Trying to find the right place to enter DIY - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 02:15 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
ratchetfps's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I've been wanting to start a speaker project for some time although I am having a hard time feeling informed enough to pick a particular design. Music is my passion in life and I really want to take the time to do my homework before investing my time & money in my first DIY audio project.

I've currently got a pair of Mackie MR-8 Studio Reference Monitors (mackie.com/products/mrseries/) for my DJ setup and home theater. I really love these units and the fact that they are active really makes life simple >_<

I'm ready to explore the world of passive DIY speakers, and would like to start by building a pair of towers that rival (or, ideally, surpass) the quality of my current monitors. My biggest issue is determining how much to spend, as I don't want to spend around ~$500 building some speakers only to neglect them and spend my time listening to my Mackies.

As most folks new to DIY I looked at the TriTrix kit (parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Tritrix) but quickly disregarded them as I don't think they'll be substantially better (if at all better) than my current setup (not to mention I want to build my own towers from scratch). I'd really like to build towers as opposed to bookshelf monitors as I just love the look! Now I've been drooling over the Copper Project (parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=CopperProject) as it uses much better drivers yet still utilizes a very simple crossover and cabinet design. Any thoughts on the Copper Project design?

I've been trying to find more designs other than those found on Parts Express, but find most forums inundated with sub build after sub build =( I'd really appreciate any and all help you folks can offer....I would LOVE to start my project ASAP!! I don't intend this to be my soul fulfilling setup that will last me decades, but I want to build something of relatively high quality that will last me a couple years until I can learn more about speaker design and acoustics.

Concerning my setup/budget:
- I would like to spend no more than $600 on the speakers & crossover, although I'm leaning more towards cheaper designs since this is my first project. If this is an unrealistic budget (or overly generous), please let me know!! I am really interested in learning the value of DIY speakers.
- I am still in the process of picking out a new receiver, although I believe it will be either an HK 3490 or an Onkyo TX-SR608
- Working with a mid-sized bedroom that I am going to completely re-arrange to accommodate the speakers

Any thoughts on where I should begin? I'm really interested in what you've got to say!
ratchetfps is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 02:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
zero the hero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,360
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You need to look at the Mission Accomplished subforum over at HTGuide - something like the Statements or Khanspires are good designs to check out
zero the hero is offline  
post #3 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 02:36 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,929
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 114 Post(s)
Liked: 840
i would increase your budget and go for a two-way design with a good woofer and good horn.

wayne parham of pispeakers.com has the 4pi (use the 2226h driver and b&c compression options).

earl geddes of gedlee.com has a pretty nice speaker that uses a 12" woofer.

both will sound smooth and have dynamics that will blow the little mackies away. you will know why you bothered when you are done.

of course, there are a number of "econowave" builds going. search on econowaveguide at audiokarma.org. lots of happy people with that build as well.

good luck.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #4 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 10:34 AM
Advanced Member
 
ZilchLab's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 944
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

of course, there are a number of "econowave" builds going. search on econowaveguide at audiokarma.org. lots of happy people with that build as well.

E.g.:


http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...87#post3668187

The list:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthr...84#post2260584
LL

.
....Crank up the SIGNAL ... cut back the noise....
ZilchLab is offline  
post #5 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
ratchetfps's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for the great help, guys!

The Mini Statements look like EXACTLY what I'm looking for! I'm definately going to keep looking but right now those towers are my top pick, they seem excellent (and right in my price range at $550 for the drivers/crossovers)

Definitely getting excited about this; thanks for the help....keep it coming
ratchetfps is offline  
post #6 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 02:14 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
You have to like "compression driver" sound to get into wavguide designs like the econowaveguides.

Its something that should be sampled for a bit first and if you are use to Ribbons or soft domes then it might be a big in your face sound that might disappoint.

I have built the waveguide designs but I have also built 3-way active designs with ribbon tweeters.

Waveguides have increadible contant directivity that can not be ignored but the ribbon designs sound better in the sweet spot. Im still searching for better Compression driver sound. (Note: Better for me, others may find current CD choices to be just fine, its up to each of us to find out what we like)

The statements are always a great start into DIY!! Many, many, many happy owners.

Once you get them built then your 2nd build should be an active design...you will learn how to measure without worry about XO building. Your 3rd build will be a passive design, measuring, XO sims and XO build.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #7 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 02:46 PM
Advanced Member
 
ZilchLab's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 944
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You have to like "compression driver" sound to get into wavguide designs like the econowaveguides.

Indeed, clarity, dynamics, low distortion, full HF bandwidth, constant directivity -- all that stuff....

.
....Crank up the SIGNAL ... cut back the noise....
ZilchLab is offline  
post #8 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 04:40 PM
Member
 
buggers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 145
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...82&PID=2777698

I can recommend the NatP or his big brother the Modula.
buggers is offline  
post #9 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 06:14 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,929
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 114 Post(s)
Liked: 840
"The Mini Statements look like EXACTLY what I'm looking for!"

don't take this the wrong way, but you don't actually know what you are looking at.

this happens all the time.

the speaker that zilch posted has so much going for it, but to the untrained eye, it looks like a mediocre enclosure with a weird horn on top. what you aren't seeing are things such as the controlled directivity that will minimize reflections and tighten up imaging by providing on-axis similiar spectral content off-axis, or the uncompressed dynamics offered by the high efficiency drivers, or the...etc. etc.

before you make up your mind, i would suggest that you listen to the linkwitz presentation on reproducing sound in rooms. it has several parts. somebody put it on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC-sx...eature=related

you should also read as much as possible from earl geddes, wayne parham, and floyd toole.

http://www.gedlee.com/

and

http://www.audioroundtable.com/PiSpe...ges/23369.html

and here is one article by toole

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_i...ritic_28_r.pdf

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #10 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 06:20 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZilchLab View Post

Indeed, clarity, dynamics, low distortion, full HF bandwidth, constant directivity -- all that stuff....

and "Harsh edge" to it! Some CDs are worse then others.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #11 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 06:25 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"The Mini Statements look like EXACTLY what I'm looking for!"

don't take this the wrong way, but you don't actually know what you are looking at.

this happens all the time.

So do fan posting for a certain design. LTD is the resident pro audio fan. You won't catch him discussing anything else.

It always begs the question? What does LTD build, what speakers does LTD own and what drivers does he have in his garage for comparison

While you posted that saying he doesn't know what he is looking for...I was wondering how can you remotely know what he is looking for either?

Your link to linkwitz is a good one so props for that but Im sure there will be enough build a waveguide speaker beat downs in this thread claiming superior sound.

I think the OP should know who the locals are. Zilch is great speaker designer but a huge horn fan. Looks are not a concern for him (you have to look past any picture he posts ). He has tons of knowledge and experience in the DIY horn design arena. Me, I have built several DIY speakers from Kits (NHT VR-3 kits and recession buster kits) to high end 3-way active design with over $2K in drivers alone. My current project is the waveguide designs talked.

I have had over 20 different pairs of speakers. I once bought 10 sets in 2 weeks to compare, sent all of them back afterwards, I do not mind spending $$$ to learn everything I can about audio. I have owned everything from Salk to B&W.

Dynamics and Constant Directivity is king (hence waveguide designs) but I will not sacrifice ultimate SQ and so far all CDs I have used lack that compared to ribbons.

Dome designs just do not cut the directivity and Dynamics I demand. Not sure if the OP cares but once you have those its hard to go back.

Saying all that I believe the Statements to be great designs and they are far beyond what the OP owns now. He has to start somewhere and its a proven design that looks GREAT! Let the OP decide if looks matter!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #12 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
ratchetfps's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You're right, LTD02, I really have little idea what I'm looking at. What I want is high fidelity in a small/medium space and, in my mind, a WWMT design would trump that of a 12" woofer and compression driver. To me, the econowaveguide looks more like a PA cab that is capable of pumping out great SPL but could be missing accuracy in the mids.

The other factor I took into consideration is price. I see the econowaveguides weigh in at about $200ish for drivers/xover, which is less than the price of one of my current monitors. While I'm sure DIY provides substantial value, I would be very impressed if these were able to substantially outperform my current setup (especially in a small/medium room).

Believe it or not I have heard the Selenium D210Ti on my friends upgraded JBL JRX-115 cabs. I've been DJing for 3 years now and am very familiar with the pro audio (compression driver and big woofer) sound. In my opinion, it has its place (and that's not the bedroom)

Regardless of my assumptions (which are likely incorrect!), I really do appreciate the info you have provided. I am a very thankful for opportunities to learn that will help me make my own decisions rather than a simple link and 1-line recommendation. Again, thanks for the informative links, I will be reviewing them in detail =)
ratchetfps is offline  
post #13 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 06:48 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:


in my mind, a WWMT design would trump that of a 12" woofer and compression driver.

If you tweeter is a dome then it stand no chance in terms of low distortion, dynamics compared to waveguide designs. Off axis on domes sucks too and for true accuracy better off axis response is needed that is more or less constant directivity

FWIW here is my waveguide design. They are not remotely like PA speaker !! I fully understand your selenium comment though!

The statement design does not have the dynamics my speakers have...My one 12" kicks the crap out the WW in the statement design You have to learn about the drivers involved to understand what we are talking about.


It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #14 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 07:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
IF you want even a better look then how trying to recreate these...Mine started based off that design.


It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #15 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 07:01 PM
Advanced Member
 
ZilchLab's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 944
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I would suggest that there's a significant difference between D210Ti and DE250.

EconoWave Deluxe costs $420 each to build, including cheap cabs, less than 1/3 the cost of the equivalent Geddes Abbey kit using the same compression driver:

http://www.gedlee.com/Loudspeakers.htm

Also see Augerpro's "No Quarters" here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1167816

.
....Crank up the SIGNAL ... cut back the noise....
ZilchLab is offline  
post #16 of 16 Old 05-06-2010, 07:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
maxmercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,308
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 120
Something else to ponder for directivity and dynamics (given the right listening environment/room):

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/links.htm#Constant beam width transducer

Could be very pricey, though, having to buy all those drivers.....

JSS
maxmercy is offline  
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off