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post #61 of 343 Old 09-30-2010, 08:51 PM
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Did the DIY spud thread get nuked? There were a bunch of new posts in it this AM and I was going to read them over lunch... then it was just... "gone".

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #62 of 343 Old 09-30-2010, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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If it's the thread I'm thinking of, it's probably for the best. It wasn't heading in a good direction.
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post #63 of 343 Old 11-03-2010, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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It's a good thing I planned this build for springtime 2011, because I keep learning new stuff. Thanks, Mike and Soho

My last revision of this design has a phase problem, so I went back to the drawing board. Several times. I wanted to improve reactance annulling too, so the woofers' excursion is better controlled.

After giving it much thought, I decided to keep this one three segment, even though I can get four to look better. I'm just not sure right now my brain's going to let me fold a four segment anytime soon. That said, I'm still playing with reactance annulling and may want to be making the mouth bigger because this revision manages to get the size down to 515 liters and the woofers want some more space. It may yet go four segment - can't say for sure right now.

So, until I make up my mind on that I have no new fold diagram this time - only some screenshots and a hornresp record of the design as it is now.

I'm happy with this one so far. I could be happier (especially with the impedance graph), but that's the way it goes with tapped horns. Tradeoffs do happen.









 

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post #64 of 343 Old 11-03-2010, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklahoma Wolf View Post

I wanted to improve reactance annulling too, so the woofers' excursion is better controlled.

I'm curious what you mean by this since there's no sealed rear chamber per se in a TH and AFAIK there's only one way to get any measure of reactance annulling in what is otherwise a BLH which design characteristics I see none of in yours or any other DIYers designs to date.

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post #65 of 343 Old 11-03-2010, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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You can still do it to an extent in a TH - it's just you only have the woofers' suspensions to work with - no chamber. Basically, I'm trying to get the horn itself to slow down the woofer diaphragms on those excursion peaks.

You can somewhat tell when you're starting to get there when the excursion peaks start looking all slanty-like

I actually have versions of the old version 3D fold that do this better than 3G above. But again - phase issues with those. Might go back to that design yet as my brain further assimilates this stuff.
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post #66 of 343 Old 11-03-2010, 10:59 AM
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Hmm, while moving in the right direction TH design wise, I don't believe this conforms to any sort of reactance annulling, at least not as I understand it.

Here's the sort of TH response (1 W/2pi) I consider at least somewhat reactance annulled using a theoretical 12" driver for a stillborn PA app that Eminence or similar could easily make, i.e. no 'unobtanium' or high $$$ component spec requirements. Indeed, for all I know there's now a driver with close enough specs as this is a several year old design now:

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post #67 of 343 Old 11-03-2010, 11:15 AM
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OK, I feel I should expand on the Throat(acoustic) Impedance a little here.

There are two forces at work here, and the problem one is Reactance. This is the mass of the air in the horn working against the driver. In HR it is the red trace. The second effect is Resistance, which simply means the horn and driver are working together. Black trace.

It may be best to think of it in terms of a Slinky. Most everyone has bridged one across their hands at some point it time. Remember how you had to move your hands at just the right speed to get it to send the ripple back and forth from hand to hand? That is like resistance. The crap you got when you messed your timing up is like Reactance. The weight/momentum of the spring was not liking all that bouncing you were doing.

Ok, with that out of the way...

Here is a pic showing the throat impedance of an "ideal" hyperbolic horn.
Notice the scale.

The horn was setup with RA the Leach way. This involves tuning the rear chambers volume. The idea is to match the Reactance with Resistance at the cut off, to cancel the Reactance with Resistance.

Now an issue is that at these sizes both effects are so tame that it doesn't really matter. Lets' take 90% of the throat size away, and re-adjust the cutoff to match to see something a little more familiar.


Now a horn without a rear chamber can't really work the same way, as it has no rear chamber. Easy enough. The trick is to find where the drivers suspension does as similar job.

Here is a TH straight off my sheet where I have matched things up with the right horn/driver combo.


Here is the same TH, after a very minor tweak in HR.
Of course I designed the sheet around my methods.

Here is the results of the Nd 1/4WL horn straight of the sheet.


I am no expert, and I'm sure GM will correct me if I have misspoken, but this is how I see it right now. As GM said though, the DIY horns that mimic this (that I know of) can be counted on one hand... two.

Hope some of this helps.

EDIT: make that three. two were mine.
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post #68 of 343 Old 11-03-2010, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

I am no expert

You're closer than I am

Very helpful post - thanks.

Quote:


As GM said though, the DIY horns that mimic this (that I know of) can be counted on one hand... two.

Hope some of this helps.

EDIT: make that three. two were mine.

Heh - give me time. I haven't made the sawdust yet.
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post #69 of 343 Old 11-03-2010, 12:24 PM
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OK, still don't believe what you're doing is reactance annulling, at least not enough to call it as such, but I'm no expert either.

Don't recall seeing any of your designs posted with measurements. If so, links please.

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post #70 of 343 Old 11-03-2010, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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This getting closer? This is revision 3D with the phase corrected and negative taper removed.



Edit - mouth is bigger too.
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post #71 of 343 Old 11-03-2010, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPM View Post

OK, still don't believe what you're doing is reactance annulling

Reactance annulling is a three dollar word used to describe a simple phenomenon. When you horn load a driver the acoustic load of the horn adds to the Mms of the driver, resulting in system resonance far lower than the original Fs of the driver, sometimes as much as an octave lower. A horn works best near Fc if the system resonance is close to Fc. With a rear chambered horn you can make the chamber small enough to push the system resonance back up to where you want it. The results can be most easily be seen on the electrical impedance chart. With no rear chamber you can't reactance annul per se.

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post #72 of 343 Old 11-03-2010, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklahoma Wolf View Post

This getting closer? This is revision 3D with the phase corrected and negative taper removed.

It might be a little too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GPM View Post

OK, still don't believe what you're doing is reactance annulling, at least not enough to call it as such, but I'm no expert either.

I was in no way implying that my examples were best case scenarios.

I picked a random driver known to be used in a DSL TH, and the sims were based on real world possible uses in a sub. As a result the HC needed to be pulled down to ~220 to give a survivable compression ratio for the "ideal" horn. I also used the standard OD position for the front tap, and ran it down until the low 20s.

The idea is the get the resistance, and reactance to cancel out at the cut off. If I put the front tap at the throat, and altered the compression and flare it will spit out a graph similar to yours.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

With no rear chamber you can't reactance annul per se.

It's semantics really, as TD says otherwise.
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post #73 of 343 Old 11-03-2010, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post
It might be a little too much.
Too much? What do these words mean

Seriously though - I figured that massive impedance spike probably meant I was pushing things just a wee bit. Compression ratio in that one is a little over 3:1 though... better than some of my other attempts which had it over 4:1. I don't want to go that high.

Edit - one minor mouth tweak later:



I like the looks of this version. Not too wild about the response, but it's ok for a three segment. Corner is at 17Hz but the excursion is in control to 15Hz.

lilmike deserves a lot of credit for helping me on this version - he suggested the L34 value and a bigger mouth over my 3E version, and I ended up running with it.

 

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post #74 of 343 Old 11-04-2010, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Reactance annulling is a three dollar word used to describe a simple phenomenon...........A horn works best near Fc if the system resonance is close to Fc.

With no rear chamber you can't reactance annul per se.

Agreed.

No, not if we think more in terms of how we do it instead of why we do it. From this POV we have to find a way to mimic the rear chamber's function of balancing out the acoustic loading on both sides of the diaphragm and at least in a sim using Prof. Leach's math I've accomplished this, so lacking any more technically correct term for this type of BLH, TH alignment, 'reactance annulled' works for me.

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post #75 of 343 Old 11-04-2010, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Updated version 3i in my last post for the correct mouth area of 1337 cm squared. Didn't think that small a change was worth a new revision. Going to fold it and call it ready for sawdust I think.

Sure, I could tweak it some more and/or start working on the four segment version, but the tweaking has to stop sometime.

This may not even need a subsonic filter, here in my home theater. It'll be getting 360W, and the electrical impedance graph is suggesting that it won't be getting enough power to get in trouble below the corner. Well... it might have issues in the single digits, so I'll still use the Reckhorn set at 10Hz.

Man... treading water in the deep end of the horn pool is hard. Good thing I have a 6' 8" wingspan
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post #76 of 343 Old 11-04-2010, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

I was in no way implying that my examples were best case scenarios.

The idea is the get the resistance, and reactance to cancel out at the cut off. If I put the front tap at the throat, and altered the compression and flare it will spit out a graph similar to yours.

And I in no way implied they were, only that the plots/explanation you presented to support OW's understanding that one only has the driver's suspension to work with doesn't meet my understanding/criteria of a BLH or TH equivalent of a reactance annulled FLH, so not sure what your point is, especially now that you've agreed with me that to get reactance annulling in a BLH, TH requires a considerably different alignment than conventional horn design wisdom dictates.

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post #77 of 343 Old 11-04-2010, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklahoma Wolf View Post

Sure, I could tweak it some more and/or start working on the four segment version, but the tweaking has to stop sometime.

Well... it might have issues in the single digits, so I'll still use the Reckhorn set at 10Hz.

Man... treading water in the deep end of the horn pool is hard. Good thing I have a 6' 8" wingspan

Yeah, especially for designs that are intended for deep down in the room dominated BW and especially down below our acute hearing BW and if you don't have a map of the room's acoustics, then it's a real crapshoot as to whether what you design can be made to perform well; though in recent years the huge advances in relatively inexpensive digital room correction has made it mostly moot beyond ensuring the design has a low enough cut off and power handling for the app.

With today's single digit BW and need for up to near live dynamics capability, multiple critically damped subs spread around the room in 3D and tweaked digitally is where it's at for me if extensive passive room correction isn't an option.

Yeah, horn design is 'simple' like a fully articulated/adjustable independent suspension is 'simple', the basic concept is simple, but the 'Devil's in the details' to get it to perform at peak efficiency for the intended app.

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post #78 of 343 Old 11-04-2010, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GPM View Post

the 'Devil's in the details' to get it to perform at peak efficiency for the intended app.

Yup. I've felt the pitchfork on several occasions

Knowing how my Tang Band horn performs in room gives me somewhat of an idea how this one's going to do. I may need to EQ... we'll see.
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post #79 of 343 Old 11-04-2010, 11:28 AM
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Ok, I just finished this, and am afraid it reads like a argument. I'm going to go back through, and try to work that out, but I wanted everyone to be sure that this is not my intent. I am not the best at getting what is in my head across in print. My intent is to throw as much out there, so a common point can be found.

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that one only has the driver's suspension to work with doesn't meet my understanding/criteria of a BLH or TH equivalent of a reactance annulled FLH, so not sure what your point is, especially now that you've agreed with me that to get reactance annulling in a BLH, TH requires a considerably different alignment than conventional horn design wisdom dictates.

That was not exactly my intent, it was more along the lines of I could make a bunch of graphs that looked like yours if I didn't do a realistically sized sub horn, and built a midbass horn instead with something like an EPS15-500. It's all about relative size.
See example:


As the size of the horn shrinks compared to the ideal, the throat peaks will get larger, and the electrical ones will be harder to suppress as well. It doesn't means that reactance annullance isn't taking place anymore, to me. If you look at the Nd horn traces from the other post you can see this pretty clearly.

I don't think a TH requires a considerably different alignment than conventional horn design wisdom dictates to get RA going. Now you can do it unconventionally, and I think I have figured out what you are doing, but playing with things myself, it seems like you can do it with normal designs, but I haven't worked it out 100% yet.

Here is an EPS15-500 straight off my sheet with only L12 reduced to .10, at 443l.


Here is the sim altered up to 750l, and 2.5:1 comp. At this point the mouth has become large enough that the tap really isn't necessary anymore, but it is there for them all.


Here it is again at 1500l, and 2.5:1 comp.

I could not get it any better from here without raising the compression a good bit.

It's all about scale, to me. Here is the same horn crammed into 150l.


If you use the HR sample tool on the Acoustic Impedance the relative location of the Reactance & Resistance are pretty close to each other, except for the peaks.

So at what point is it not reactance annullance anymore? I would really like to nail this down. If possible.
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post #80 of 343 Old 11-04-2010, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

So at what point is it not reactance annullance anymore? I would really like to nail this down. If possible.

+1... I was using the sample tool and trying to line things up a little better with reactance vs. resistance, and couldn't really seem to get it much better than it is now.
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post #81 of 343 Old 11-06-2010, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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New fold warranted a new revision - 3J. As drawn, this is now 78" x 40" x 13.2."

This fold results in a length error of +10.5cm. As a result, the acoustic impedance graph no longer looks as pretty. Not sure if this is too big a deal or not... I may go in and correct the length error yet. Shouldn't be that awfully hard... maybe I'll just make the whole thing a couple inches shorter.

The last revision's throat and mouth size didn't work out in terms of being easy to build, so they've both been tweaked upwards very slightly.

I forgot to remove the wood over the mouth, but it's at the top left. Same basic fold as Wolfhorn II.



 

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post #82 of 343 Old 11-06-2010, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Took me the rest of the day to do this, but I think I have the final folding diagram done. Then again, I've said that before. This one comes up 9cm too short, but fixes all step errors present in my last fold.

On reflection, I reckoned that it was better to have the horn come up slightly too short rather than slightly too long. Reason being, I calculated the length using straight diagonal lines in the corners. I figure the sound waves are going to move in a more parabolic fashion, and perhaps pick up that last 9cm in the process (or maybe more).

No new Hornresp model for this one - it's so close to the last one there's no major difference in any of the screenshots.

This fold is 77" x 42" x 13.2." I even remembered to finish the horn mouth this time

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post #83 of 343 Old 11-23-2010, 09:50 PM
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cz, how deep?

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post #84 of 343 Old 11-24-2010, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklahoma Wolf View Post
Took me the rest of the day to do this, but I think I have the final folding diagram done. Then again, I've said that before. This one comes up 9cm too short, but fixes all step errors present in my last fold.

On reflection, I reckoned that it was better to have the horn come up slightly too short rather than slightly too long. Reason being, I calculated the length using straight diagonal lines in the corners. I figure the sound waves are going to move in a more parabolic fashion, and perhaps pick up that last 9cm in the process (or maybe more).

No new Hornresp model for this one - it's so close to the last one there's no major difference in any of the screenshots.

This fold is 77" x 42" x 13.2." I even remembered to finish the horn mouth this time

Wolf,

How are you calculating path length error?

JSS
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post #85 of 343 Old 11-24-2010, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
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With a line down the middle and diagonal lines in the corners.
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post #86 of 343 Old 11-26-2010, 08:56 PM
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How do you go about measuring to determine the resonance frequency of a flh's rear chamber? I just finished mine but don't know how to actually do the measurement. thanks
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post #87 of 343 Old 11-27-2010, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you mean measure or simulate? I'm not actually sure how you'd measure it without measuring the whole horn.
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post #88 of 343 Old 12-18-2010, 04:37 PM
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Any updates on this endeavor?
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post #89 of 343 Old 12-18-2010, 06:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Not much... driver buying is scheduled to happen next month sometime once the dust settles from the holidays. Then comes the long wait for favorable weather. I'd love to get started on this yesterday, but my health can't handle woodworking outside in winter.
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post #90 of 343 Old 12-31-2010, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Couldn't help myself. Saw some room for improvement and now I have me another new revision. Unless I can figure out all of a sudden how to fold a multiple flare horn, this is it - I'm not touching this one anymore. Of course, I've said that before, too

This time, I drew outlines of the woofers in there. I'll share the actual Sketchup file with the dimensions when the building gets started. There are three very, very small step errors in this one... I may go back in and fix that yet. And by small, I mean under 5mm. I'm getting better at folding... this one only took all morning

New dimensions are 79" x 42" x 13.2." This version is a bit longer and a bit bigger (533L) with a slightly lower corner and bigger flare. Still a fair bit thinner than my last TH project though. I'm ok with it as it is now. I'm expecting this design to hit mid 120's at my listening position in my room... if it even gets close to that I'll be ecstatic.



Hornresp screenshots with 350W in, half space:









 

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