Orion vs Abbey - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 141 Old 08-22-2010, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Hi Kevin,

I suspect I know why you state this, but could you elaborate? What if one is pursuing two channel, would you say Geddes is at a disadvantage if high SPLs are not required?

Thanks

I'm not prepared to make a strong statement like that!
But Siegfried Linkwitz main goal is good reproduction of two channel classical music.

Kevin
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post #62 of 141 Old 08-22-2010, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Hi Kevin,

I suspect I know why you state this, but could you elaborate? What if one is pursuing two channel, would you say Geddes is at a disadvantage if high SPLs are not required?

I wouldn't say that. Monotonic directivity sounds more natural, and Earl's speakers measure well at that. More directivity reduces side-wall influcences, and Earl's speakers do well there too.

The sensitivity may not be buying you much, but it doesn't hurt.
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post #63 of 141 Old 08-23-2010, 03:56 PM
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I have appended polar maps to illustrate my explanation above:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post19085432

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post #64 of 141 Old 10-08-2010, 03:58 PM
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bump. this is a good one. let's keep it going.

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post #65 of 141 Old 10-08-2010, 04:19 PM
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But the Orion has been 'superseded' by version 4 and the Nao Note has the potential to knock it off its mantle so it's not a fair contest

explore the music
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post #66 of 141 Old 10-09-2010, 06:28 AM
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You will find some interesting discussion from some former Orion owners who now own Geddes speakers in this link. Even with the new developments on the OB side I think an objective listener would find the overall characteristics of the sound from a well designed CD waveguide speaker superior in the average listening room.
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post #67 of 141 Old 10-09-2010, 08:17 AM
 
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I agree with others who've suggested that this is and always will be an apples and oranges comparison. What Geddes has been doing is a far cry from what a number of others have been doing recently to emulate his brand of "controlled directivity". The acoustic lens Geddes uses is a primary component of what makes his system different - something all the E-wave copycats completely ignore. Without equalization boosting high frequencies, Geddes speakers would be unlistenable.

I've read posts of those who've experienced the Geddes OS designs that have remarked how when someone stands in between a speaker and a listener in close proximity to the listener - tonal balance in the upper registers completely falls off the map. This is a clear indication of how Geddes seeks and has accomplished his goal of reducing high frequency energy distribution to the listening target periphery. With other more traditional speakers, the reflected energy fills in the gap. With Geddes' design, there's a gaping hole. Having acknowledged this - is this a more natural result or more realistic sounding result than what a dipole or OB design would render? This is where I believe the argument in favor of controlled directivity monopole designs fails.

The above outline of Geddes' design should not suggest that other designs don't have similar traits. In recent years, I've focused heavily on the use of BG planar tweeters in line source layouts. They too exhibit high levels of directivity with gradually tapered off axis high frequency response. Stand between them and a listener and the effect is very noticeable.

With open baffle designs, the focus is much more on eliminating reflections at lower frequencies where there is a great deal more acoustic energy available to continue to reverberate. And as Linkwitz rightfully points out, OB is closer to the theoretical ( and some would say practical - myself included) ideal of a true point source than anything that has been built to date. Anyone who's experienced a properly set up dipole or open baffle with a close mic'd recording can attest to the degree of realism that is created - something the Geddes design and all other monopoles simply can't create. Sound is omnidirectional in nature so OB/dipole is by definition a step closer to ideal - this cannot be ignored. The notion that JohnK has created something entirely new or an improvement on OB is essentially a farce. You cannot maintain a true dipole radiation pattern at frequencies significantly above 2.5 khz. The Nao Note "improves" upon the Orion because of the BG Neo 3 's built in directivity - not because of some absurd claim to extending the dipole "figure 8" pattern up past 6khz.

The controlled directivity approach seeks to take the room out of the equation by severely limiting upper frequency dispersion. Depending on the recording, this can and often does yield a sound field that is not as "natural" sounding as a dipole or OB would. The OB/dipole approach seeks to primarily reduce the effects of room response on lower frequency reverberation while essentially permitting higher frequency radiation to disperse as it otherwise would from a point source in free space.

The attempt to morph OB into some sort of full range CD device is silliness from the start. The very nature of dipole and OB recognizes the importance of the reflected sound field while the CD approach of Geddes et al. seeks to eliminate it entirely. Any talk about the spaciousness intentionally dialed into a CD system with 10 ms and later reflections outside the CD zone is pure window dressing and afterthought B.S. Every room is different. There is no standard room implementation that one can design for in terms of proximity of the speakers to side walls just as there's no standard OB implementation for all rooms dictating distance to back wall. These variables are too highly room specific to become part of any specific design criteria.
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post #68 of 141 Old 10-09-2010, 11:31 AM
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Deleted....

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post #69 of 141 Old 10-09-2010, 01:06 PM
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Deleted....

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post #70 of 141 Old 10-09-2010, 01:49 PM
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i feel bad saying this, but my feeling is that villas is a troll looking for fights, not looking for truths. he and i had some back and forth in another thread, and when i conceded on one of his points and chose to pursue it, he disappeared. zilch, penn, doug, if you could delete your posts that are responding to him...that would cut off his food supply. then he can choose to either adapt or go away.

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post #71 of 141 Old 10-09-2010, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

villastrangiato, who are you on DIYAudio.com?

He had the same name on that forum... the account was disabled. I'm afraid LTD02 is right. I deleted my previous post.
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post #72 of 141 Old 10-09-2010, 04:01 PM
 
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For the record, I requested that my account be disabled at DIY. The environment there is hostile and imbecilic with people claiming that sound waves reflect off themselves at the open end of a transmission line terminus. They are so clueless about the basic fundamentals of acoustics - they continue to cling to 50 year old theories using outdated electrical circuit analogies to model such basic acoustic phenomena as open ended pipe resonance. And anyone that offers a more enlightened, modern understanding is attacked relentlessly with the tacit approval of similarly technically challenged moderators that allegedly are responsible for curtailing the unruly exploits of the circle of jerks.

Just about every forum has it's regular bunch of Neanderthals masquerading as experts. The pecking order of each circle is firmly established and dedicated to praising the pack leaders while attacking anyone new with a different viewpoint. Same old stuff. Very little that is new gets exposed in forums because of this situation.
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post #73 of 141 Old 10-09-2010, 05:01 PM
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I remember you now. You showed up at HTGuide at the beginning of the year as well. Seems like those threads were axed.
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post #74 of 141 Old 10-09-2010, 05:20 PM
 
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I remember you now. You showed up at HTGuide at the beginning of the year as well. Seems like those threads were axed.

I was banned there because I refused to share details of a recent build. Actually, we had some good discussions concerning the assumptions inherent to the plane wave equation among a few other concepts. Yes, there was some antagonism by a few of the same individuals who troll DIY - that seems to be inevitable. But as soon as I declined to present data on a 3 way tower that was under construction, I got the boot.

I don't recall any threads getting "axed". A couple were locked or closed because the usual trolls started in with their usual personal attacks and the discussion degenerated into nothing beyond personal attacks. However, there were some useful threads that appeared to expose some common misunderstandings - like this one:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=35655
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post #75 of 141 Old 10-09-2010, 06:12 PM
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"And furthermore, I have not been banned from any forum. I currently belong to several - AK, AudioAsylum, Home Theater Shack....yada yada yada. You clearly have me confused with someone else...."

[That's two bans and one disable we know of now.... ]

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post #76 of 141 Old 10-10-2010, 03:59 AM
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Honestly, After thinking about it I have no concerns who you are, what you have done on other forums.

I will just say that your posts on this forum (all 16) are highly subjective and mostly inaccurate. Welcome to AVS but like ever other DIY site (They all are very good in some way) we will not let subjectivity slide.

The reason I asked who you are on DIYAudio. Is because you seem to have knowledge about Geddes and in other posts you have hint that you have built many speakers. Im looking for those designs. Do you have links??

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post #77 of 141 Old 10-10-2010, 05:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Honestly, After thinking about it I have no concerns who you are, what you have done on other forums.

I will just say that your posts on this forum (all 16) are highly subjective and mostly inaccurate. Welcome to AVS but like ever other DIY site (They all are very good in some way) we will not let subjectivity slide.

The reason I asked who you are on DIYAudio. Is because you seem to have knowledge about Geddes and in other posts you have hint that you have built many speakers. Im looking for those designs. Do you have links??

Coming from someone who disses the engineers at Paradigm - proclaiming your confidence in Ricci instead - and then shortly thereafter deleting everything you said - I'll take everything you just posted with a mighty big grain of salt. For the benefit of others who might be reading this - I'd pose the simple questions:

What specifically in the last 16 posts was subjective?

Was any of the data submitted in favor of the use of more smaller subs versus fewer larger ones false? Was it inaccurate?


Were any of the links (other than the Rick Roll) false, subjective, misleading - or anything other than factual?


Talk about subjective crapola - your post above is nothing but subjective. Try sticking with facts when you attempt to discredit someone who challenges you on your "facts".
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post #78 of 141 Old 10-10-2010, 10:43 AM
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random thoughts....

dipoles such as the orion benefit from being placed well into the room. the much delayed reflected sound off the front wall can provide for an increase in sense of spaciousness. linkwitz was pretty excited when he added the back tweet to his orion for this reason. that effect can be achieved with rear facing horns. was it thomasw who conducted such an experiment? i recall seeing an open baffle bottom end with a dual front/back horn loaded top.

the idea of binaural recordings played back over headphones with subwoofers to provide tactile sensation seems about as close as we can come to recreating the audio experience, but that is kind of like wearing 3-d glasses at movies. something...not sure what...is lost.

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post #79 of 141 Old 10-10-2010, 10:49 AM
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i just had an idea...

what about mounting some horns on the ceiling to fire into the front wall in order to create the sense of spaciousness?

at first i was thinking that such could be accomplished digitally, but it can't. the sound must come from splashing the entire front wall.

hmmm...are these spaciousness providing speakers... #8 and #9 in the 9.2 system? :-)

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post #80 of 141 Old 10-10-2010, 02:58 PM
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As it so happens I have an extra set of HF horns (crossed at 5Khz) sitting around so I could try this pretty easy since it's an digital active setup.

How far does the tweeter have to be from the back wall? How low does it have to be crossed?
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post #81 of 141 Old 10-10-2010, 04:29 PM
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imaging cues are roughly in the 1-8khz band. distance to the front wall would have to be delayed by at least 10ms, though more may be better. essentially mounting them right over the listeners head and aimed at the front wall may be an interesting experiment, assuming you sit somewhere around 10-15 feet from the front wall. increasing the delay may also be worth experimenting with. i can't say that i have seen anything like this. i've seen putting additional speakers on the wall, but that is just increasing the number of point sources. this is different. it is increasing the whole ambient sound field.

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post #82 of 141 Old 10-10-2010, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

random thoughts....

dipoles such as the orion benefit from being placed well into the room. the much delayed reflected sound off the front wall can provide for an increase in sense of spaciousness. linkwitz was pretty excited when he added the back tweet to his orion for this reason. that effect can be achieved with rear facing horns. was it thomasw who conducted such an experiment? i recall seeing an open baffle bottom end with a dual front/back horn loaded top.

the idea of binaural recordings played back over headphones with subwoofers to provide tactile sensation seems about as close as we can come to recreating the audio experience, but that is kind of like wearing 3-d glasses at movies. something...not sure what...is lost.

Actually, I believe it is the lateral reflections with longer delay times that create the sense of spaciousness. The front wall thing is just a necessity for an OB speaker that has radiates significant energy in that direction. I believe SL suggests a diffusive front wall to disperse the reflected sound throughout the room. Geddes, on the other hand recommends an absorptive front wall - and bass-damped but reflective side and rear walls. This still creates the desired sense of spaciousness.
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post #83 of 141 Old 10-10-2010, 09:14 PM
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The environment there is hostile and imbecilic with people claiming that sound waves reflect off themselves at the open end of a transmission line terminus. They are so clueless about the basic fundamentals of acoustics - they continue to cling to 50 year old theories

Still trashing me on other forums after all this time eh Courtney? Sheesh, get a life. For the record, what you just wrote is your (mis)interpretation of what I said, not what I really said. It's all documented in the threads at DIY and HTG for anyone who gives a sh** (I don't, you're a fool.)

Dennis H
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post #84 of 141 Old 10-11-2010, 05:44 AM
 
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Still trashing me on other forums after all this time eh Courtney? Sheesh, get a life. For the record, what you just wrote is your (mis)interpretation of what I said, not what I really said. It's all documented in the threads at DIY and HTG for anyone who gives a sh** (I don't, you're a fool.)

Actually Dennis, in the thread I posted above concerning the plane wave equation, you don't appear quite as incompetent as you usually do. I think I was being kind by not posting this one where you're quoted as saying:


"Exactly, Chad. Per my simplistic example above, the so-called reflection at the open mouth is caused by a pressure decrease as the wave expands into open air so it has inverted polarity. To travel down the pipe and arrive back at the mouth in phase, it has to travel 0.5, 1.5, 2.5, etc. wavelengths. The pipe length is half that or 1/4, 3/4, 5/4, etc. wavelengths. At lengths of 2/4, 4/4, 6/4, etc. you get dips as the reflections arrive back at the mouth out of phase. That's where stuffing the line comes in -- let the low stuff through and filter out the higher frequency peaks and dips."
(from Dennis Murphy)



-which can be found here:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpos...3&postcount=65

and is a part of this thread:


http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...ght=augspurger


That laughable quote, where a sound pressure wave exiting a tube (transmission line terminus) somehow reflects off of itself - "caused by a pressure decrease as the wave expands into open air so it has reverse polarity" - that is a thing of beauty . It actually has been framed and is sitting on the wall of my office for all to see. It has served as exhibit A proof that not everything you read on internet forums is useful or correct.
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post #85 of 141 Old 10-11-2010, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

imaging cues are roughly in the 1-8khz band. distance to the front wall would have to be delayed by at least 10ms, though more may be better. essentially mounting them right over the listeners head and aimed at the front wall may be an interesting experiment, assuming you sit somewhere around 10-15 feet from the front wall. increasing the delay may also be worth experimenting with. i can't say that i have seen anything like this. i've seen putting additional speakers on the wall, but that is just increasing the number of point sources. this is different. it is increasing the whole ambient sound field.

Seems to me that the frequency and delay requirements would make this impossible for me to implement easily.
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post #86 of 141 Old 10-11-2010, 10:28 AM
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the delay requirements are taken care of by the placement. with horns above the listener and aimed at the front wall, you get about 1ms of delay for each foot to the front wall. that is why i suggested putting them over the listening position.

the frequency response is pretty much the frequency response of any small horn. it wouldn't really need anything other than a protective cap. then the "ambience" horns could be run with the mains on perhaps a second main channel.

i could see them being set in a receiver to come on with music and be left off for movies.

when linkwitz added the rear tweets to his orions, he really went crazy with how much they added to the experience and linkwitz is a pretty reserved guy. he gets the credit for the idea. i was just thinking about applying the principal to horns.

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post #87 of 141 Old 10-11-2010, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the delay requirements are taken care of by the placement. with horns above the listener and aimed at the front wall, you get about 1ms of delay for each foot to the front wall. that is why i suggested putting them over the listening position.

the frequency response is pretty much the frequency response of any small horn. it wouldn't really need anything other than a protective cap. then the "ambience" horns could be run with the mains on perhaps a second main channel.

i could see them being set in a receiver to come on with music and be left off for movies.

when linkwitz added the rear tweets to his orions, he really went crazy with how much they added to the experience and linkwitz is a pretty reserved guy. he gets the credit for the idea. i was just thinking about applying the principal to horns.

My HF horns only go down to about 3-5Khz IIRC (They are old Gauss 1502's and I have not measured them so I could be wrong) and the mid horn only covers 250-6000hz.

Also the idea of mounting a horn over the LP is just too messy, even for me . But then again if it was just an ity-bitty small horn...

What I was envisioning was just adding a rear facing HF horn directly behind the forward facing one. This is still possible if split the HF signal, add a delay of 10ms and then amplify separately. I have everything I need except a digital delay. But even if I had the delay I'm still missing about 3 octaves...

Having said that I have a CD and horn that'll cover 500-12Khz, but they are very large. I could 'fly' them above the main horns, but they hold their directivity down to 500hz, so they might be to 'tight' to give enough ambiance. Not to mention the WAF.

I'll most likely be ordering a dcx in the up coming months for a subwoofer project. I could temporally implement it as a delay for this idea if you think one of my collection of horns and drivers would work.

I've also got a B&C DE10/ME10 which might be well suited to this task, but I'll have to check the specs to see how low it goes.

BTW I assume they make some kind of XLR 'Y' splitter, I'd need one of those too.

FWIW I just posted up some pics over a LHF, so you can see what I'm working with.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post297297
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post #88 of 141 Old 10-11-2010, 11:16 AM
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wow, that's some history there. why is the old stuff so cool?

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post #89 of 141 Old 10-11-2010, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

wow, that's some history there. why is the old stuff so cool?

Yeah there is something about those big multicells that's just sexy. Pitty they're so bloody heavy. That's going to make it difficult to strip and repaint if I keep them.

Anyway I just realized that unless I were to go to a four way crossover, the rear facing HF horn will have to cross at the same frequency as the front firing one. Which of course gets us back to the original problem of the limited 6Khz+ FR.

Guess I could do some fudging by adding a passive x-over into the mix, but that would be a bit of work to do right.

Seems like this would be a good project for someone with the more typical two ways with HF horn crossing at 1Khz or so.
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post #90 of 141 Old 10-11-2010, 12:38 PM
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i don't think they look any better than modern designs, i just like the fact that they are part of the heritage. something about that makes them very cool, but i don't know why. kind of like the lansing iconic. that may be the coolest speaker of all time.

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