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post #31 of 55 Old 09-03-2010, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


"Compresion ratio is 4.73 to 1"

that seems high for long term durability.

Hi LTD02

High compression compared to what?

Try a simulation of the horn or any FLH and go larger than the ratio I chose. You will end up with a horn that makes this one look small.

The ratio is a balance in between what will work in a acceptable package and what will or will not shred a driver. A higher compression ratio of 7:1 will get you a much smaller horn. But that is on the edge of what will shred a driver with ease. For pro sound SPLs the ratio is a bit high but not a death knell to the correct driver. For home use it is of no practical consequence. The TRIO12 is a very well made driver that is well suited to this task. In fact for the money it is one of the best 12" sub around. I have not been able to cause it any undue harm. And I have taken it out and reinstalled it a couple of times already to check it out.

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post #32 of 55 Old 09-08-2010, 04:50 AM
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nice build and great info, writeup, and pics.

added it to the index.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #33 of 55 Old 09-11-2010, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Sweet!

Where is the thread?

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post #34 of 55 Old 11-02-2011, 09:08 AM
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Mark... The newer version of this design has the horn mouth on the long face of the box instead
of on the end as pictured in this thread ...how does that change effect the horn's response?
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post #35 of 55 Old 11-02-2011, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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No change. Before the exit of the pressure wave there is no discernable difference between an end exit or a side exit. That is as long as the openings remain the same area.

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post #36 of 55 Old 02-04-2012, 11:18 PM
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Nudge.

Trying to scour the ends of Google for more info/ impressions on this one.

Anyone?
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post #37 of 55 Old 02-05-2012, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
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So what have you found?

There are a number of independent people that have built and posted their impressions. There is the original impressions of a group of people that listened to it. And there is my writeups on three forums. What more do you want? It really works. Gives some of the lowest high quality bass that you will ever hear from a twelve inch driver. As configured it bests almost every fifteen inch driver you will ever get. Loudest lowest bass I have ever done. And I have been designing cabinets and doing consulting work since 1989. The only thing I ever did that was louder was a five fifteen monkey coffin LLT I did in 1997. But I have to say the horn sounded cleaner. It sounds like live instruments. Very low distortion. Not everyones cup of tea. We have all been conditioned to hear low frequency distortion as louder. When low frequency reproduction is very clean and loud it takes a bit of getting used to.

Here are some locations:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwo...bwoofer-2.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...aded-horn.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...sub-build.html

http://larchive.avsforum.com/www.avs....php?t=1378775

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/clubs...ml#post2222280

http://creativesound.ca/details.php?model=TRIO12HORNKIT

Maybe you know all about this. Maybe there is something new.

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post #38 of 55 Old 02-05-2012, 09:30 AM
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Mr. Kravchenko

Yes, those were the threads I've found already. The DIY Ottawa meet impressions pretty much sold me on the idea.

Taking possession of my house in March, and am honestly up in arms with that sub design to shoot for. I have tonnes of leftover sonotube from my first build, just sitting in my parents' basement, so wanted to utilize them as they take up a lot of space (aside from convenience). If this route, I think I'm set on a sealed SSD18 or Mach 5 IXL15.

The idea of running horns just intrigues me so much, though (despite their [audible?] drawbacks, but hey, nothing's perfect). My original goal was decent output down to 10hz, and at the end of the day, I think I'd rather something with that experience, as opposed to winning the numbers race, due to the limited budget.

Being Canadian-sourced is icing on the cake, and the Trio12 having XBL should keep the distortion numbers in check, if I'm assuming correctly.
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post #39 of 55 Old 02-05-2012, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12andy View Post

My original goal was decent output down to 10hz, and at the end of the day, I think I'd rather something with that experience, as opposed to winning the numbers race, due to the limited budget.

Good plan - 10Hz is extremely impractical (and expensive) with horns.
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post #40 of 55 Old 02-06-2012, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
(despite their [audible?] drawbacks, but hey, nothing's perfect)

No draw backs if very low distortion is your aim. Just a little getting used to. Recordings you thought had loud low bass will sound different. Recordings that have low bass will blow you away. Movies will blow you away. But the sub is not an omnipresent rumble. It speaks when it should. And when it speaks, believe me you listen. Lots of fun.

And yes as wolfie says. Ten hertz is nothing more than an exercise in excess. There is nothing down that low in the 99.999% of recordings out there. Away back when I had hair I built a five fifteen LLT tuned to 9hz. It went the way of the Dodo. Not worth the space.

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post #41 of 55 Old 02-06-2012, 10:16 PM
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Nice work Mark! ... Would be interesting to see the hornresp sims and measurements both in REW. Hornresp tends to make things look peaky due to the scales used. You can easily export from Hornresp into REW ...

For anyone wanting to do this ...

1. File/export
2. Open excel file (delete 2 columns before SPL) ... save
3. Import in REW
4. Adjust levels

Often it ends up looking smoother, depending on your settings. You can see more easily how close you have come to the model.
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post #42 of 55 Old 02-06-2012, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwmkravchenko View Post

A higher compression ratio of 7:1 will get you a much smaller horn. But that is on the edge of what will shred a driver with ease.

Have you ever experimented with ~10:1 like is used in some 1" exit drivers? It's a hoot! The one PoC mid-bass I did couldn't take much power even with a plywood disc bonded to it to stiffen/mass load it, but it was deafening with efficiency around 112 dB/2pi, so with today's more robust/powerful drivers it's probably viable in an infra-bass sub horn as long as it's XO'd fairly low since it won't have much usable HF BW, same as a TH, but its tiny rear chamber should protect it below Fc well enough.

GM

Loud is Beautiful if it's Clean! As always though, the usual disclaimers apply to this post's contents.
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post #43 of 55 Old 02-07-2012, 05:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Paul there are measurements in the introductory paper on the CSS website:

http://creativesound.ca/details.php?model=TRIO12HORNKIT

Greg.

Yes I have done much higher than 4:1 compression ratios. You are spot on the effects. But as you say how hard you push these horns can be a bit of a crap shoot. Since Hornresp has been able to do particle velocity you can do some interesting testing in regards to what happens at the higher ratios. There is some serious wind inside them there horns!

I'm not posting to many new designs in much of a show and tell format. BUt here is a picture of a box I did over the weekend. Backloaded horn. Almost flat to 30hz. I did a demonstration and presentation of these little monsters. Some of the stuff can be found here:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/clubs...ml#post2894215

The guys brought out some very top notch original design work. A real treat to listen to.
LL

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post #44 of 55 Old 02-08-2012, 03:53 PM
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Those are really cool, Mark, which drivers did you use?
From reading the diy thread it said that you kept upping the cross over freq.
I finally dumped the LPF on my horn and tuned the hpf to match. Any drawbacks to going this route? Sure sounds good.
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post #45 of 55 Old 02-08-2012, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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No draw backs. Should work well.

The driver will be released in three days. Cool as can be. Probably the lowest distortion driver I have ever fooled with. And it sounds spectacular.

The configuration is in a back loaded horn. And it starts to unload at 30 hertz, still has output at 23 hertz.

We had it going in a presentation up to 110 db with 10 watts. That was with ten watts!

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post #46 of 55 Old 02-08-2012, 04:12 PM
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Mark,

I think I'm pretty much set on this design, but the only thing that's discouraging me is all the woodworking that's involved. This fold seems a tad more complex than the THT/ F-20.

I've never built a cabinet before, and have only wielded a router.

As one who can follow instructions to a T, and is quick with grasping techniques, how difficult would you describe this project to be? Could a woodworking newbie get this all sealed up over a dedicated weekend?
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post #47 of 55 Old 02-08-2012, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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What tools do you have?

A skill saw, will cut things to length.

A home despot or what ever can do the large dimensioning.

So where is the big problem? The bracing is not that hard, a jig saw and some patience will work. The glue recommended is the savior of all wood butchers. Fills just about any messup.

If you are in trouble find a guy that will build it for you.

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post #48 of 55 Old 02-09-2012, 08:55 AM
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The instructions for this horn are some of the best I have seen for any DIY project. I would recomend that if you don't have a table saw experience have home despot cut you 2 sheets of osb into 15-1/2" strips length wise.
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post #49 of 55 Old 02-09-2012, 09:26 AM
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Mark: I have a brand new Mastercraft plunge router (been itching to use!), and should have my uncle's jigsaw lying around somewhere. Canadian Tire has a sale on the Mastercraft circular saw, so I'm pondering on jumping the gun and grabbing it. Couple of sawhorses couldn't hurt, either.

Cortga: Glad to hear that.
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post #50 of 55 Old 02-09-2012, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Basically here's the poop. Get the rough cuts done. It's four sheets. Two sections are 32 x 92 if I remember correctly. The rest is 15 1/2" strips that you can get cut at the same place. You cut them to length with either a skill saw or a jig saw or even with patience and a router.

The instructions are for anybody who knows how to safely use the tools. You can build his if you have the patience. The outcome is one badass subwoofer.

Mark
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post #51 of 55 Old 02-09-2012, 09:50 AM
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Randy, Grab that circular saw and build yourself some saw horses first then maybe a workbench, at that point you be able to build a badass horn with confidence. fair warning though. I bet you can't build just one kinda like a potato chip
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post #52 of 55 Old 07-01-2014, 08:03 PM
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WOW- Amazing build. I am adding this to my bookmarks for sure.

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #53 of 55 Old 07-02-2014, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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post #54 of 55 Old 07-02-2014, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwmkravchenko View Post
Quotedespite their [audible?] drawbacks, but hey, nothing's perfect)


No draw backs if very low distortion is your aim. Just a little getting used to. Recordings you thought had loud low bass will sound different. Recordings that have low bass will blow you away. Movies will blow you away. But the sub is not an omnipresent rumble. It speaks when it should. And when it speaks, believe me you listen. Lots of fun.

And yes as wolfie says. Ten hertz is nothing more than an exercise in excess. There is nothing down that low in the 99.999% of recordings out there. Away back when I had hair I built a five fifteen LLT tuned to 9hz. It went the way of the Dodo. Not worth the space.

Do you still feel the same given newer modern movies do have content below 20hz now?

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post #55 of 55 Old 07-02-2014, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you still feel the same given newer modern movies do have content below 20hz now?
Let's put a few things on the table so that there is a even understanding.

Yes there are a few movies that have 10 hertz content.

This sub is good down to 14 hertz.

Do you realize how many subs you would need to actually hear 10 hertz?

As in how much air that needs to be shifted in your room?

Then compound the number of woofers. 8pcs of 12 inch drivers will be in the ball park. Good drivers, as in ones with at least 18mm X-max each.

The sonic difference between 10 hertz and 14 hertz?

Band limited I'd be hard pressed to tell. By band limited I mean limit the signal coming in to 14 hertz, not down to 10 hertz and see if you can tell the difference. And I'm quite used to working with subs that play very low. I work as a consultant for Funk Audio. I have tested them near field at levels that were honestly nauseating, outside on ground plane measurements. Nathan has but a few subs that are in a class all by themselves. And even his dual 18 with 24 kilowatts just beats this horn loaded sub.

The real money in music is around 60 hertz and up to 150 hertz.

And most of the special effects in movies even if they are down that low have a boat load of content that will kick butt as harmonics higher up than the lowest point.

I have been shown the spectral analysis of War of the worlds and a few other movies.

Yes there is content down that low.

But as I have said.

This sub is 28 feet long. 14 hertz is it's minus 3db point.

I seriously do not think you would be asking for more.
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