Infinite Baffle - 2 Fi IB3-18s - Attic Manifold- - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 62 Old 05-17-2010, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I will post lots of pics when I have time, but I now have my infinte baffle sub running.

Equipment List:

Fi Car Audio - IB3-18 2 Ohm Subs - Qty 2
Behringer EP1500 Amp running 2 X 700W @ 2 Ohm
Behringer DSP1124P FBD Parametric EQ
22.5 x 23.5 x 17.5 Box with Inside Dimensions of 19.5 X 22 X 14.5
12 Ga Speaker Wire
RCA to 1/4" phone Cable
Mono 1/4" Female to Dual 1/4" male phone, mono cable.
1/4" phone to 1/4" phone cable

This project came in at $920, but I had some of the materials already and all the tools.

I hit 122db on my RS SPL meter 13 ft from the manifold watching LOTR Chapter 30.

I have not done much RTA yet as I am too busy enjoying it, but some loose measurements had me flat down to 12Hz.

I have very detailed pics at Cult of the Infinitely Baffled.My Project
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post #2 of 62 Old 05-17-2010, 12:58 PM
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Hi there,

The link doesn't seem to work. I am interested in having a look.

cheers

Graham
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post #3 of 62 Old 05-17-2010, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by gperkins1973 View Post

Hi there,

The link doesn't seem to work. I am interested in having a look.

cheers

Graham

Works fine for me. You probably can't view it b/c you need to register at the site to view the threads in the "my project" section. It only takes a sec and there's lots of great builds and info there.
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post #4 of 62 Old 05-17-2010, 02:50 PM
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Just had a quick flick through. Lovely build.

cheers

Graham
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post #5 of 62 Old 05-17-2010, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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If you have not heard an IB, you have to. Since there is no box tuned to a certain frequency, it is free to reproduce the most perfect bass you can imagine.

The below is a post from Chrisbee at the Cult of the Infinitely Baffled on my thread, page 7. He explains why not only an IB sounds so good, but how it makes the rest of your speakers sound better as well.


May 13, 2010, 11:30am, pmcneil wrote:No, there is more to it than that. We both had subs taking that load before we built the IB, and my crossover frequency is unchanged.

But maybe the key is not 'taking the workload' but 'good' sub.

I'm wondering what in this case explains the 'good'?

Chrisbee wrote:

The absence of distortion from the IB allows the fundamental to be clearly exposed rather than obscured by false harmonics. No single low frequency tone is ever involved in the reproduction of sound so the false harmonics (of other subwoofers) are as complex as the input signal itself.

The absence of these complex "muddy" upper bass harmonics (from the IB) prevents the speaker's output from being masked. Masking is a very common form of deafness which denies the listener the ability to effortlessly decode the underlying "message" in the signal. Speech quickly becomes unintelligible when masked by background or foreground noise. The brain lacks the ability to automatically filter the wanted signal from the "crud". This makes listening very hard work instead of the natural pastime we take for granted in everyday life.

The IB frees the listener of the heavy computational workload of decoding the hash. Listening becomes easier because it is so effortless to hear the message against the greatly reduced, wideband noise floor reaching our ears.

Despite the subwoofer handling only a couple of lower octaves it affects the entire frequency response of the speaker system. False harmonics combine with other false frequencies to produce yet more complex tones both above and below the original signal.

We learn from birth to recognise sounds and instruments from their harmonic structure. It used to have survival value but now it is mostly for our entertainment, for its emotional stimulus leading to enjoyment.

When denied a true harmonic "signature" to every note the brain becomes confused. It cannot instantly recognise a saxophone from a clarinet or an oboe from a bassoon. The expected harmonic structure is so badly distorted that we waste brain computing time trying to recognise sounds. Like a person learning a new language cannot keep up with fast speech as they have to try and interpret every syllable and inflection into their own, native language. Understanding is easily lost in the race to comprehend meaning by heavy number crunching.

The unwanted and artificial hash produced by most subwoofers has its own frequency response and phase superimposed on the speaker's output. The greater the clarity of the subwoofer the greater the sense of realism because nothing is added which wasn't in the original signal.

If any proof were needed of the IB's greater clarity, realism and low distortion then one only needs to listen to the great pipes of the organ being reproduced.

Where tones are at the limit of audibility (and beyond) the slightest low frequency distortion will rob the listener of the amazing subtlety and clarity of their interplay and means of vocal expression. The way they speak. The leading edge, sustain and decay are all laid bare by the IB. It can play these low notes with breathtaking clarity. Devoid of the masking additions so common to other subwoofers. No two pipes speak alike. Only the IB can reproduce this so effortlessly that we can hear it without overloading the brain's audio analysis into computational reading errors. The pipes become nimble and articulate. Clearly exposing the skills of the organist. Or lack of.
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post #6 of 62 Old 05-17-2010, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Here are the finished pics from the attic and family room with home theatre.


Attachment 175844

Attachment 175845
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post #7 of 62 Old 05-17-2010, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I added 2X6s to brace the ceiling joists and to glue and screw the drywall.
Attachment 175846

I added camper tape to seal and decouple the box.
Attachment 175847

I used plates to secure the box to the joists
Attachment 175848

I used banana plugs and cable stay to tie down the cables.
Attachment 175849

I built clamps out of 1/8" aluminum and drilled out holes for clamps. I also used bonded washers to seal the hole for the bolt.
Attachment 175850
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post #8 of 62 Old 05-17-2010, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I used rare earth magnets to attach the grill.
Attachment 175851

Attachment 175852

I but back the drywall to place the grill frame and trim.
Attachment 175853

A picture of the sub installed.
Attachment 175854

Me looking through hole.
Attachment 175855
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post #9 of 62 Old 05-17-2010, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Many thanks to ThomasW at Cult of the Infinitely Baffled. He has step by step instructions how to achieve an IB sub.

I will be EQing my sub soon and posting lots of graphs.
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post #10 of 62 Old 05-18-2010, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Attachment 175998

Attachment 175999

Attachment 176000
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post #11 of 62 Old 05-18-2010, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
If you have not heard an IB, you have to.

People here are well aware of the potential of an IB, no need to sell it

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #12 of 62 Old 05-18-2010, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

People here are well aware of the potential of an IB, no need to sell it

No... No... please... let him keep selling it. I have (2) IB3 18's that have been laying around for the last couple of months because I'm too chickens#!t to cut into my wall. LOL

Do these really sound that good? Have I been sitting on these subs that are going to blow my mind?
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post #13 of 62 Old 05-18-2010, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky08016 View Post

No... No... please... let him keep selling it. I have (2) IB3 18's that have been laying around for the last couple of months because I'm too chickens#!t to cut into my wall. LOL

Do these really sound that good? Have I been sitting on these subs that are going to blow my mind?

With that lofty expectation I would say no!! j/k!

The DTS-10 is the new kid on the block now.....IBs are a thing of the past

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #14 of 62 Old 05-19-2010, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

With that lofty expectation I would say no!! j/k!

The DTS-10 is the new kid on the block now.....IBs are a thing of the past

LOL!!!! And with the QSC build, just where am I going to fit the DTS-10??? I honestly wish I could fit a DTS-10 but I guess the twin IB3 18's will have to do. Such a sacrifice...
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post #15 of 62 Old 05-19-2010, 03:59 AM - Thread Starter
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No... No... please... let him keep selling it. I have (2) IB3 18's that have been laying around for the last couple of months because I'm too chickens#!t to cut into my wall. LOL

Do these really sound that good? Have I been sitting on these subs that are going to blow my mind?

My goal was to extend my low frequency response for HT.

What I got was a sub that sounds different than any sub that I have ever heard. The SQ is through the roof for music and HT. All with cutting a small hole in my ceiling and building the smallest box you can possibly fit two 18s in. I have so much overhead it is not even funny. I have felt quesy watching movies... My ears are still recovering from my demo sessions. Good thing I am on a road trip to give my ears a rest.

Where in the hell are you going to put one or two 5ft x 4ft boxes unless you have a dedicated home theatre or no wife!!!

As far as the drywall... it is relatively easy and very inexpensive to fix if you don't like it. Take the plunge. You won't be dissapointed.

I am assuming penn has heard an IB. I am selling it, but like shoes... no one solution fits everybody. An IB is for some, the DTS-10 is for some, High-end reference subs are for some, and HT in a box is for the rest!!!
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post #16 of 62 Old 05-19-2010, 04:32 AM
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Sorry, I should explain myself.

Yes, I have heard an IB. I have the original Q18s when scott From Fi first start selling 18" woofers to the HT crow. They are in an IB array in my family room ceiling

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #17 of 62 Old 05-19-2010, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Penn-

I am guessing you have heard or own a DTS-10 as well. IYO, how does an IB compare in SQ to the DTS-10.

I am starting to plan my dedicated HT in my basement and the thought of building a massive false wall to house an IB and lose 5ft of room length is getting less and less appealing every day.
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post #18 of 62 Old 05-19-2010, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesquin View Post

Penn-

I am guessing you have heard or own a DTS-10 as well. IYO, how does an IB compare in SQ to the DTS-10.

I am starting to plan my dedicated HT in my basement and the thought of building a massive false wall to house an IB and lose 5ft of room length is getting less and less appealing every day.

I have heard Tapped Horn Designs but I have not heard the DTS-10.

What I do like about the DTS-10 vs the IB design is the cost of the overall design. Less drivers and no rear wave going throught the house.

Both have their pros and cons and either choice is a GREAT SUB SYSTEM setup. We could split hairs and argue about the silliest numbers but either one is superior to what 99.9% of all people own and either design will scare the crap out of people

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post #19 of 62 Old 05-19-2010, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I have heard Tapped Horn Designs but I have not heard the DTS-10.

What I do like about the DTS-10 vs the IB design is the cost of the overall design. Less drivers and no rear wave going throught the house.

Both have their pros and cons and either choice is a GREAT SUB SYSTEM setup. We could split hairs and argue about the silliest numbers but either one is superior to what 99.9% of all people own and either design will scare the crap out of people

Great!!! That's what I'm looking for... something to match the QSC stuff in SQ and to render most people that are in the room to mush!!!

I guess I've been sitting these (2) IB3 18's for no good reason!!! Now I have yet another project to complete during my vacation the week after.
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post #20 of 62 Old 05-19-2010, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky08016 View Post

Great!!! That's what I'm looking for... something to match the QSC stuff in SQ and to render most people that are in the room to mush!!!

I guess I've been sitting these (2) IB3 18's for no good reason!!! Now I have yet another project to complete during my vacation the week after.

Yep, I just put in two IB18s in my living room and love them. My HT buddies around here were very curious. One thought the entire world (and house) would hear the bass louder than tolerable and the other thought I was putting 2 18s in just to one up everyone. Then we watched a movie and they converted to the IB love and were asking how they could put one in their house.

The bass in other parts of the house is loud. But to me at say 90 db with the ported 12s I had before compared to 90 db with the IB, other rooms in the house are with in 1 or 2 db of each other in residual noise. So really the lesson is that loud bass carries through out a house that isn't designed to isolate it whether it is from a traditional box/horn or an IB.
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post #21 of 62 Old 05-19-2010, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I have heard Tapped Horn Designs but I have not heard the DTS-10.

What I do like about the DTS-10 vs the IB design is the cost of the overall design. Less drivers and no rear wave going throught the house.

Both have their pros and cons and either choice is a GREAT SUB SYSTEM setup. We could split hairs and argue about the silliest numbers but either one is superior to what 99.9% of all people own and either design will scare the crap out of people

One disadvantage of the DTS-10 vs an IB system is size of the DTS in the room(or other tapped sub). IBs for the most part are completely hidden from view. IB installs, however, can be problematic depending on availability of rear wave space in an adjacent room or attic.

-Darrell
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post #22 of 62 Old 05-19-2010, 03:07 PM
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One disadvantage of the DTS-10 vs an IB system is size of the DTS in the room(or other tapped sub). IBs for the most part are completely hidden from view. IB installs, however, can be problematic depending on availability of rear wave space in an adjacent room or attic.

-Darrell

I always find it funny when someone posts arguing with me about the merits of an IB, considering I have one in my family room

Honestly the DTS has a 16"x54" foot print. Its like putting a skinny wall unit against a wall actually. Its much less intrusive then a 24x36 sub because vertical space isn't a problem. People can make the DTS disappear, trim it out to any side wall.


Anyways, we can argue compromises all day, its been argued to death.

For example, I could argue that the IB is tthe hardest build period because most people do not have adjacent space (10x vas) to create the box.

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post #23 of 62 Old 05-19-2010, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I always find it funny when someone posts arguing with me about the merits of an IB, considering I have one in my family room

Honestly the DTS has a 16"x54" foot print. Its like putting a skinny wall unit against a wall actually. Its much less intrusive then a 24x36 sub because vertical space isn't a problem. People can make the DTS disappear, trim it out to any side wall.


Anyways, we can argue compromises all day, its been argued to death.

For example, I could argue that the IB is tthe hardest build period because most people do not have adjacent space (10x vas) to create the box.

Agreed about the DTS-10... You could make it look like a piece of furniture complete with fake doors and fake drawers and trim.

My IB is going to be unique in that the IB will be venting into a room that has a sump pump. The room is 312 cu.ft. (more than 10x vas) and completely closed off to the rest of the house... insulated and sheetrocked. I know that it's still going to pound the hell out of the house but not any worse than if I had a really good sub or subs.

Now you guys are REALLY getting excited!!! This will be installed REALLY SOON!!!
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post #24 of 62 Old 05-19-2010, 06:35 PM
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Penngray,

My comment was really directed to those who may not be familiar with IBs. Besides the great sound of IBs, my next favorite attribute is being able to have earth moving sound with only a smallish pair of monitors in view (at least that's what my wife told me to say).

BTW I'm a big fan of your thread on the QSC clones. You have really added a lot to the controlled directivity discussions.

Thanks,
Darrell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post

Penngray,

My comment was really directed to those who may not be familiar with IBs. Besides the great sound of IBs, my next favorite attribute is being able to have earth moving sound with only a smallish pair of monitors in view (at least that's what my wife told me to say).

BTW I'm a big fan of your thread on the QSC clones. You have really added a lot to the controlled directivity discussions.

Thanks,
Darrell

No problem.

Im still learning and screwing up the waveguide designs

A new build is coming again!!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #26 of 62 Old 05-20-2010, 05:23 AM
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Actually, 16" x 50" footprint, Penn.
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post #27 of 62 Old 05-20-2010, 05:46 AM
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thanks, I was guessing, didnt think its was important to look. I know the 16, I couldnt remember how long it was

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post #28 of 62 Old 05-21-2010, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I always find it funny when someone posts arguing with me about the merits of an IB, considering I have one in my family room


For example, I could argue that the IB is tthe hardest build period because most people do not have adjacent space (10x vas) to create the box.

Not trying to highjack here but this thread had got me thinking. I have a
5'x6'x20' storage room directly behind my screen wall. I was just getting ready to build a couple of 2' cubed sealed subs with 18" FI drivers and a EP4000. (I have not bought the hardware yet)

How much difference in performance for an IB setup compared to two subs like these?

Location: Beaverton, Oregon
My Dedicated Home Theater Room
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post #29 of 62 Old 05-21-2010, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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You could definitely get away with a smaller amp to save a few bucks. Try mocking the builds up in WinISD to compare.
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post #30 of 62 Old 05-21-2010, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCaboNow View Post

Not trying to highjack here but this thread had got me thinking. I have a
5'x6'x20' storage room directly behind my screen wall. I was just getting ready to build a couple of 2' cubed sealed subs with 18" FI drivers and a EP4000. (I have not bought the hardware yet)

How much difference in performance for an IB setup compared to two subs like these?

Use 4 of the cheaper Fi IB specific drivers. You'll hear low stuff the small boxes could only reproduce if you used a Linkwitz Transform circuit. The distortion will be lower since you have 4 drivers splitting up the workload.

Quote:
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Try mocking the builds up in WinISD to compare.

This provides some rough data, unfortunately sims aren't able to differentiate sound quality differences....
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