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post #1 of 479 Old 08-22-2010, 05:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Its been way too long since illka has been out of picture and I believe we should bring back some sub testing. Let's try to find someone who has the equipment and space to do it. Volunteers? I know Ricci said something about trying to get the equipment together to do it but don't know how much space he has. So if anyone has any ideas just fire away.
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post #2 of 479 Old 08-22-2010, 06:05 AM
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I think TheEAR might have both the money and curiosity to want to do it. Time, however, might not be something he has a lot of.

I have more time than I do money and also have an area I could do some testing. If anyone wants to ship things to me, I could do it

YID DIY
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post #3 of 479 Old 08-22-2010, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I am in the same boat with money and space. My in laws have a 40 acre farm and their house sits nearly 2000 feet off the road plenty of space. I have time to do it, but little more than rew to run tests. I believe I read theEar saying that his time is limited so he may not be able to, but you know he has plenty of ammo for testing. He has multiples of just about everything.
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post #4 of 479 Old 08-22-2010, 09:32 AM
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I have the same mic as Illka used and a custom preamp, the time but not the location. But I have HOLM, REW and Soundeasy and all the amps and cables etc. Just need someone with sub(s) down this way willing and interested and somewhere to do it.
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post #5 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Its been way too long since illka has been out of picture and I believe we should bring back some sub testing. Let's try to find someone who has the equipment and space to do it. Volunteers? I know Ricci said something about trying to get the equipment together to do it but don't know how much space he has. So if anyone has any ideas just fire away.



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post #6 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 09:05 AM
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Funny - Audioholics just posted that they were going to do a comprehensive "Ultimate" subwoofer shootout and was talking like it was going to be cost no object reviews with tons of measurements and it quickly moved into far less then "The Ultimate" shootout IMO...

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ad.php?t=67724
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post #7 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Funny - Audioholics just posted that they were going to do a comprehensive "Ultimate" subwoofer shootout and was talking like it was going to be cost no object reviews with tons of measurements and it quickly moved into far less then "The Ultimate" shootout IMO...

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ad.php?t=67724


Audioholics decided to go back to the real world.

"Based on manufacturer feedback, we are going to be selecting more practically and affordable sized products that people can actually put in their homes. Each product must be under $3k and under 5 ft^3. The entrees will be listed on this page once all of them have been finalized."
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post #8 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes and after reading just a few pages of that it looks as if it will be a kind of one day or weekend type thing where as I am thinking more of a long term standardized tests like illka did. Will be looking into the audioholics thing though. A piece of me doesn't like that they made it $3000 AND less than 5 cubic feet. That really limits the upper end or "ultimate" piece of their title. I ran into the same type of reservation from certain manufacturers when I did my sub shootout. A couple I had emailed didn't like the idea of their products being put against larger more powerful subwoofers, which could obviously hurt their sales. I understand it but from a consumer standpoint wanting to get the best product regardless, a tiny expensive subwoofer may not help them. Their type of testing, yes I would like to see the dts-10 as well as some seaton stuff and jtr, but also some high end (read...expensive) stuff like the Wilson thor's hammer. Solid built enclosure, but its still just a large ported dual 15".
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post #9 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_palmer_cass View Post

audioholics decided to go back to the real world.

"based on manufacturer feedback, we are going to be selecting more practically and affordable sized products that people can actually put in their homes. each product must be under $3k and under 5 ft^3. The entrees will be listed on this page once all of them have been finalized."


Weak Sauce !!!!!
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post #10 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Weak Sauce !!!!!

+1. ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZzzzzzz

This basically precludes 85% of the sub designs that a DIY'er would care about, leaving only small sealed setups of 15" drivers or less.

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post #11 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 10:18 AM
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I've got the time and enthusiam to do this. Sort of have a location but I dunno how I will get power there. Use my jeep as a generator? Also, I don't have any measuring equipment. I'd be down to do it though.

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post #12 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkiller4299 View Post

+1. ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZzzzzzz

This basically precludes 85% of the sub designs that a DIY'er would care about, leaving only small sealed setups of 15" drivers or less.


DIY subwoofers are not allowed in that Audioholics test.

As Ed Mullen posted in that thread:

"We know SPL drag racing hasn't lost its appeal in the forums, and while an ultimate subwoofer shootout with no size/weight/price limits might provide fodder for bench racing, it really doesn't provide the average consumer with a lot of useful information that he can rely upon to make informed purchases."

"Let's face it, everyone loves to talk about monstrous lunatic fringe subwoofers, but relatively few people actually purchase them. It's quite easy to design/build a WOMD when there are no size/price/weight limits, and SVS has several prototype subwoofers which positively annihilate a PB13-Ultra. That doesn't prove anything except that the laws of physics are still intact."
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post #13 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Funny - Audioholics just posted that they were going to do a comprehensive "Ultimate" subwoofer shootout and was talking like it was going to be cost no object reviews with tons of measurements and it quickly moved into far less then "The Ultimate" shootout IMO...

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ad.php?t=67724

What are your subs cuft again?

I still think your custom build or Bosso's builds fit the consumer realm.

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post #14 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

DIY subwoofers are not allowed in that Audioholics test.

As Ed Mullen posted in that thread:

"We know SPL drag racing hasn't lost its appeal in the forums, and while an ultimate subwoofer shootout with no size/weight/price limits might provide fodder for bench racing, it really doesn't provide the average consumer with a lot of useful information that he can rely upon to make informed purchases."

"Let's face it, everyone loves to talk about monstrous lunatic fringe subwoofers, but relatively few people actually purchase them. It's quite easy to design/build a WOMD when there are no size/price/weight limits, and SVS has several prototype subwoofers which positively annihilate a PB13-Ultra. That doesn't prove anything except that the laws of physics are still intact."

That was what I was getting at regarding my sub shootout. He sent me about the exact same thing in an email regarding his subwoofers. And like I said, I completely understand what he is saying about being put up against larger subwoofers, but the mix I had at mine was so varied you couldn't really put anything into a category. I had anything from 10" and 12" bic and outlaw subs all the way up to worx and Danley professional items.
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post #15 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 03:01 PM
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That's why it needs to be a Forum Participant designed and run test, people with nothing on the line. I have a feeling with test's run by AH and others with friendly ties to manufacturer's (website advertiser's) the products will never be given an honest shakedown. It will be like modern children's sports where there is no loser, everyone wins, hurray!!.

Then I imagine the manufacturer's won't be too keen either. They already have all this great free advertising and marketing from forum users based on mostly subjective feelings and hearing. Having them actually be tested in a controlled environment head-to-head may actually show them to not be as good as enthusiastic owner's articulate in their grand stories of bass.

In regards to the complaints AH heard from the manufacturer's, I don't see how including DIY and SPL drag-races would harm these companies as long as all the data was presented clearly including all costs including materials and finishing for the DIY. This way a reasonable individual can see that while XY speaker was the best, it cost $X,000, and took 50 man/hours. The manufacturers only need to sweat if they think/know some low-cost alternative is going to meet/beat their $$$ sub.

In the end for most it comes down to the subwoofer with the highest low distortion dB/ $. I hope some of you hear can come up with something, with all the recent new offerings and upgrades, this segment definitely needs a solid statistical review base.
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post #16 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post


What are your subs cuft again?

I still think your custom build or Bosso's builds fit the consumer realm.

OD is 13.3 cu ft, not your normal everyday mans sub size at this point. I don't think something like that will fit the norm. They may have the looks factor going for them, but by no means would pass a WAF factor in the size range IMO.

Bossos blackbird subs singularly are super cool, but once your start stacking them WAF starts to look at them like totem poles, not that they aren't attractive, I find them to be freakin amazing and the forethought of scalability is spectacular, but just not the norm or comparative to the regular everyday mans sub.
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post #17 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 04:20 PM
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haven't we already identified most of the parameters that matter for core performance? most subwoofer performance isn't a mystery anymore. at this point, performance seems fairly predictable.

it is always fun to see the final measurements, but basic results should not be surprising at this point.

it might actually be easiest to pass around a "woofer tester" in order to get the t/s specs from the drivers in a bunch of different commercial designs. from that and knowing the form factor, fairly accurate models can be built. hey now, that is an idea!

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post #18 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 06:03 PM
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Performance at the limit is not predictable and must be measured.

Even though the Audioholics test won't be the big boys of even the commercial realm it is still good info. I am disappointed that Funkywaves isn't entering something a bit more potent, but I'm sure that it and the Rythmik will do well regardless.

Still planning some tests of the various subs that I own, but almost everything will be DIY except for the Danley kit. I've got the equipment, the area and the subs. I just have to get the time.
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post #19 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Josh, if you give me enough notice I may be able to make the trek up your way to help out some way to make that happen. Name a weekend and I will see what I can do.
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post #20 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 06:52 PM
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Will do Brandon. After the B&C cabs are done, getting this together is next on the list. Probably early October? Hard to say.
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post #21 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 07:12 PM
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I have the time, my backyard is a .5 acre and I have outlets in 3 different locations. I just don't have the equipment or know how to measure but I guess could figure those out. I would rather test indoors and EQ every sub within +/-3 db's in the same location or optimal location. Once winter hits one can still measure that way.
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post #22 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Will do Brandon. After the B&C cabs are done, getting this together is next on the list. Probably early October? Hard to say.

Early October could work for me. Just keep me posted.


Mk, lots of factors would go into doing it indoors and still keeping everything on the same level. Exact placement would be key, but even then you wouldn't really be seeing what just the sub can do. You would also have the room gain adding to what's going on so even a less than worthy subwoofer may look great and its just because of your insane room gain on the low end.
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post #23 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Early October could work for me. Just keep me posted.


Mk, lots of factors would go into doing it indoors and still keeping everything on the same level. Exact placement would be key, but even then you wouldn't really be seeing what just the sub can do. You would also have the room gain adding to what's going on so even a less than worthy subwoofer may look great and its just because of your insane room gain on the low end.

It would benefit all the subs. I would EQ all the subs to make them flat. Ground plane measurements are nice but some subs will have an advantage with say the port and driver on one side compared to opposite sides where in a room the sub that measured better outside(front port and driver) does not do as well. It could flip flop.
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post #24 of 479 Old 08-23-2010, 09:11 PM
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"Performance at the limit is not predictable..."

how do you mean?

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post #25 of 479 Old 08-24-2010, 11:13 AM
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"Performance at the limit is not predictable..."

Tell me how much compression will occur between 55 and 70hz with the driver of your choice in a sealed 130L enclosure with a nominal 120db sweep level referenced to 50hz at 2m outdoor gp. How much distortion and noise will be present in the 10-20hz octave during this sweep and what will the harmonic makeup be? For that matter what will the simple FR at 80db nominal look like exactly? Perhaps the vc melts? Maybe it bottoms out? Who knows what can happen. You can make reasonably educated guesses but without measuring it you won't know for sure.

The commercial subs that Audioholics is going to test...Can you say when their limiters or protection circuits will kick in, how aggresive they will be, whether they even have these circuits, what the base FR will look like, where they will compress first or hardest, how much distortion will be present, etc? How much 25hz signal can that PSB output at maximum?

For example who would've predicted that the 13" driver in the SVS PB13 Ultra coupled with the 750w rated amp would perform as well as it does? I certainly wouldn't have. SVS has always had good products but it is a substantial leap over their previous 12" offerings with only slightly more cone area and power.
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post #26 of 479 Old 08-24-2010, 11:19 AM
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"For example who would've predicted that the 13" driver in the SVS PB13 Ultra coupled with the 750w rated amp would perform as well as it does?"

i'm not saying that measuring isn't better than models, just that the models that we have today are pretty good. in my paper on quantitative analysis of subwoofer performance, the predicted score for the pb13u was 56.9, the actual score was 57.

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post #27 of 479 Old 08-24-2010, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"For example who would've predicted that the 13" driver in the SVS PB13 Ultra coupled with the 750w rated amp would perform as well as it does?"

i'm not saying that measuring isn't better than models, just that the models that we have today are pretty good. in my paper on quantitative analysis of subwoofer performance, the predicted score for the pb13u was 56.9, the actual score was 57.

Not that again... What was my XXX ported again...like a 120 or something crazy like that?
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post #28 of 479 Old 08-25-2010, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Talking with Ricci about maybe a good hard weekend's worth of testing in the fall sometime. Date and location aren't exact but maybe we can work something out.


Was wondering if anyone in the south or Kentucky/Indiana area has a tht that would mind us maybe testing it.
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post #29 of 479 Old 09-05-2010, 12:51 PM
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"Not that again... What was my XXX ported again...like a 120 or something crazy like that?"

the tested subs aligned according to their designs, strikingly so. your xxx ported is what statisticians call an "outlier". models often lose their prediction power at the extremes. since your xxx ported design is an extreme design, i would not apply the model for that design.

the question that was asked was who could have predicted the performance of the pb13u. the model pretty much hit it dead accurate. why do you hold this model in such contempt? craigsub provided the data. i simply performed the regressions in order to identify the key variables.

honestly, i think that something is getting lost in the communication...and i'll take fault for that.

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post #30 of 479 Old 09-05-2010, 01:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandonnash View Post

Talking with Ricci about maybe a good hard weekend's worth of testing in the fall sometime. Date and location aren't exact but maybe we can work something out.


Was wondering if anyone in the south or Kentucky/Indiana area has a tht that would mind us maybe testing it.

No THT, but I would be willing to help if I am not doing soccer that weekend. I do have ulterior motive though. I want to advance my skill on how to take and read measurements. My subs these days are pretty basic. Sealed 6.5CF 18" Maelstrom-X, two 1.2CF sealed TC Sounds and a 2.2 CF sealed Shiva-X. The TC Sounds drivers with full copper sleeve are great drivers. Just wish that they were 18's. If you guys want to do this on your own, fine. If you want help, I am willing if able.
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