don't know about it or the higher numbers here. A trip through AkAbak my be in order. In the THs you could raise S2 and really lower S1, and not have to change much else. You could also add a true throat chamber, but that would require a major overhaul. The OD FLH would probably require a rework from the ground up.

You are in pretty good with DSL, I would shoot a message to TD or IB about what they think a possible safe limit with this driver is.

I am sort of leaning towards a simple ported build. Simpler, smaller, and probably a hair bit cheaper too, plus we can run a bass guitar through it full range for fun. I'd like to keep the size at least somewhat reasonable and 600-700L horns, while bringing the thunder, are also going to be really heavy and a PITA to move.

What do you think about the 370L TH sim? It's intrigueing to me.


I will probably shoot an email to Tom and see if he will give me his thoughts about what sort of compression ratio is workable for these in practice. I can get the compression down to 3/1 without making the response too much choppier.

Even though I'd like to try a FLH I just don't see it in the cards. If you get a chance play around with it and see what you come up with. I've got at least a week or 3 of planning before I start on anything. Who knows maybe I'll do a ported cab for one and the small TH for the other and see what happens.
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post #30 of 518 Old 04-06-2010, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

any idea what the advantage of something like this would be?

http://www.eighteensound.com/staticC...21_%20Prel.pdf

The band pass boxes will have around as much output as the THs here, but with less bandwidth up top. I messed around with a 6th order for a little bit, but wrote it off. I think for his primary "drum" application he is going to need the area right above 100Hz.
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