15" TC sound LMS build - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 108 Old 09-09-2010, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I hope to start on a proper box build on the weekend for the sub I finally decided on. It was sold to me as a prototype TC LMS sub seems to be very close to the TC LMS-4000, Regardless it sounds fantastic in the quick small sealed box I built for it to test it in.
The plan is to put it in a ported box so I can take full advantage of the limited wattage I have to supply it with (EP1500) I need to to (or I'd really like to) keep it under 8 cubit feet. I've run it in WinISD in a few enclosures and it seems to do well in anything from a 7.5-9.5 cubic foot tuned to 18hz with little difference. So I'll be planning this out in the next few days and hope to start on it on saturday or sunday.
I really like the shape of the JL Gotham sub so I think I'd like to go with a shape very close to that. I was debating going with the stacked MDF or BB cut out to the shape but that'll be allot of wood and allot of waist never mind the time involved. So I thought if it's possible at all I would make a shell 3/4"-1" thick hallow out of 18 gauge steel and fill it with sand. Does the sound like it might work? I can dampen the inner steel with either fiberglass or dynamat if it would cause issues. This is just one of the few ideas that I have in mind and would be the easiest for me since I'm a bodyman by trade and form metal planels on a daily basis. The front top and bottom would be double thick (1.5") BB. Any ideas suggestion? Am I on the wrong path or maybe this will work?

And the only pics i'll have till I start cutting something up, since I'm not a computer guy.(no CAD for you )




Screen shot of the boxes I was modeling as well as the one the sub is in right now. And the specs I was given with the Sub Xmax is 38mm.



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post #2 of 108 Old 09-09-2010, 04:55 PM
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ClintonH, from some previous comments here regarding the LMS drivers, they are not optimized for ported enclosures. I would do a PR enclosure. This will allow you to use a smaller enclosure, somewhere in the 5-7cf range and if you wanted to, you could even tune it lower than 18hz. The LMS driver will do excellent in a sealed/PR enclosure (check Ikka's test).

I have a Audiopulse LMS 15" driver in a PR enclosure, tuned to 16hz in a 7cf box and it's great in my very big room. Like you, my weakness right now is the amp, I'm using a ED LT1300 plate amp. I plan to upgrade the amp to a pro amp that will provide me about double the power I currently have. Even in a low bass efficient PR enclosure, the LMS driver will take serious power to get the most out of it. If I were you, if not now, then perhaps in the future, I would upgrade your amp to something more powerful.
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post #3 of 108 Old 09-09-2010, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I may upgrade my amp in the future but not for awhile, just don`t have the need at the moment.
For the PR box that`s the same as a ported box just no space wasted by the port and easier to retune no? I can`t see how there would be any difference and WinISD tends to model the exact same in either of the same size and tune. If you look at the WinISD above the sealed box drops the bottom end off very rapid compared to the vented. I was also basing the box on the tests on the Home Theater Shack according to the tests the only other DIY sub and only one commercial (svs ultra) that did better than a vented LMS 15" was it`s big brother the 18" LMS. Maybe I`m reading this stuff wrong or I have not found the right build threads, by all means I do not want to put the hours into a new box and have to redo it because it`s no the right type/size.

Anyone have any opinion on the use of a steel shell filled with sand?

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post #4 of 108 Old 09-09-2010, 08:54 PM
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If I'm not mistaken, the reason that porting a LMS is not recommended is because the driver moves so much air that you would need a big wide/long port which would make the enclosure very big (more than your simulations). The PR option is about $250 more, but it's a more practical solution.
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post #5 of 108 Old 09-09-2010, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok well I was running the model with a 6" port, took that into account. The 6`port takes about .5 cubic foot of space so that`s why the 8.5 cubic foot limit, need the space for the port. I`m not sure you would hear any port noise at the volume it would take to have any in the first place. But I can`t say for sure that`s why I wanted some opinions for some of the more experienced guys on here before I got to the final plan stage, start to build stage. Hope to get some kind of reply but if not guess i`ll wing it.
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post #6 of 108 Old 09-10-2010, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok well I guess I'll just go with my plan then since I haven't got any replys that say there would be any issues. Maybe I'll post some pics up when it's all finished up in a few weeks.

Thanks
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post #7 of 108 Old 09-10-2010, 10:18 AM
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I would say go as big as you can. If that's 9.5ft, then that's what you have to work with. High excursion 15's push the limits of 6" ports just like high excursion 18's push the limits of 8" ports.

The 18" LMS-5400 isn't bad in ported boxes because it moves so much air, it's bad in ported boxes because it's more suited for a smaller box, one that's too small to fit in a proper port. The FiQ18, while it doesn't have the same Vd as the LMS-5400, it's suited for large boxes, ones big enough to fit 8-10" ports.

Clinton. Model your sub with the amount of power you will use (what's the Ep1500 put out bridged, 900w?) and with a 6" port, check your port velocity. If the velocity is too high, another option is to build a slot port with a greater cross sectional area than the 6" round port.

The sand filled metal option is interesting, but I don't have enough metal knowledge to help. It'd all be uneducated speculation.

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post #8 of 108 Old 09-10-2010, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for input LB. Ill play with it some more in WinISD and see what i can do with the port AV. I Can't really use a slot port with the odd shape the box will be, if i can't get a port to work i can always just do a smaller sealed box and call it a day. Guess i should have thought about the purchase a little more, it just modeled so god in a 7cubic foot box. :/ Im sure everyone is sick to death of all the builds so im not going to bother doing a build thread, no point if It's just for myself. might post a pic when its done. Thanks again guys.

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post #9 of 108 Old 09-15-2010, 11:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I wasn't going to post any build pics since there a ton of buildso n here already but LTD02 asked me to post em up so here's a little progress.
I went with a sealed design again since the TS data I have may or may not be correct and I just don't want to spend the time to build something that "might" work. So this works our to approx 120 L after driver and braces, it will be double top/bottom and face 3/4" MDF. I wanted to go with a curved design but didn't want to waist 4-5 sheets of MDF plus the dust would be insane. So I opted for the DIY flexi MDF.

I used my home built panel saw to do the cutting and slits, at one point the bottom foot was catching so the slits went askew but ti didn't seem to effect the bend so no big deal.





The top and bottom inner panels were cut then laid on top of each other clamped and belt sanded to they match.




And a quick test to see if it was all going to work. That's as far as I got last night only had a few hours.




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post #10 of 108 Old 09-16-2010, 05:52 AM
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Sweet..... Nothing wrong with posting build pics along the way - keeps the thread active and thoughts spawn through discussion. Great looking work there.....
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post #11 of 108 Old 09-16-2010, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Sweet..... Nothing wrong with posting build pics along the way - keeps the thread active and thoughts spawn through discussion. Great looking work there.....

Agree'd. Without build threads, we kind'a lose things to talk about.

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post #12 of 108 Old 09-16-2010, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys, I'll keep updating as long as someone is looking and I'm not just talking to myself here.
Had a chance to take the pics off my phone from last nights work, didn't get too far but it's coming along without issue.

First thing I did was glue and nail the top and bottom sections on, I need to buy more claps since I'm not a woodworker at all I only have a few so that was fairly slow. Then I filled in the voids in the curved section. I saved alot of the MDF dust and just mixed that with Fiberglass resin to fill with. Worked really good, cheap strong and easy.




Then I smoothed out the top and bottom and glued/nailed on the second layer of MDF. Then I rounded it over, I know early in the build just wanted to see what it would look like. And started on the braces, I only got one main brace at the back build. It will have 4 horizontal braces on each side spaced evenly as well as a few vertical between them. Any idea if that would be enough or should I go with more?


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post #13 of 108 Old 09-16-2010, 10:14 AM
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Great job so far!!!
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post #14 of 108 Old 09-16-2010, 04:02 PM
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this looks fantastic.

i'm surprised that you didn't have any tear through on the kerf cuts that deep into mdf.

reinforcement was something that i was going to ask about. the fiberglass resin is a nice solution.

i'm not sure what to suggest for bracing. the curved panel is inherently very strong and you have a double thick top and bottom.

the diy panel saw is pretty cool too.

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post #15 of 108 Old 09-16-2010, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys.
Yep the panel saw was the first thing i built when we bought our house a few years ago. It's pretty awsome way easier than a table saw and hardly any roomtaken up.
Double top, bottom and front. Anyone think i need a magnet brace on this monster or should it be fine as is? Thanks for the replys so far.
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post #16 of 108 Old 09-17-2010, 04:58 AM
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Nice build thread. You guys make it look so easy ! Keep up the pics, maybe some day I'll give a build a try. Threads like this are great instructional too.
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post #17 of 108 Old 09-18-2010, 01:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Nice build thread. You guys make it look so easy ! Keep up the pics, maybe some day I'll give a build a try. Threads like this are great instructional too.

Easy? I absolutely suck at wood work, wish I was better but it's just not my thing.
But progress none the less, Got time to cut some braces and glue them in. I went with a magnet brace, meant to make it bigger around as in side wall thickness but it turned out a bit different than planed. Still should be lots of bracing for an enclosure this size I think.
Braces an front panels cut out.




All glued in, I used construction adhesive to keep everything nice and strong.





Gave the inside a few coats of box liner to make sure everything is all sealed up and glued the front panels on.




So now it's just all finishing stuff which should be fairly easy. Few questions about some things I'm not sure on and need some opinions.

1. The connection terminals, I was going to put them on the bottom since it will have short legs. Anyone see a problem with this or maybe a better location?

2. I'm up 50-50 split on if I should build a lid on either side like the JL Gotham so the grill (If I make one) will be flush. Or should I just round over the edges and not worry about a grill?

Any help and or opinions would be great then I can get this finished for my birthday party next weekend.
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post #18 of 108 Old 09-18-2010, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Nobody has any thoughts or opinions? I get a chance to work on this again this afternoon, or I wouldn't be in such a hurry.
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post #19 of 108 Old 09-18-2010, 10:44 AM
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To say that you are not good with wood is an insult! That is incredible work, I only wish I had skills like that. I guess that's why I made mine using the sonotube. Oh well that's about to change. That is one mean looking driver, as you have read I like to use an pb ultra as a standard and you'll smash it. As far as your questions, there would be no issues with having the terminals on the bottom other than them being in a tight spot when hooking and unhooking the sub, which won't be often I'm sure. If it were mine I would line them vertically on the very back down low, on the crown of the arch. As far as the grill goes, I'm not much of a grill guy. I pretty much remove every grill I have. Especially with a cone that beautiful I'd opt to go without!

Great work!
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post #20 of 108 Old 09-18-2010, 10:49 AM
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Wow, if you suck at wood working I would not even know how to categorize myself.

Build looks great and look forward to when you are finished to see how you like it.

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post #21 of 108 Old 09-18-2010, 10:58 AM
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ClintonH, first of all, very nice build. Even the braces look good and should do a great job of making your box solid. What color will you paint the box? What's the final size of the box (internal)?

It's fine if you put the terminals on the bottom of the box, just make sure you have the space for them. I would leave a least a couple of inches. As for the grill, my LMS 15" looks good without one. The way you're building that box, I'm sure that if you put a grill or not, it will look good either way. Perhaps the grill will give it a more "classic" look.
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post #22 of 108 Old 09-18-2010, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonH View Post

Nobody has any thoughts or opinions? I get a chance to work on this again this afternoon, or I wouldn't be in such a hurry.


Hahhaha You doing this for us or for yourself....

Looking at that box says its all ready for a sweet veneer - although rounded corners on the top suggest its going to get primed and painted... Nice work...
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post #23 of 108 Old 09-18-2010, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for input guys, yeah really wood work is not my strong point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Hahhaha You doing this for us or for yourself....

Looking at that box says its all ready for a sweet veneer - although rounded corners on the top suggest its going to get primed and painted... Nice work...

For me but I have a hard time deciding, either way in my mind would look good so it really doesn't matter. I'd build two cabinets just to see if I had the time, they are fairly cheap to build just don't have too much time to mess with it these days still have house renos to finish. (never ending )
It's going to get primed and painted with a high gloss finish that's a given since I'm part owner in a Bodyshop and I have never touched veneer in my life. Just unsure on the grill and if I should extend the front to incorporate the grill depth. I think I will since it will add a little style to the plan look of the enclosure. I procrastinate to much.
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post #24 of 108 Old 09-18-2010, 11:18 AM
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Nice job on the kerfing, did you do any calcs before cutting?

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post #25 of 108 Old 09-18-2010, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Nice job on the kerfing, did you do any calcs before cutting?

As in for box volume or for the spacing of the cuts?
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post #26 of 108 Old 09-18-2010, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonH View Post

Thanks for input guys, yeah really wood work is not my strong point.

Just unsure on the grill and if I should extend the front to incorporate the grill depth. I think I will since it will add a little style to the plan look of the enclosure. I procrastinate to much.


Get some magnets and sink em now before finishing - magnetic grills are the shiznit....

Your countersunk with the driver now at 3/4, the actual mounting rubber gasket will stick out from the baffle between 1/8 to 1/4". I would say that if you went 1" thick grill you'd be covered nicely - 3/4" the driver may touch the grill, but I doubt it would knock the grill off the box...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/searc...rchid=15929451

Penns thread had some good results... and links for magnets
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=grill
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post #27 of 108 Old 09-18-2010, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClintonH View Post

As in for box volume or for the spacing of the cuts?

Both, I have done 3 kerfed projects...Well Im on my 3rd and Im always curious about how others would do it.

I did samples to figure out the spacing but I have always wanted maybe a good radius formula.

When bending did you use a wet bath towel to get the MDF really moist and then bend it slowly around the top and bottom caps?

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post #28 of 108 Old 09-18-2010, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Get some magnets and sink em now before finishing - magnetic grills are the shiznit....

Your countersunk with the driver now at 3/4, the actual mounting rubber gasket will stick out from the baffle between 1/8 to 1/4". I would say that if you went 1" thick grill you'd be covered nicely - 3/4" the driver may touch the grill, but I doubt it would knock the grill off the box...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/searc...rchid=15929451

Penns thread had some good results... and links for magnets
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=grill

Yep had the rare earth magnets sitting here waiting since before I cut the wood. Stainless Steel or aluminium grill is for sure the way I'll go, I was thinking a custom one like the grill in a 37 Ford just cause I'm a car guy.
I checked on the temp box I have the sub in which also has a 3/4" countersink. The rubber surround actually sicks out the furthest which is appox 3/4" off the flat of the box. So yeah I was thinking 1" at the edges curved out to 1 3/8" or so in the center, I'll have to see what looks good.
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post #29 of 108 Old 09-18-2010, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Both, I have done 3 kerfed projects...Well Im on my 3rd and Im always curious about how others would do it.

I did samples to figure out the spacing but I have always wanted maybe a good radius formula.

When bending did you use a wet bath towel to get the MDF really moist and then bend it slowly around the top and bottom caps?

Wish I could tell ya I had a good formula but I just went with what made sense to me. I drew the radius/top overall shape out on paper full sized then measured what the inside and outside radius was. It showed I loose approx 1.25" for every 10" in length on the inside at the tightest radius. So I figured out how many cuts I would have to make to take that amount out at that length and doubled it. I did that so there was no maybe's because I figured at exact measurements it would be to tight to make the bend and I'd run into having to recut. It worked out well enough.
To figure out the area, I had a box drawn around the shape I had decided on for the top/bottom. I then divided up the empty space along with the 3/4" for wall thickness into triangles, overlapping rather than under so it would err on the side of less. Doubled that for the two sides and I get the area of the odd shape. The only other way I know how to do this is to find the area of an oval LxWx.8 and divide that by 2. Which was fairly close but a bit on the small side since the sides of my enclosure are not as curved as an oval.
Hope this made some sense to you I don't normally plan this stuff all that indepth I usually just come up with a quick plan and build, works most of the time. Oh and no I didn't use any water or anything to bend my shape, just ran some glue on the top/bottom and clapped everything in place and nailed it down.
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post #30 of 108 Old 09-18-2010, 01:26 PM
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one idea is to route the edges for a nice no-grill look, but as was mentioned glue some magnets (neodymium is very strong but may not be necessary) inside at the four corners of the driver, so that if you want to make a grill later it can be held on the front with no holes or anything. home stores may have something that is good enough. 1/2" x 1" x 2" bars for about $2 or so a piece. that size may be overkill though.

here is how they are listed at h.d.:
Crown Bolt 3/8 In. x 7/8 In. x 1-7/8 In. Magnet Block
Model # 97044
Store SKU # 609118
$2.19/EA-Each

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